I got hazed in the comments something fierce (all by Mac people) for what I said in my last post, so I’m going to have to explain better why I said what I did.
First:
After some intense research, I offer the following well-thought-out and poignant anecdote: They both suck.
You obviously can’t use "suck" as a "well-though-out and poignant anecdote". How could anyone perform intense research and then say something "sucks"? Answer: It’s called sarcasm.
Second:
The reason why these slabs can fit so much into such a compact space is because the parts are smaller, i.e. laptop parts.
The iMac and Dell XPS One and Gateway One all have a slab shape. A slab is a flat block. Laptops aren’t slabs because they physically fold open and shut. So yes, the design of a flat non-folding computer is a slab.
It is easier for me to say "laptop parts" instead of "proprietary miniaturized parts that sorta/kinda resemble laptop parts but only in certain instances dependent on model, options chosen, etc etc etc etc etc".
Slabs, very much like laptops, use proprietary miniaturized parts. This is undisputed. Obviously, not every component of a slab exactly follows a laptop in part design because the chassis used are totally different. However, the size is more than just similar and that’s what you pay attention to.
For all intents and purposes, slabs use parts very similar to laptops.
Want to disagree? Then answer me this:
Can you take the parts out of a slab and put them into a standard box?
Can you take the parts out of a laptop and put them into a standard box?
I’ll answer both of those for you: No and no, because both have proprietary miniaturized parts unique to their chassis.
Third:
Any laptop is designed to last 2 years. That’s it. If you can get more than 2 years out of any laptop, consider yourself fortunate. It doesn’t matter who makes it because the parts are essentially all the same across the board.
The Big Question: What do I base this on?
Answer: Real-world corporate experience.
Next statement: "Okay smart guy, define real-world corporate experience."
Answer:
1. Being responsible for support and repair for laptops for 100 sales force employees.
These units absolutely got destroyed - most with 18 months. Every single possible thing that could break on these units did, and obviously not all at once. If it wasn’t a busted hinge, it was the LCD screen. Or the keyboard. Or the trackpad/touchpad. Or a battery bay stopped charging the battery. On and on and on.
2. Actually seeing the Panasonic Toughbook in action.
Never seen a Panasonic Toughbook? I’m not surprised. You won’t find them on a shelf in a store. These aren’t your everyday units. Rather, they have full magnesium alloy cases. Very heavy and you could run a truck over them and they’d survive. They’re moisture-resistant and dust-resistant also. A splash of water won’t kill these things.
Now even with that kind of case, the Toughbook like all other laptops are susceptible to electronics failure. And yes it does happen in.. wait for it.. the first 2 years of ownership. That’s because laptops are designed for a 2-year life span.
3. Proof! Proof! Proof!
Now of course, nerds love to spew forth "Show me the proof laptops have a 2-year life span!" If you’ve ever worked in a real corporate environment where the units get the crap kicked out of them, you have all the proof you need. Two years, guys.
You can tell me all day "I have [this] laptop and it’s lasted WAY more than 2 years! You’re SO wrong!"
No, you’re wrong. I’ve seen the piles of laptops busted well before the 2-year mark. If you own a laptop and it’s over 2 years old - GOOD FOR YOU. Most others DO NOT. That’s why corporations ROUTINELY switch out computers every 2 to 3 years. Why? BECAUSE THEY BREAK AT THAT POINT.
And don’t give me that "Get the extended warranty!" crap. Give me a frickin’ break. Busted in-need-of-repair laptops are worthless. WORKING laptops are more important. What possible GOOD is a unit if it keeps breaking over and over again after 2 years no matter how many times it gets fixed?
4. Having worked at a computer recycling center.
Speaking of 2/3 year turnover, have you ever seen what happens to those units afterwards when they’re shipped to the computer recycling center?
I have.
It’s not pretty.
With laptops you can probably get a mental image of what you’d see there. Pallet after pallet of every kind of laptop imaginable - including Macbooks - just a tick over 2 years old, with 90% of them busted. And yes that’s an accurate statistic. We’d be lucky to get 10 units out of 100 that actually booted, much less worked.
With the slab computers, which were iMacs because this is pre-"One" era computers, yep you guessed it - vast majority of them busted.
The slot-load drives were "buzzy" and at that point usually couldn’t read discs anymore. And, of course, replacing those asinine slot-loader optical drives was, said politely, a pain in the butt (if we could repair and resell a unit, we would try our best to do that).
The screens were either "dimmed" out, "washed" out or just plain didn’t work anymore.
I hear scores of Mac guys stating they have 10 or 20 or 30 iMacs that last for years and years.
I could show you triple or more of that amount, at any time, in the scrap heap at a recycling center - just like regular PC’s - that are under 2 years old.
It does happen.
Now if you’re a Mac tech and can actually fix and maintain the units, that’s a different story. You’ll probably get 3 to 5 years out of them assuming the screen doesn’t cut out at a point where it’s too expensive to replace (and yes the screen is the most expensive part of an iMac just like on laptops).
But does all business have a laptop tech and/or a Mac tech on site?
Nope.
So the units get let go before the 24-month mark as they do nothing but waste space at that point.
Slab computers are the worst of both worlds
So let me get this straight..
A slab is a laptop except.. it’s not. It uses the same screen as one.. but can’t be folded or taken anywhere..
It uses miniaturized proprietary parts similar to those in laptops that cost more to fix when they break..
So I get the inferior life span of a laptop because of the miniaturized parts wrapped in a proprietary box that can’t be fixed when it breaks.
Oh, joy.
Keep your slabs, guys. They suck, I’ve seen what happens to them later in life and I absolutely will not waver on that point.
You want compact? Get a laptop. At least it will be worth more when it’s time to get rid of it.
Rich Menga is PCMech's video guy, an author and part-time host of PCMech LIVE.
Steve Juniper said:
12/29/2007 7:26 pm
So what did you say different this time? Still defensive, still wrong.
[Reply]
Rich Menga said:
12/29/2007 7:50 pm
I didn’t say anything different; that’s the whole point. That’s why it’s titled as a follow-up. What I did was explain why I said what I did. It’s very easy for a commenter such as yourself to blast out something and not have to explain the what’s and why’s (such as you saying “still wrong” without pointing out exactly what you think is “wrong” and why). If I asked you to explain your what’s and why’s, could you sum it up in a single sentence? Absolutely not. You’d have to post a follow-up. Your follow-up wouldn’t say anything new. Rather, it would explain what you said before in better detail.
[Reply]
Sticks said:
12/29/2007 8:03 pm
We have thousands of desktops and laptops in our business. We don’t see pallet after pallet of computers (of any design) that need to be repaired ‘over and over.’ It seems like your 100 person sales force is composed of ham-handed chimpanzees…WTF?? The fact that you felt the need to respond to all of those ‘Mac people’ (many of them no doubt use Windows systems provided by their employeers, by the way) simply confirmed the weakness of your mis-titled original article. Incidentally, it’s not ‘what’s and why’s’…..get rid of the apostrophes please.
[Reply]
Rich Menga said:
12/29/2007 8:13 pm
Using “WTF” is netspeak and is therefore retarded. Are you going to “LOL” me next?
And what exactly is a “employeer”?
You grammar-nazi me and I’ll grammar-nazi you right back.
You don’t see the pallet after pallet of busted computers because your company most likely gets rid of them at the appropriate time. It’s called end-of-life or end-of-lease.
Did you ever think of that?
You fail.
[Reply]
SuperMatt said:
12/29/2007 8:29 pm
Your company is bleeding money due to amazingly careless users. Also, it sounds like your laptops are dying due to harsh physical treatment. Desktop machines shouldn’t face the same fate. Therefore, even if they use smaller parts, they should definitely outlast laptops since they aren’t being dropped and thrown around.
[Reply]
Martin Hill said:
12/29/2007 8:50 pm
As I said in my response to your first article, from my experience, I agree that the expected lifespan of laptops in a corporate (or school) environment with lots of rough handling can be as low as 2-3 years.
However, I maintain my point that iMacs, the epitome of the all-in-one concept, do not suffer the same problems due to being seated on one desk for very lengthy periods of time and not bumped, jostled around and dropped like laptops.
I make my statements based on my experience having been in the support role on my campus of 6,000 PCs, 850 of which are Macs.
You are correct that swapping components out of All-in-ones (particularly the latest iMacs) is much more difficult than a desktop or tower, but it is no different compared to laptops. However, the fact that the all-in-ones last longer than the laptops means this is *much* less of a problem than with laptops which need parts swapped more regularly.
Add to that the 2-3 year lease cycle of computers in the corporate world meaning that the computers are under warranty and replaced usually long before they do finally all start dying.
As a result, I have no problem recommending all-in-ones like the iMac for corporate desktop use. The benefit of far less desk space used, reduced cable clutter and ease of carrying around the entire computer rather than having to make several trips to move a tower and screen far out-weigh the negatives.
I still can’t understand why people who only use email, office apps and web browsing (the most common corporate tasks) go for big, noisy, cluttered boxes with loads of unused expansion when a simple, elegant all-in-one would do that sort of job far better.
-Mart
[Reply]
Rich Menga said:
12/29/2007 8:54 pm
No one ever said average Joe and Jane employees very carefully use their laptops and polish them shiny every night because that simply doesn’t happen. Yes, it’s the employees that bust them. No question. They get used. A lot. And they break. A lot.
You’re exactly correct: Desktops do not suffer from the same inferior life span as a laptop because they’re not moved around nearly as much.
The issue is that a slab is built very similar to a laptop as it has the same proprietary nature and similar smaller parts. It is a well known fact a laptop has an inferior life span compared to a desktop. But then you have the slab; a computer that’s a desktop but built like a laptop.
I have absolutely no faith in a desktop unit built in the style of a laptop. It’s like purposely engineering a product to break faster even if the parts are good.
[Reply]
Justin Hitchborn (hitchface) said:
12/29/2007 9:31 pm
Agreeing with Rich here. Guys, you’re missing the point. If a set of computer parts is crammed into a small space with little/no room to breathe and moved around (everyone I know moves their iMacs around just as much as a laptop), then you can’t honestly say that they aren’t like laptops. If you want a desktop computer, then get a desktop computer, and not a half breed that you can’t fix, change or upgrade.
“But its so much prettier!” That’s a load. If you buy your computer based on looks alone, it deserves to suck and go to the trash heap.
temporarily /rant.
[Reply]
Martin Hill said:
12/29/2007 9:42 pm
I’m sorry, you just admitted that “desktops do not suffer from the same inferior life span as a laptop because they’re not moved around nearly as much.”
But then you go and repeat your mantra that you wouldn’t buy an all-in-one because it breaks faster than a tower.
I’m finding it hard to follow your line of reasoning.
The fact that laptops break faster because they get moved around/bumped/dropped *does not mean* laptop parts are inferior to desktop parts.
If anything, laptop parts are engineered to withstand more violent handling to try and off-set the extra risks arising from mobility. For example, the 2.5” HD drives in laptops have accelerometers in them to automatically park the heads if they detect sudden movement to mitigate against head-crashes when being dropped.
As such, your argument against all-in-ones based on reliability does not stack up.
I previously mentioned my direct experience of the dozen 6-7 year old iMacs down the hall that all booted up and worked perfectly vs the seven 4-5 year old PowerBook G3s also in the same room of which only one would power on.
Now YMMV, but this has been my experience.
-Mart
[Reply]
Rich Menga said:
12/29/2007 9:53 pm
I will clarify.
A slab is part desktop but mostly laptop. It only holds the title of desktop strictly because it’s not portable; the parts that make one up are not traditional desktop parts. Many slab parts are proprietary and smaller just like laptops.
The traditional desktop is the one with the longest life span, as in the one not made from smaller proprietary parts.
[Reply]
Michael said:
12/29/2007 10:03 pm
Why Rich ? Why did you anger the Mac gang? Obviously, from other postings across the web (ZDnet or Microsoft-watch etc) they are incapable of reason. They are without thought. They are borg
[Reply]
Martin Hill said:
12/29/2007 10:05 pm
@Justin,
No one I know takes their iMac to work and brings it home every day or takes it into the classroom/boardroom for lectures/presentations or out on site for client presentations/work multiple times a day etc. You must have very compulsive friends with very big arm muscles.
As far as your “But its so much prettier!” point, I’ve not mentioned looks as reason (though for front desk reception or lounge room coffee table usage etc it is quite a valid point), but I do list built-in webcam, built-in stereo speakers, whisper-quiet operation, lack of cable-clutter, small desktop footprint, ease of installation etc as very valid reasons.
-Mart
[Reply]
Jake said:
12/29/2007 11:29 pm
This is silly. In neither post have you offered evidence that laptop components don’t last as long as tower components, given equal treatment. But that’s necessary for your argument to make any sense.
Plus, you seem to be using “proprietary” to mean something different than what it usually means. The iMac uses Intel Core 2 Duo chips, a Panasonic (I think) OEM optical drive, and a standard-size SATA hard drive. (This guy replaces his with a Hitachi one he bought: http://www.amfiteatar.org/content/view/155/78/lang,en/)
In what sense are these components “proprietary”?
[Reply]
Jake said:
12/29/2007 11:33 pm
Oh, and to the person who said “(everyone I know moves their iMacs around just as much as a laptop)”–really? You know people who take their iMacs to conference rooms for a meeting or to the cafe? I’m afraid I don’t buy it.
[Reply]
Rich Menga said:
12/30/2007 7:27 am
@Michael: Great question.
Fanatical Mac users (i.e. Mactards) don’t phase me. They can throw out all the personal insults and “You don’t know what you’re talking about” statements all day. Couldn’t care less. Heard it a million times before.
Martin Hill’s comments, for example, are spot-on and well worth the read. He is not a Mactard. He’s a Mac professional. You can tell he’s been around the block several times concerning Macs over the years. The guy is an excellent source of genuine good real-world (and not fanboy) Mac knowledge. And from what I gather he works in an environment where Macs are used most: Educational institutions.
I don’t argue with Martin because I can’t; he’s that good. Mart is the type of Mac user you’d want to know.
The Mactards who throw out personal jabs, on the other hand, can eat their hats as far as I’m concerned. And I’ll put them in their place every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
[Reply]
Sticks said:
12/30/2007 8:41 am
You’re simply incapable of putting anyone in their place, based on your junior high level thought processes displayed in your posts and responses. I’ll bet that a good number of the ‘Mactards’ you attempt to paint with a broad brush spend more time using Windows than you would imagine. Just for shits and giggles, how much time have you spent USING a current Mac in the past year?
[Reply]
Ruhayat said:
12/30/2007 9:35 am
I have to agree with the Borg analogy. Why paste a rebuttal? It’s a no-win game with these guys unless you kneel down before their white obelisk.
[Reply]
Shane said:
12/30/2007 9:36 am
Sensitive much? Perhaps you could simple try to phrase things with a little less jackassery?
[Reply]
Michael said:
12/30/2007 11:14 am
I figured the Borg comment would get some replies because it seems to be true. I use Windows every single day. At work. At home. I have used Vista and thoroughly enjoy it. I am a technology professional for over 4 years. I am at my core a technology professional. I have used Mac’s and I do enjoy working with them but I grew up in a Windows ecosystem so I am at most comfortable with them. It is in my opinion that ANYONE who can not have a mature discourse about technology regardless of what form it takes (Windows or Mac’s) should not comment on sites such as this that offers help and insight to other end-users on the Internet. We are all here to learn from each other and to improve our understanding of the various tech gadgets that we use.
I have been around on the web for some time and if there is one thing that I have noticed is that it is popular beating to death the top dog and quoting lies propagated from other sites. Pcmech, continue to do what you do best and let the Mactards and Windoze or whatever clever name given continue to sell misinformation. It will be sites such as these that will inform other people of real world experience about technology. All-in-one’s do suck. I have real world experience with them. Yes, they really do suck.
Lastly, lets all try to remember that nothing is perfect. For Christmas I picked up an Ipod Touch. I feel it’s a decent mp3 player but its overhyped. My creative Zen has more functionality but I like the stylish nature of the Touch. Apple produces great consumer products. Windows has great enterprise software. Pro’s and Con’s to each. In the end please don’t be like the Borg. Its good to feel loyal to your company but don’t be blinded. I know Windows isn’t perfect but I use it because as a professional I see the need that it fulfills in an enterprise environment. I am not blinded to the security issues though. Always remember that technology is always moving and what is “hot” today will not be tomorrow.
[Reply]
Martin Hill said:
12/30/2007 11:21 am
@Rich Menga
Thanks for the compliments - yes, I work at a University here in Australia with 40,000 students and 6,000 staff and before that was computer support for 5 different computer resellers.
I also dislike knee-jerk fan-boys of any persuasion and far prefer a reasoned dialog to hurled insults. I’m afraid however that your use of the word Mactards was almost guaranteed to draw insults back in your direction from ome of the more impassioned Mac crowd, so it’s a little hard to criticise when you’re not exactly innocent yourself. I think you’ll find that there are actually a lot of Mac users like me who would love to engage in friendly discussion of hot topics if you don’t throw the first stone.
Just a suggestion.
@Ruhayat, now you’re falling into the trap of insults too without any carefully reasoned counter-arguments of your own. Not a good position to start from.
Anyway, I’d better go, it’s midnight over this side of the planet.
-Mart
[Reply]
Lokkison said:
12/30/2007 12:14 pm
Quote:
Using “WTF” is netspeak and is therefore retarded. Are you going to “LOL” me next?
My God you’re a fool, it is net speak and is synonymous with modern day communication on of all things the internet. So yes it’s netspeak. You sir in your ridiculous defensiveness are retarded.
Quote:
And what exactly is a “employeer”?
You grammar-nazi me and I’ll grammar-nazi you right back.
That’s aN you’re to use, notice the N!
Quote:
You fail.
Now YOU resort to ‘netspeak’, therefore YOU FAIL.
[Reply]
Michael said:
12/30/2007 1:16 pm
wow…..Lokkison..Did you even read my post. Lets be professional here.
Rich. This is your fault. You put the word “Mac” in your title here and that brought the borg. Now they wont leave. Thanks alot. =)
[Reply]
Ruhayat said:
12/30/2007 3:38 pm
I’m sorry, Martin, but in my experience being reasonable doesn’t mean much when you’re “discussing” with Mac fanboys. And the responses in this particular forum serves to just illustrate that further.
In other words, my comment is the total sum of my experience thus far.
I’ve been a Mac user since the blue & white G3 Power Mac. Used to buy new Powerbooks/iBooks every year since the 1998 Wallstreet because I wanted to do my bit in supporting a company I really admired, back when it was a struggling minnow. All in all, I have owned 11 Macs in 9 years.
But I stopped buying Macs in protest when Apple began exhibiting seriously naff tendencies against its users (my discontent began when it shafted Watson, a utility I was fond of). I started speaking out against them, and the responses I’d get were more akin to being attacked by a rabid bunch of squirrels.
At least the squirrels would have been cute.
Apple, you see, just could no wrong, and trying to prove otherwise is an exercise in futility. They really are like the Borg.
I came across this website just recently and I liked the overall philosophy of it. It would have been far more productive, I feel, for them to just continue doing what they have been doing and let the storm brew in its little teacup.
[Reply]
Ruhayat said:
12/30/2007 3:48 pm
By the way, Martin, Macs do fail. And the picture-frame iMacs are the most notorious for this, in my personal experience.
I work in the advertising & video production industry and do freelance work for a number of such companies. These people can’t afford to kit out Mac Pros to all their designers, and Apple won’t give them proper desktop computers, so they have had to resort to iMacs. About half of those iMacs purchased have had to go back for service within the first 6 months.
I almost wanted to say that the production quality started to go downhill when Apple became obsessed with form over function with the ultra-thin but problem-plagued Titanium models. But then I remembered that the hinges on my Wallstreet and Lombard Powerbooks have both had to be replaced.
In fact, of the 11 Macs I have owned, only the Power Mac G4 (which I still use), 400MHz Pismo and 466MHz iBook SE have never had to go back to the shop for repair. (Let’s not go back to the painful memory of the failed hinges and worn out video ribbon on the Wallstreet and the Lombard, shall we. Ah, the Lombard — that particular iteration was cursed, I tell you).
[Reply]
Ruhayat said:
12/30/2007 4:07 pm
Oh, just one more “by the way”, if you don’t mind, Martin:
I wouldn’t know if laptop parts are more fragile than desktop parts or not, but the probability of them failing is made higher because most of these parts are crammed into tiny spaces with frequently inadequate cooling.
I know for a fact that my laptop hard disks have failed far more regularly than my desktop drives. And I know that my Powerbook often gets so hot when doing design work (and even when I have one too many tabs open in a browser) that it often abandons everything and goes to sleep mode.
I also know that my Powerbook huffs and chuffs more than my Power Mac when working on the same Photoshop process, despite the Powerbook’s superior specs [1.33GHz G4, 1.25GB RAM, 56MB VRAM] vs [800MHz G4, 1.5GB RAM, 32MB VRAM] on the Power Mac.
Sorry for such long comments. But you did ask for “reasoned” responses.
[Reply]
jbelkin said:
12/30/2007 4:39 pm
The problem with your analysis is that you presume Macs are like Pc’s when 100% of your actual hands-on experience on a daily basis is with PC’s. You are obviously qualified to judge PC’s but you are mistaken to apply the general terms to Macs. That would like working at a Suzuki dealership and claiming all cars are exactly like Suzuki’s since they all have pretty much the same parts.
How about the best arbritrator? Where people put their money down - eBay. Since you know Pc’s so well - look up any two-year PC and look at the prices versus new … now do it for any Mac INCLUDING laptops and you’ll see the HUGE difference in retained value. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE just like a 2-year BMW will retain more of its value than a 2-year old Suzuki even though both are cars.
Only until you spend two years with Macs then are you qualified to judge.
For instance as a PC maven you will find it impossible to believe but after 7 years of OSX, we have exactly ZERO viruses, zero malware and zero trojans (outside of MACAfee & Symantec labs) and with EVERY OS upgrade which can be applied to every machine since 2001, every OS upgrade actually makes an older machine run faster & BETTER … on the PC side, you will find it hard to believe if not impossible that you can run an ENTIRE SYSTEM OS UPGRADE without having to wipe the drive - and after 30-45 minutes, you’re set. I’m sure to you this sounds like commuting by a UFO but it’s true - that’s why you can’t just look at some Macs and say you know Macs. It’s not about looks or design which it has but about useability and value. That’s why we use Macs.
[Reply]
Ruhayat said:
12/30/2007 4:43 pm
PS (ha-ha, sorry, Martin, and Rich), some personal stats:
1. Desktops: 333Mhz G3, 800Mhz G4, 1.8GHz Dual G5, and 5 Windows PCs — fatality: one.
(The G5 had mainboard problems, got stuck to-and-fro-ing for 6 months without a resolution, so in the end I told the Mac dealer to reimburse me and I bought 2 Windows PCs instead). Of the 5 Windows boxes I have self-built, 2 are still being used (by my admin staff and my father respectively), the other 3 were donated to charity.
2. Laptops: 266Mhz Wallstreet, 333Mhz Lombard, 400MHz Pismo, 400MHz TiBook, 466Mhz iBook SE, 500Mhz iBook, 1.2Ghz iBook, 1.33Ghz Powerbook — fatality: six.
(Except for the Pismo and iBook SE, all the others had hard disk issues or outright failures within 2 years, the TiBook hard disk hard crashed two times, making me lose all my data both times // the Lombard, TiBook, iBooks 500Mhz and 1.2Ghz had mainboard problems, the Lombard and 500Mhz iBook eventually died completely within 3 years // the Wallstreet and Lombard broke their hinges within 2 years // the Wallstreet, Lombard and 1.2Ghz iBook developed video problems within 3 years).
3. iMacs: 3 agencies I work for bought a total of 7; 4 had “issues”.
Agency A: 3 iMacs, 2 had to be returned within 2 months, one was never resolved and was replaced by a new one, which also had screen and motherboard problems. In the end the agency got pissed off and got a Power Mac instead.
Agency B: 2 iMacs, one had screen problems out of the box.
Agency C: 1 iMac, developed screen problems within 6 months, got fixed temporarily before conking out altogether a couple of weeks out of warranty.
Conclusion:
yes, using laptop components in a “desktop replacement” machine sucks.
[Reply]
Rich Menga said:
12/30/2007 7:21 pm
@Martin Hill:
Yeah, I know I use “Mactard” and you’re right, I shouldn’t use it. But I can’t resist because it so accurately describes a fanatical Mac user in a single made-up word. Guilty. (Raises hand.)
I’m certainly not the first one to use it and if there were made-up words as good as Mactard for Windows and/or Linux fanboys (because I don’t care too much for them either) I’d use them in a second for equal insult-o-rama across OSes and platforms. Some Mactards use “winblows” but it just doesn’t have the same punch.
And I just can’t play it PC (as in “politically correct”) all the time. Makes for a boring read. This is why I like videos like New Media Douche Bags in Plain English. Good stuff. Watch that.
[Reply]
Sticks said:
12/30/2007 7:34 pm
“Wintard” would work ok, unless you prefer “AssClown”…generally applies to Win users who have no experience with Macs, yet never hesitate to pontificate about same.
[Reply]
Martin Hill said:
12/30/2007 8:54 pm
@Ruhayat
I never said Macs don’t fail (witness my comments about shelves of dead PowerBooks etc).
Yes, we’ve had bad batches of computers of ALL makes at times as well - a whole lab of eMacs had to go back with the dead screen issue and we’ve had every single Acer desktop of a particular model have its hard disk die all within the same month (now that one was a REAL doozy as we had hundreds of the beggars). I also had the hinges on my old Titanium PowerBook break (though accidentally letting it fly off the seat next to me as our plane landed was probably not conducive to long life!) and lots of other issues with both our Macs and PCs.
I reiterate, I am not saying Macs are infallible – what I am saying is that no argument in this thread so far has definitively demonstrated that laptop component quality or frailty rather than rough handling is the reason laptops die sooner than desktops. Of course hard disks fail more often in laptops – what do you think happens to that poor head when you drop your laptop even just a centimetre onto a desk in the middle of writing some data? Even auto-parking heads aren’t going to be able save you if you sharply knock the side of the laptop.
As far as the cooling issue in cramped confines is concerned, that indeed might conceivably be a problem. However, have you actually looked at the elegantly designed cooling paths in the flat screen iMacs? Unlike the empty box of a tower which needs big fans to move enough air volume to properly cool every part, the iMac has very distinct cooling channels flowing over every critical component to make sure the cool air from the fans goes exactly where it needs to. We have quite a few older generation “slab” iMacs as well as the latest Aluminium iMacs and I have been very impressed at the ability of my 2.8GHz Core 2 Duo 24” Aluminium iMac to max out both cores doing video compression jobs without needing to rev the fans up to audible levels or have the core temperatures show any sign of over-heating.
-Mart
[Reply]
Ruhayat said:
12/31/2007 3:09 am
Martin,
it’s quite simple, really. If heat is not an issue in computer design, then:
1. Why is the Mac Pro as big as it is instead of, say, two-thirds smaller?
2. Why didn’t Apple manage to come out with a dual-core G5 iMac?
3. Why wasn’t there a G5 notebook?
For #3, the answer “Because IBM didn’t want to design a portable G5 chip for them” doesn’t really cover it. There was a period, just before the Pentium M came out, when PC makers were coming out with notebooks that had a real desktop Pentium 4 chip inside. So using a desktop chip inside a notebook can be done. Apple just didn’t want to give up its style over function philosophy.
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Ruhayat said:
12/31/2007 3:20 am
Martin,
setting aside the heat issue and coming back to Rich’s original premise on why slab PCs suck, I’d like to illustrate why agree with him with two examples.
Example #1:
4 years ago I built a PC with a 1.3GHz Celeron, 256MB RAM and 15GB hard disk (yes, they used to exist… ha ha). I gave this computer to my father. Over the years he outgrew it and found it too slow for what he wanted to do.
The first time he mentioned it, I upgraded the RAM to 512MB. The second time, I replaced the hard disk with a speedier, roomier new one. So far, both things can be done with the iMac.
Here’s where a real desktop system shows its value over a slab: he began dabbling in multimedia, making little video clips on his new grandchild (my niece). I upgraded the RAM again, to 1GB, and put in a Firewire card. Later, I changed the video card. I put in a wireless G card. Just last month, I bought him a 19-inch LCD monitor to replace the old 17″ CRT as a present.
4 years on, and he’s still he’s still happily using the Celeron PC as a result. When it comes to keeping abreast with the latest technologies, a real desktop beats a slab hands down.
By the way, the Celeron PC is in a Mini ATX box. It has a 200-watt power supply, and if you stand it sideways, it’s footprint with the 19″ monitor standing in front of it is as wide as the 20-inch iMac, and just slightly thicker. But while the iMac will probably need to be replaced in 2 years when some new technology you need that you didn’t before comes along, the Celeron PC probably has another 2 years in it, making it last 6-7 years total.
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Ruhayat said:
12/31/2007 3:36 am
Martin,
firstly, I have to say that as a Mac fan we are aberrations in that we are able to accept that Macs — and Apple — have faults. A cursory visit to Mac help forums will show that this is not the norm: try and mention having problems with your Mac and you will get probably 10 people saying they have no problems whatsoever with theirs. How uselessly nice to know.
Now on to my Example #2:
When I bought my Power Mac in 2002, a friend of mine who also does the same thing as me (ie, freelance for an ad agency) bought a G4 “Sunflower” iMac instead because he liked the space-saving design.
5 years on, I am still working on my much-upgraded Power Mac. He, on the other hand, is already on his third iMac.
Again, when you need a new technology feature as your capabilities and needs grow, a slab has nothing on a real desktop computer. Because my Power Mac is a real desktop, I have been able to fit in the following over the years as they became available: SATA, Wireless G, USB2.0, Firewire 800. I am able to have internal RAID, and I recently upgraded to a Superdrive because my work now demands it.
Of course you can have external drives attached to the iMac. But:
1. Apart from also adding more RAM, that’s about it.
2. Having peripherals with cables strewn all over (the iMac doesn’t even have something as basic as a card reader, for heaven’s sake) quickly puts the Elegant Design philosophy of Apple in the garbage can.
Why did my friend need 3 iMacs? Well, first, he realised he needed a bigger screen — the Sunflower iMac had a 15-inch screen and couldn’t do monitor spanning. So he got a G5 iMac. Then, unexpectedly as freelance work often is, he started getting more video editing work; he needed (1) Firewire 800 and (2) a Superdrive, neither of which was on the G5 iMac he’d bought.
So he got a 24-inch Core 2 Duo iMac recently. And the screen is starting to have problems. Check the Mac help sites and you’ll see that this is a rather common problem to new iMacs and MacBooks. But the brilliant thing about this problem is: according to Apple and the “helpful” Mac fans, it doesn’t exist.
Because, you see, their iMacs and MacBooks are doing just fine. Where got problem?
Anyway, all of this is just to say, if you need a desktop computer, get a real desktop computer. If you’re thinking of getting a slab, I concur with Rich’s suggestion: you might as well just get a notebook computer. It has an even smaller footprint, uses even less power, is just as non-upgradable, AND it can be carried around.
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Ruhayat said:
12/31/2007 3:49 am
Martin,
my third point regarding the slab PCs is this: I am most wary of this disposable culture we collectively seem to have been building up since the 1990’s.
Slab PCs can be upgraded so when you need a new feature — like my father and friend did — you’d have to chuck them out. If millions of people had to replace their slabs every 2 years, imagine the toxic mountain that builds up over a decade.
On the other hand, a real desktop — on which Apple’s reputation for longevity really rested — could conceivably stretch for 5 years. So in a decade, you would have changed slab PCs 5x, as opposed to 2x for desktops.
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Martin Hill said:
12/31/2007 7:43 am
@Ruhayat,
You are quite right that expandable tower computers have significant advantages over iMacs when it comes to adding certain types of extra features. As I originally mentioned, gamers who need to upgrade video cards each year in particular will be better served with an expandable desktop. Likewise users who enjoy building their own computers need not apply.
However, what you need to consider is that All-in-Ones are like laptops which also have limited upgrade potential compared to a tower, but are still a very valid (and now actually more popular) form factor for many users – many people don’t mind the lack of upgradability as it is off-set by other advantages.
As I stated, your typical corporate desktop user who only needs email, web browsing, and Office apps is still very well served by an all-in-one. Corporate users in particular swap out their PCs on a 2-3 year lease cycle – no one on our campus upgrades their computers, they just get new ones every couple of years. Maybe not the greenest option, but it is the reality in the corporate world. A classic case for the small footprint, no cable-clutter, quiet, everything built-in “slab”.
Even many home users who again only need the computer for email, web browsing, Office apps, music, photo and home video editing are likely candidates. Being able to upgrade RAM, the hard disk and add new peripherals using USB 2.0 and Firewire means they still provide reasonable upgradability and often by the time a bigger screen is desired, the CPU, bus and motherboard are all too slow and need replacing anyway. (of course all iMacs since the 17” G4 iMac support monitor spanning so even new, bigger screens are possible with iMacs).
Also, not everyone has a tame geek to build computers for them – many of the non-geek home users I know have never upgraded an internal component (often not even RAM) in their desktop PC. They just buy new external drives and peripherals and eventually buy a completely new computer when the old becomes too slow even for them.
As always, it is horses for courses. Just because a “slab” iMac or Dell is not the best choice for many people does not mean it is not an valid choice for other demographics.
All of this said, I do believe Apple is missing out not having a small cheap modular desktop in between the Mac Mini and the Mac Pro. With one or two AGP/PCI slots and one or two 3.5” HD bays it could fit the bill for many gamers and users who want to be able to upgrade video cards/optical drives and maybe add an extra PCI card for new internal functionality but don’t need the huge tower case of the Mac Pro. Again, not something everyone would need or want, but it would plug a gap in their line-up.
-Mart
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