I am a long-time Windows user. I started using Windows back with Windows 3.1. I went through 95, 98, served a brief prison sentence with Windows ME, moved to 2000, then XP, and now Vista. So, I’ve pretty much used them all. The newest incarnation (Vista) is a mixed bag, to say the least. On my notebook computer, Vista runs pretty well. On my desktop, it can be an annoying experience. I am actually contemplating bringing the desktop BACK to Windows XP Media Center (which is what it originally came with). Windows XP is SO much more dependable.
This mixed Vista experience (and of course the fact that I own and write for a tech website) has led me to pay more attention to Linux. Now, I have also thought about getting a Mac. I may do so at a later date, but I am pretty much resigned to the fact that I will have to pay through the nose in order to “share in the Apple experience”. Linux, on the other hand, is completely free. The problem is that I am not much of a Linux guy. Rich is more the Linux guy around here. I know just enough to be dangerous. So, I was confused by all the myriad of distros out there. There are just TONS of them. How the hell am I supposed to choose a Linux distro? And what did I ultimately settle on (for now)?
Read on…
Ubuntu Linux
The first distro I installed and tried was Ubuntu. Ubuntu has a lot of buzz surrounding it today. It is marketed as a replacement for Windows. The problem is that it is anything BUT a replacement for Windows. As far as Linux goes, it’s a fairly easy operating system to use. But, in my view, it isn’t too much better than other distros available today. In fact, in some ways, it’s not as good. I do like the Add/Remove feature in Ubuntu which allows easy installation and un-installation of applications. That is a life saver today, because installing programs in Linux is REALLY confusing when one is used to the simplicity of Windows.
Driver support was good, but not good enough. Ubuntu could not properly detect my video card, so I was using a big wide screen monitor with 1024×768 resolution. I thought that I could just install the driver and be done with it. Well, how Microsoft of me, I guess! I found an Nvidia driver, installed it, and NOTHING CHANGED. I ended up having to mess with the xorg.conf file in gedit to manually configure the monitor. And each time I restarted the desktop, the mouse cursor would disappear. I had to reboot the whole machine to get my cursor back. When all is said and done, I still did not get the display working correctly with Ubuntu.
Ubuntu has some nice plus points, but it is not a Windows replacement. If you stay inside the Ubuntu box, you’re fine. As soon as that box is not quite big enough, Ubuntu shows it’s true Linux, command-line loving roots.
Kubuntu Linux
I tried Kubuntu as well. Kubuntu and Ubuntu are exactly the same except that Ubuntu use the Gnome desktop and Kbuntu uses KDE. So, essentially its the same operating system with a different face. But, I actually prefer KDE, so I thought I would give Kubuntu a try. Well, being that it is the same Ubuntu core, I had the same driver problems.
I do want to mention that Ubuntu and Kubuntu both have very user-friendly installations. The distro I ultimately installed to my computer had a more confusing installation, but the Ubuntu products have it down in that department.
Linspire and Freespire
Somehow these distros ended up on my radar. It seems these things have been really overshadowed by Ubuntu, but they caught my eye because the company has really tried to make the Linspire products a true Windows replacement. For example, they are not opposed to putting proprietary software into their distro. Thank you! Generally, I really admire how the open source community tries to do everything for free. But, sometimes proprietary is the best way to get the job done. In my opinion, the Linux community sometimes shoots itself in the foot by being so anti-commercialism.
Linspire is built on top of the Ubuntu 7.04 core. What they did, though, was add CNR, the KDE desktop, some specially coded applications, codecs and proprietary drivers. CNR is the software library provided by Linspire. It provides one-click installation of Linux software into the Linspire operating system. Most of the stuff in the library is free, but they do include some commercial software (usually at a discount).
My hope with Freespire was to provide enough of a commercial mix to Linux to make it easier to use. Problem is, not everything worked. For example, when I tried to search CNR for something, I simply got the same screen to reload. That was completely useless. And aside from that, I was having the same driver problems at the start. So, there I was with some annoyances but no easy way to fix it. So, it just didn’t seem polished enough for me.
PC Linux OS
Rich gave me this distro on a CD. I tried it out and I was impressed. Right away, it properly detected my video card and monitor and displayed at the native resolution of my monitor. By this point, this was a welcome relief because most other distros couldn’t get it right. Now, it didn’t QUITE get it right. While showing at the right resolution, the driver was not supporting any of the 3D capabilities of the card. This meant that I could not enable Beryl (which is built in). So, I used the Synaptic package manager to download and install Nvidia proprietary drivers. I restarted the desktop and I was able to enable Beryl with no problems at all. I was floored. So far, PC Linux OS seemed to be awesome. It didn’t have a nice add/remove feature like Ubuntu, but it did have the package manager. I’ll trade the fancy software library for working hardware any time.
The installation of PC Linux OS was not as user-friendly as that of Ubuntu. I was scared that it would format and overwrite Windows and I saw nothing which walked me through it in the install. But, by this point, I was happy with PCLinuxOS so I wanted to install it. I installed a spare SATA drive into my computer and gave the installation permission to format the whole drive. It worked fine and I am now dual booting PC Linux OS alongside Windows XP on my spare Gateway.
Long Story Short
If I am going to use Linux, I need to be able to get my work done on it without being confused. I am a very computer literate guy, but I am also a Windows guy. Linux is a different world, and quite frankly, I didn’t WANT it to be that different. If I have to open up Terminal and type anything into a command line, I’m angry. This is 2007, guys, and I see no reason why I should have to do anything by command line in a modern operating system. Ubuntu is the latest craze in Linux, but it is that distro that caused me to have to learn some of the command line functions. It was ridiculous.
In the end of this latest trek into the Linux world, I come out of it with PC Linux OS installed to my computer. It works well, it detected my hardware properly, and (like magic) I haven’t had to touch the command line even once.
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David,
Part of your experience is because of hardware manufacturers unwillingness to release Linux drivers, so the Linux community in some cases has had to create generic drivers for chipsets. As for your comment regarding the command line, the command line is not an antiquated interface. If you think about it, the command line with parameters permits command shell scripting. Don’t forget that Linux inherits UNIX’s design philosophy, and before Linux, UNIX was the OS for many users, multi processor setups. The are many jobs and processes in a computer that are better controlled by a script than a check off or a field in a window. Just because command lines have been around for a long time does not mean they are invalid. If anything, time has proven their utility. Another thing to consider is scripts tend to work in later revisions of the same OS. Command line arguments tend to be maintained and extended for more functionality. As a single desktop user, you may not appreciate this, but start maintaining a network or many users and machines, and you begin to realize the importance of automating some sys admin operations to save you time and make results consistent. Trust me, it’s work learning the command line, it’s worth learning to shell script, and it is worth spending the time to understand the underlying philosophy of Linux/UNIX. The modularity of the Linux OS (I’m talking more than just the kernel here) allows the OS to scale in many directions. Windows is much more monolithic because of the extra code it employs to encapsulate everything behind a graphical interface and Microsoft is having increasing trouble getting their products out on time because of all that encapsulation.
Afraid of the command line?
Read “In the Beginning was the Command Line” by Neal Stephenson
http://artlung.com/smorgasborg/C_R_Y_P_T_O_N_O_M_I_C_O_N.shtml
It says it all.
Winter
“Linux is a different world, and quite frankly, I didn’t WANT it to be that different. ”
If it weren’t different, what would be the point of changing from what you have now? If you switch to Mac you will discover that it is also different from Windows. You’ve forgotten that once you had to learn Windows. If you want to change to something else, you will have to learn something else. That’s life.
Anyway, I’m glad you found a distro you like so quickly. Enjoy!
Congrats on getting Linux up and running!
I chose PC Linux OS on my machine as well, and I agree. I’m no stranger to the commandline, and I still use it from time to time simply because I know how to do things there, but everything I’ve wanted to do I’ve been able to do from the GUI with PCLOS. My reason for using it was similar to your’s, I have a video card with hard to find drivers. PCLOS was able to detect not only that, but my onboard wireless with no issues at all. The only things that don’t work are some of the extra proprietary keys IBM has on the keyboard.
If you don’t want Linux to be different from Windows, well, there’s no reason why you should use Linux.
Linux works so well _because_ it’s entirely different from windows; if you want the advantages, you have to get used to a different world. Sorry.
You know that in vista you need to use the command-line for some of the more powerful functions, ie, changing the options for its bootloader.
I’m of the opinion that you shouldn’t have to do anything with the commandline, especially when you are setting things up, but being blunt the CLI is so useful when you know how to use it that it’s foolish to say it’s antiquated – that it the windows view because you used to use MS-DOS… the linux shell is much better, much more useful and once you spend some time with it completely indispensable.
MS kept the ability to open a DS prompt for a reason, even if the MS version has nothing on the linux one, the CLI is a very valuable tool.
What version of ubuntu were you using, I’ve found the only version that works properly is 7.10 (testing ver 5), but damn does it work well! Personally I find PCLinuxOS annoying, but that’s mostly because it uses KDE (I find KDE annoying and it’s little pictures childish, it just irritates whereas I find GNOME functional – maybe KDE4 will change all that?) and it’s attempts to integrate NDISWrapper were just a mess at installation time, whereas on ubuntu 7.10 it was all out of the box working, even resolution too.
Given that it’s so easy to install proprietary drivers, software etc (at least in ubuntu 7.10) I tend to see this as a non-issue, but it would be nice to atleast get a big fat message telling you why it’s not included, and a big fat button saying take care of it! This is almost the case anyway, hence my lack of problem.
Personally, I think it’s just a little rough around the edges, and a little spit and polish would do it wonders – along with focus group with the target audience, ie, current (happy) windows users. Then atleast linux would be properly ready – if it would be used is another question. Only just beating Win98 hurts, it hurts bad…
David, thank you so much for having the courage to say what many other Windows users think when they try to use Linux:
WE DON’T WANT TO USE THE DAMN COMMAND LINE!!!!!
The whole problem with Linux is that the true geek crowd has decided that the command line is a great thing, and they look down their noses at people who don’t want to use it. Unfortunately, by acting that way, they are assuring that most desktop computers will be running something other than Linux for the foreseeable future.
What they don’t seem to “get” is that this hurts them as much as it does us. They wonder why they can’t get drivers for some types of hardware, or why certain games aren’t offered in a Linux-compatible format. Well, maybe that’s because only about 10% of the desktop computers run Linux (and that’s probably an optimistic estimate). If you develop primarily for Windows machines, why would you care about a small minority of Linux users, especially when they treat you like bastard stepchildren the moment you express a desire to use a GUI rather than a command line?
Some people say using the command line is easier. Well, some people say playing the piano is easy, but that doesn’t mean everyone can do it. Some people would like nothing more than to take apart the engine on their car and try to make it run with maximum performance (and look down their nose at those of us who take our cars to the quick oil change place), but most people just want to drive their cars and couldn’t care less about what’s in the engine.
Linux users, by virtue of the fact that Linux is still harder to use than Windows, tend to have a higher percentage of the “let’s rip the (software) engine apart and see how it works” people. What they have not figured out is that most users are not like them, and not only that, most users have no desire whatsoever to be like them. They just want to use the computer. They may hate the direction that Windows is taking, they may hate the fact that it is insecure and buggy, but that doesn’t mean they want to become command-line lovin’ geeks.
The geeks, perhaps because of their poor social skills (many geeks have Aspergers’ Syndrome) simply can’t fathom this. They think that because they view the world in a certain way, ever other right-thinking person should too. Therefore, if you express a preference not to use the command line, they feel they must at least jump in and try to correct your wrong thinking (as several here have done). Failing that, they feel perfectly justified in putting you in your place, letting you know that perhaps you don’t “deserve” to use Linux because you don’t have the right mindset (theirs). They may not say it quite that way but it’s certainly how they come across.
I wish someone would start a blog or a forum specifically for people who have used Windows for quite some time, and who maybe want to dip their toes in the waters of Linux, but who do not think of themselves as geeks, and simply want to use the computer without having to learn a bunch of arcane commands. By the way, ever notice that most Linux commands are not the least bit mnemonic? For example, whereas MSDOS used DIR (for Directory) and Apple used CAT (for Catalog), Linux uses ls (what’s that stand for? Linux sucks?). It’s almost as if some sadist decided early on that people would have to memorize a bunch of meaningless commands in order to do anything in this OS.
Anyway, if I were running such a forum, I’d have two rules: If you ever tell another user to use the command line, you’re out of here. You MIGHT get excused if there is absolutely, positively no other way to do some task by using a GUI, but the words “command line” or “command prompt” or “open a terminal window” would normally be considered grounds for being booted from the forum.
And my second rule would be, if you ever tell another user to f’ing Google it, you’re out. If someone asks a question and you don’t know the answer, then simply refrain from replying. Ditto if you DO know the answer but don’t want to be bothered typing it out (or at least pasting a specific URL where someone can go to get the information).
And for crying out loud, you Linux geeks, see your doctors about that Aspergers. There are medications out there that will help you stop feeling like you are God and that your way is the only right way. Just because someone doesn’t want to do things your way doesn’t mean you have an obligation to jump in and correct them! I can guarantee you that such “help” isn’t appeciated. Don’t get me wrong, the world needs the “mechanics” that can figure out how things are done by delving into the innards, but there are also plenty of people who just want to press on the gas (or click on the mouse) and go. Neither group is “wrong” but it is wrong to think that everyone in the world should belong to only one of those groups, both because no one should try to force their opinions on others, and because it never works when you try to do it, but it sure irritates people. In this case, many of the sufficiently irritated either go back to Windows, or go on to some other OS (such as Mac OS X).
Thanks for giving Linux a fair shake. You can read my response to your article on my blog. http://mostlycli.blogspot.com/
You don’t know Jack…post #32
**”Well, maybe that’s because only about 10% of the desktop computers run Linux (and that’s probably an optimistic estimate).”**
This is what GM said about Japanese imports back in the 80s…..
**”Linux users, by virtue of the fact that Linux is still harder to use than Windows”**
My 75 year old mother who knows how to point and click will disagree with you….got her working on Mandriva with her Microsoft Bicycle Games using wine…she is paying her bills on line…thunderbird for mail etc…
**”And for crying out loud, you Linux geeks, see your doctors about that Aspergers.”**
WTF??…
David writes:
Now, I have also thought about getting a Mac. I may do so at a later date, but I am pretty much resigned to the fact that I will have to pay through the nose in order to “share in the Apple experience”.
Exactly where you store your money and how you disburse it in payment for goods and services is your own matter, but please don’t perpetuate this myth about Macs.
Do this simple experiment, let’s say with the Dell Inspiron line, or even the new 1330: Configure your choice with the same specifications, minus the illuminated keyboard and IEEE-1394/800 which will not be available, as the MacBook Pro Core 2 Duo Santa Rosa chip set and LED display.
If you’re interested, or qualify, use the student/educator portal on both Web sites, and get back to us what Dell’s got that will even come close to Apple’s $1799. We won’t even get into Vista vs. OS X, Leopard due in a few weeks.
What I believe you meant to say, and the only kernel of accuracy to this urban legend, is that one can purchase a Windows OS computer cheaper than an OS X OS computer.
Not a fanboy here, as I’ve been using Linux for 10 years now starting with RH 5.1…just a seeker of truth.
Frank
@frank: “…please don’t perpetuate this myth about Macs… Configure your choice with the same specifications…”
OK, I’m game. Using http://dell.com and http://apple.com, I selected these systems respectively (feel free to follow along in your own browser):
Dell Inspiron 530N / Apple Mac Mini
1.8 GHz dual core Pentium / 1.83 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
1 GB 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM / 1 GB 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM
160 GB 7200 RPM Disk / 160 GB Disk
16x DVD+RW Drive / Combo Drive
10,100 Ethernet / 10,100,1000 Ethernet
10 USB 2.0 ports / 4 USB 2.0 ports
IEEE-1394a port / FireWire port
Ubuntu Linux 7.04 / Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger
That’s quite similar hardware – faster Ethernet on the Mac, more USB ports on the PC; the PC can write DVDs and CDs, the Mac only CDs; but otherwise the systems are nicely comparable.
Pricing? The PC is $459, the Mac is $847, or 85% more than the PC. Try it for yourself. It only takes a minute.
Or try a Dell Inspiron Notebook 1420 N vs. similarly configured Apple MacBook – $974 vs. $1099 (I selected a faster CPU and larger screen on the Inspiron than on the Apple, just for fun). Configuring these systems is left as an exercise for the reader.
As long as the topic is price, David’s claim is no myth: Apple does indeed cost significantly more. I’m happy to grant that Apple’s quality of hardware, styling, and service are top shelf; but you *pay* for those features, even (arguably) “through the nose” as David said.
You have to decide if the “Apple experience” is worth the extra money. If so, I’m delighted. Choice is a Good Thing.
I’m not anti-Apple, just pro-truth.
If Linux is truly about choice shouldn’t the Users have a choice to not use the CLI?
If a hardware vendor offers “Closed” drivers shouldn’t a Desktop Linux distribution use them? Is it about the users or the politics of FOSS?
No matter how you fight it Windows has set the standard in look and feel. To get people to switch and feel comfortable may mean you have to look and feel some what similar to Windows. That does not negate in anyway Linux or how things work differently under the hood.
Isn’t the offering of different Linux distributions the reason to give people a choice. If you like the CLI stick with Ubuntu or Gentoo or any other distribution that requires you to use it. IF you like that it’s your choice. However a vast majority of Normal Computer Desktop users are not familiar with the CLI as the only reason in Windows you need to go to the command prompt is to troubleshoot or fix something that’s broke.
The main issue with Linux Desktops that claim to be Desktop oriented is that they’ve disconnected from true Desktop users. They can’t relate. YOu can see it with their users who post comments like Windows is not Linux, The CLI is a powerful tool etc.. The common Desktop user could care less about those comments. They just want it to work like it did in Windows or better. Unless you can offer that you’ve missed the boat.
command line should be optional. if the linux community dreams to convert windows users to linux users, there should be minimal usage of command line. end users are lazy, enough said.
Jared, well said! I was going to write something but you said it better than I ever could have. I have found PCLinuxOS to be the one for me, like they say “it just works out of the box”. I like the forum at PCLinuxOS.com they are friendly and take the time to help.
I still use Windows for somethings but for everyday use I use PCLinuxOS. I am 71 years old and do not want to go back to the “DOS” days of using a computer. Now if you do that is OK, but I think it is OK if I don’t
Oh my it looks like it was Jack who wrote what I liked not Jared. Who ever it was “Good Job”.
If DELL configures a Linux PC the way it does WIN…you will use the command line as much as you do in WIN which is NIL…Mandriva has a control panel to configure just about every hardware and much more options than ther is in the WIN control panel…I have family members using Mandriva and they don’t know what a console or shell or command line is. Everything can be done in A GUI but most things are done faster using the command line..
I give them a fully configured Linux box so there are no issues. Just boot up and click away, much like Windows…no defrag or virus or spyware etc…just a smooth computing experience.
Welcome to pclos. The video driver issue is one of the main reasons a lot of people stay with it. But the more you use it, the more little reasons you get for keeping it.
Best of luck..
I find it odd that an author (David Risley) calls himself an idiot, just because they’re talking about Linux.
I’ve noticed this trend among many people who try Linux for the first time. Its a terrible mindset to be in from the start. You’re not an idiot, you’re just unfamiliar, that’s all. To put yourself down from the start just tells me you’re really not interested in leaving your “comfort zone” of Windows.
When you’re trying something new, your mindset shouldn’t be “how can I take my existing skills to the new thing?”, BUT “What can this alternate or new way offer me? What would be the Pros or Cons?”
Put it this way, would you use your bike riding skills on a skateboard? So why are you doing the same with Linux and Windows? Just because they have a GUI doesn’t mean they’re the same underneath! The power behind Linux/BSD/other Unices is not the GUI, but the CLI. To learn and know the CLI lifts a huge glass ceiling you place upon yourselves.
You should empty your cup of knowledge and start with a “beginner’s mind”. Willing to explore and play with it. (Like a child)
Approaching it this way, and you’ll discover things in a much more pleasant way.
You don’t have to be perfect at it. When you do something wrong, Linux will tell you or records the issue in the log file. (typically located in /var/log). When you something right, Linux says nothing. Regardless right or wrong, its OK to fumble around.
I used to be an MS product user, (been there since MS-DOS 3.03 and Windows 2.0 to Windows XP…Not bothering with Vista)…I have found the transition not too bad. In fact, I’m using Arch Linux instead, as I’m comfortable in CLI from my DOS days.
I started using Linux in 2005. Today, everything I did in Windows, I can now do in Linux. (Actually, I can do far more than expected!)
I suggest giving Linux distros time. The rate of development is quite fast. Maybe try again in a few years time.
As part of the Linux community, we don’t actually dream of converting every Windows user over. We would like to convert a few now and then, but realistically, that’s not the main goal. (Even though some prefer to get as many converted and knocking MS off its porch).
The point is to provide an alternative OS who’s aim is to allow you and anybody else modify, etc to meet your needs. You don’t need to sign an NDA or pay for some stupid license, etc. All one needs to do is comply with the GPL/BSD/etc licenses and do things in respect to the community.
This is why Linux is loved by geeks. Its flexible and highly affordable (monetary wise). Its like clay. Mold it to the shape you like it. Whether it be for desktop, server, cluster, firewall appliance, NAS, robots, digital engine control, missile defence, etc, it doesn’t matter.
I personally think people are better off with other OSs (Linux, OSX, etc) in the long run. Its true that there are limitations at this time, but these issues will eventually be resolved. You might as well take the time to learn something about it now. (use virtualisation via VMware Server or VirtualBox. Both are free and run on Windows and Linux).
Typically, if I must use Windows, I stick it in a virtual machine (Linux is host, Windows is guest) and prevent it from accessing the web. Windows, to me, is only used for apps that I can’t run in Wine. (Yes, CounterStrike Source DOES run!)
A friend of mine talked so much about Linux I tried out a few Live Cd’s and I too was bit intimidated by the sheer number of distributions around. Seeing all the buzz about Ubuntu at the time I installed on a spare PC I had. It worked well enough. My biggest headaches was driver support and installation. I had problems with my old video card and my wireless network adapter. After reading pretty poor documentation for hours much of it assumes your already a Linux geek know how to do basic still like install drivers using the command line. After days trying to get it to work I reinstalled Windows 2000 which I knew worked(with all it’s faults). The Ubuntu worked well enough but in my opinion Linux still has a way to go before it thinks it can challenge Microsoft.
what’s so wrong with the command line? I mean seriously all you have to do is copy some code into it and it works, the only problem is that you have to use ctrl+shift+v rather than ctrl+v