I’m writing this from Ubuntu 8.04 in a live session (booted from USB stick). This *nix distribution runs well, does what I want it to do and runs just fine without complaint. Let’s forget the fact that it’s super-awesome-cool I can just pop in a USB stick, boot Ubuntu, run it, connect to a wireless network with no problems at all and do my work. You can’t do that with Windows or OS X. Let’s also forget the fact for a moment I’ve been using *nix distros off and on since Red Hat 5 (Apollo).
Small note before continuing: “*nix” means Linux or Unix. The asterisk is there as a “wildcard” to signify both, or basically anything that ends in “nix”.
Linux fans have been arguing – very loudly – for years that we should all be using Linux. They say it’s better, faster, etc. and you can easily escape the corporate shackles of retail operating systems by using it. Ubuntu finally comes along which is one of the easiest *nix distros you’ll ever use. It’s got fanatical worldwide support. It’s also got corporate support from companies like Dell.
For all intents and purposes, this is a win. The Linux fans finally got what they were looking for, that being a distro people can actually use as their primary OS if they so chose to do so. Lots of support, lots of apps, all for free, total coolness all around. And recognition where it counts.
Here’s what I don’t understand: There are quite a few *nix fans that say if you use Ubuntu, it’s a “for noobs only” OS.
It is this attitude that, said bluntly, pisses me off about the Linux community as a whole. Even if you muster up the courage, download Ubuntu and say “Hey, not bad.. I think I’ll use this”, fervent *nix fans say you’re not running a “real Linux” – even though that yes, Ubuntu is a real Linux distro and always has been.
It is a truth that Linux’s own community destroys just about any success they achieve outside of server applications. You guys got what you wanted and more people than ever are using Linux, yet you complain. You feel if the OS isn’t “difficult” to use, it’s not worth anyone’s time to use it. You believe that if everything can be done from the GUI without going to a terminal prompt, that’s “too easy”.
I have never yapped at anyone for using any particular *nix distro. Even if they tried it and didn’t like it, I would say “Well, at least you tried and there’s no harm in that.”
Why any *nix fan would yap at someone for using Ubuntu I’ll never know.
My advice for any *nix fan that complains about Ubuntu: Cut the crap. You’ve got far better things to do than be engaged in arguments in your own community about your own offerings. Those arguments are what shoot people right back to Microsoft – and stay there.
I am happy to use a “noob” friendly distro. I have tried them all, and will continue to do so. That is what I love about the community. But the snobbery has to stop for if linux as a whole is to be taken seriously. How can the community grow if you don’t find, introduce, train, and welcome as many “noobs” as possible. I am proud to be free of the M’SOFT virus that plagues so many. I have converted friends and family, but none of us are experts at coding or the command line. Experts should be just that, get off your high horse and show the less expierienced what makes one distro better than another.
[...] this blog entry talking about “even when Linux fans win, they lose.” There’s something about the attitude towards Linux users and which distros they are using. It [...]
If ubuntu is for noobs then I must be a noob. I’m a unix system administrator, and I’ve been using linux since 1993. I’ve heard the wisecracks about ubuntu being for noobs from the peanut gallery from time to time, but seriously, it’s a pretty small minority that make these sorts of comments, and I’ve never heard any explanation.
It’s just people being people, as they are wont to do, so please, don’t put this on “the linux community”
I agree too. Having used Linux since Red Hat 5.2, and coming to Kubuntu from Gentoo, I don’t consider myself a “noob”.
I did try to sort through the massive amount of distros to see which would be preferable to recommend to new users and *buntu is among them:
http://linuxlatitude.blogspot.com/2008/03/which-linux.html
People should not forget that under the hood, Ubuntu is based on Debian, which is hardly a noob distribution, and apart from the top layer of Ubuntu packages replacing the Debian packages, one does not have to stick with the Ubuntu interface. One can choose from xfce, windowmaker, afterstep and many other window managers, and install all of the server type software (DNS, NIS, LDAP, Apache, Squid, Postrgres Server etc) that one wants to use.
People should not judge a distribution solely on its desktop appearance, but look at what lies underneath.
Well said, you can do with Ubuntu anything you can do with any of the other uberleet distros. I’m a long time Linux user, Redhat 4.2 (don’t remember the release name), and I currently use Ubuntu. Yeah, it has some issues but overall, it allows me to use my PC in the most efficient way possible. With more hardcore distros, there’s always some limitation that’s a dealbreaker for me. I’m a Gnome fan and Slackware pretty much disallows you from running Gnome (its possible but a royal pain). Fedora doesn’t work with NVidia cards anymore. SuSE is way too bloated. Gentoo takes too long to install and its package manager is easily broken. Debian suffers a similar fate as Fedora.
That being said, different distros are better for different applications. For my desktop, Ubuntu is the way to go. For my server, I like CentOS, Gentoo, Debian, *BSD, and Slackware. That’s something alot of people don’t realize, everyone lumps all distros together as “Linux” when they should all be recognized as their own operating systems. After all, Linux is just the kernel, the rest of the OS is what really makes it usable from a usermode standpoint. The most important thing a Linux fan can do is try different distros and find out what works for them and where.
I started to write a rather long reply here, but was suddenly inspired to use it for my own blog. Cheers
This article would make sense if those actually were the anti-ubuntu arguments. The real reason people tend to hate ubuntu is canonical. The release crap like launchpad and put it under a proprietary license. Do you want these people in a prominent position in the linux community? Also, having used ubuntu, I hated the sheer un-customizable aspect of it and promptly switched back to debian (the best distro period). In conclusion, instead of supporting a malicious company that leaches off of a community project, why not just go to the source?
How about you use Debian and stop getting into Ubuntu’s business.
Seriously, you come in here and make a post telling people how they are wrong for thinking people don’t like Ubuntu because of the noobness of it. You’re going to tell all of these people, including me, that no one things that Ubuntu is too noob friendly and/or hates on Ubuntu because of it’s fame? Please.
You know what.. Nevermind.
Fantastic. I’m a long time Linux user at work, and I’d rather NOT sit around trying to figure out how why I can’t install a certain program, which used to happen a lot to me.
I switched to Ubuntu after it came out right away because I agree with what they are doing with ease of use. It’s a fantastic OS and my hope is that it becomes more and more integrated with the mainstream. Meanwhile I hope “cool” difficult distributions get a clue.
Great article, Rich.
I try a huge number of new distros. When I got to Ubuntu I saw the wisdom in their work but was also aware that it had a few quirks. I tried Mint which is derived from Ubuntu and Mint is fast and has not had noticable upgrade burps along the way. Right this moment Mint and Mepis 8 RC3 are probably the hot ticket in the world of Linux. Mepis is now also derived from Debian. Underneath it all Debian’s offspring are by far the great power in linux land.
it’s true you get a lot of snobery, but I dont think it’s anything to be upset about. Linux is what it is because it was created by outsiders for outsiders.
It’s a huge part of the draw, most of the folks i’ve converted were most motivated by the feeling of using something different and joining the minority. The so called elitists are in many cases the ones writing all the code that makes linux awesome. The fact that they are outspoken nuts with all kinds of crazy standards is why they make great stuff. Lets not forget that the grand high wizard of elitist nuts is Linus Torvalds.
that is all
I agree wholeheartedly. As a community, we need to come together and promote Linux rather than our current distro of choice.
I’ve used a number of distros including Mandrake/Mandriva, Redhat, Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu and Arch. Ubuntu 4.10 was the first distro that really made the Linux experience enjoyable. I currently recommend Kubuntu to new users who are looking at trying out Linux.
My current distro of choice on my main rig is Arch. Powerful, easy and very lean. I still use Kubuntu on my laptop and Xubuntu on one of my desktops.
Love it or hate it, Ubuntu is also Linux and we need to support the effort to spread Linux to the masses.
Satchmo completely misses the point and exemplifies your articles observation. I’m a VERY experienced Linux user, but if I’m a longtime Chevy driver (or Snap-On tool user, or fill-in-your-favorite tool/utility here) and someone say to try out this new X-brand of car or truck, I’m expecting the user interface to be similar enough to use without wasting my time learning a new one. The throttle had damned well better be under my right foot, and the brake to the left of it. I couldn’t care less how ‘elite’ you feel if it’s different just to be different. It would be incredibly stupid to say you have a ‘better’ power tool, but, oh yeah, the power button actually turns it off…you have to make it go by pulling this string with your little finger. Get the point…computers (and OS’s) are meant to be functional tools, not political statements. I use Linux because it functions more reliably, and performs better than Windows. But I also use Windows and Macs, and having differences in the interfaces just makes them harder to use. (I believe the AMC Pacer was one of the last attempts by AMC to make a car different just to be different…but of course people just laughed at them.) Bottom line…don’t confuse ‘different’ with ‘better’. They’re not connected.
I have remarked, in other forums, on several occasions, that if a person is totally new to computers it is easier to learn Linux than if they have Windows experience. It is exactly that throttle under the right foot issue that you point to. When a person leaves Windows they often bring their Windows habits with them. This is a huge MISTAKE. We may be able to agree that switching from Windows to Ubuntu might be easier than for most other Linux based distros. But Ubuntu does not want to be Windows. Nobody in Linux land wants Linux to be Windows. But it would be a real wow wow if all Windows programs would run on Linux right out of the box with zero user input. Frankly computational power as well as the ability to store huge sums of data may make my wish come true. We very well may see a day when we type in nothing more than the name of a program we wish to run and a Linux corrected version is installed.
Rich–
I agree with you completely. There is one issue with distros such as ubuntu that is distressing to old-timers like me though–when they break, the users have no clue how to fix them because they are used to the simplicity. Now for old-timers this isn’t an issue, but when we get called in to fix something because someone can’t be bothered to take the time to RTFM (which, sadly, is the case with some ubuntu/rh/mandrake/knoppix users), that’s where we get annoyed.
To your credit though, I agree, there’s too much hate out there. I like ubuntu as a distro, and I’m floored at the overall accomplishment.
I keep my programs duplicated on a second hard drive. When it comes time to upgrade my distro I have no concerns about starting with a fresh hard drive and then importing my old programs from the second drive. Obviously I could repair a broken OS by simply and quickly duplicating the install process but Linux has been so glitch free I doubt that I’ll ever need to do such a thing other than at upgrade time.
I switched over completely to Ubuntu from Windows, which is something I wouldn’t have even contemplated with any of the other Linux distributions I’ve tried. (And I think I first tried one in the mid-90s.) This is the first one that “out of the box” manages to achieve at least some basic level of performance with whatever hardware I’ve tried it with. Sure, I’ve tweaked the drivers some, especially graphics cards, but it’s not *essential* to do that just to get it to work.
I have no problem with the command line. I get nostalgic for DOS. But frankly, viewing the web isn’t as much fun with Lynx as it is with Firefox. If you just want to crunch numbers, all you need is a green screen, but if you actually want to do anything most people do with a computer these days, an attractive GUI is just part of the package.
Awesome.
Very well said.
Linux users fighting with other Linux users over the ‘validity’ of their particular distro brings the exact problem, like you already said, that drives water-testers back to their familiar Windows environment.
Although I hadn’t quite realized what you said is true until I read it here, it’s nice to know that someone noticed the truth.
Thanks for posting that, very nice!
I’ve been using Ubuntu since 2.0 or so and have been, overall, very satisfied with it. Unfortunately, over the passage of time, as Canonical has moved forward one of the things that I liked the most about the OS (bare bones install / no extras) seems to have passed the way of the dodo.
Yes, they have gotten much better on the hardware front, however, I have still to find a *nix distro that works “out of the box” for my Tyan mobo so that’s another mark against Ubuntu as well. Of course, I can always resolve the hardware issues myself as I’m accustomed to doing, however, if you’re going to build a “one-size-fits-all” distro this should be no problem. I mean, come ON VISTA can do it!
Essentially, I’m going to be looking for something a bit slimmer to install on the next go ’round.
The problem with Ubuntu is it is too bloated… My God, it boots slower than my Windows, while a nice lean fast distro like Gentoo boots in 50% of the time of Windows…
My first foray into the *nix world was about ‘98. I had some problems so turned to some *nix usenet groups that seemed they might be helpful. Instead I was met with derision and disdain for not knowing what I needed to know. Well, duh, I was new to the scene.
I had to learn it by myself. The hard way. I couldn’t bring myself evangelize it because I knew my sister, my mom, most of my friends, would never get it and I’d be caught in a morass of continual family/friends support calls.
Then, finally, a distro comes out that makes it easier for *nix-newbies to run the OS. And the same attitude I met in ‘98 is still present.
To you guys who think linux can’t play games, i say the only worth while game is nethack XD it’s sooo awesome!
Dear Mr.Rich Menga,
You deserve a very well homemade cookie for this write up. Heck you deserve a year’s supply of those even. Yes some of the most vocal *nix/ linux/ “iamholierthanallofuunoobtuusers” needs to STFU and spend the same energy on figuring out how to consolidate or clean all that mess we call as variations of distros under the sun. Sure we do need some of the more 1337 ones for ub3r nerds to tinker with but we don’t need like another 10 more for the rest of the average Joe switchers like me.
The definite argument that gets prominent use would be that Linux users are “blessed” with said distro varieties slash features, something that’s of course missing from what we can get out of the mainstream. While this is true, I can’t understand why is there a need to actually divide these developmental efforts (I mean come on? How much people do we have per distro for crying loud?) and why would that be so beneficial for the free and open source OS in the long term?
They arguably spend equal if not more energies on parading would be switchers to go with or not with 1 distro from the other rather than do the same to fight to kill the API (yes I’m talking about DirectX), get hardware manufacturers to get in line and do better PR to aggressively support newer adoptions.
Another thing is that these snobs FAIL to recognize that most of us either spend between $500 – $1000 on systems to work FOR us, NOT the other way around. For all the elitist and condescending remarks, if they can’t even figure how a distro should be of any further practical use from the get go then their arguments holds no water.
Just my .02 and I hope that Ubuntu maintains their “Linux for human beings” credo.
Absolutely right! There seem to be a group of geeks who on one hand keep saying Linux is the best while lambasting anyone not using “real” Linux distros like Slackware or Debian. They want to maintain their geek image by using an OS the common man is unable to use. I think these people did more harm to the Linux cause than many pro-Windows guys.
I think you are mis-understanding two conflicting messages. The first is:
“Linux is superior and everyone that doesn’t use it is dumb.”
The second is:
“Linux is different than Windows, we value it’s uniqueness and don’t want it turned into a cheap windows rip-off.”
Unfortunately, these two messages get intermingled by us Linux purists, and it is our fault. Yes, there are a lot of Linux users that take the superior attitude, but many of us just want linux to continue being linux. You can make linux easier to use without turning it into Windows.
What a lot of linux users see is linux losing what makes it great- the stability, the security, the simplicity – to a OS that looks and feels like every other OS out there.
Why i use linux and why i don’t use ubuntu:
“I would like a bike WITHOUT training wheels welded onto it, because I don’t mind sacrificing a little safety for the sake of feeling the wind in my hair.” -Pete Trbovic
i feel that most of the “elitist” linux users feel this way
Using the oldest linux distro still actively maintained – Slackware
I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. I have been using various flavours of *nix for over 15 years, and Ubuntu is the one that currently best meets the requirements of a desktop OS. Any body who argues that this somehow reduces its ‘*nixness’ ought to be forced back to using SCO over a flaky dial up line…
Who are we kidding? Unless you use FreeBSD, you’re a n00b…I don’t care what flavour of the week Linux distro you use.
Btw, before some of you get all bent, this was meant as sarcasm. Everyone knows the truely “31337″ OS is OpenBSD.
They said the same thing about Mandrake, or Mandriva now. Anyone that is good and the *nixes should tell you that there’s ALL KINDS of technical aptitudes using *nix. What you like depends on the flavor, for instance is Mint Chocolate Chip for noobs too? Or maybe Vanilla?