Follow-up for the Mac peoples

by Rich Menga on Dec 29, 2007 | 35 comments

I got hazed in the comments something fierce (all by Mac people) for what I said in my last post, so I’m going to have to explain better why I said what I did.

First:

After some intense research, I offer the following well-thought-out and poignant anecdote: They both suck.

You obviously can’t use "suck" as a "well-though-out and poignant anecdote". How could anyone perform intense research and then say something "sucks"? Answer: It’s called sarcasm.

Second:

The reason why these slabs can fit so much into such a compact space is because the parts are smaller, i.e. laptop parts.

The iMac and Dell XPS One and Gateway One all have a slab shape. A slab is a flat block. Laptops aren’t slabs because they physically fold open and shut. So yes, the design of a flat non-folding computer is a slab.

It is easier for me to say "laptop parts" instead of "proprietary miniaturized parts that sorta/kinda resemble laptop parts but only in certain instances dependent on model, options chosen, etc etc etc etc etc".

Slabs, very much like laptops, use proprietary miniaturized parts. This is undisputed. Obviously, not every component of a slab exactly follows a laptop in part design because the chassis used are totally different. However, the size is more than just similar and that’s what you pay attention to.

For all intents and purposes, slabs use parts very similar to laptops.

Want to disagree? Then answer me this:

Can you take the parts out of a slab and put them into a standard box?

Can you take the parts out of a laptop and put them into a standard box?

I’ll answer both of those for you: No and no, because both have proprietary miniaturized parts unique to their chassis.

Third:

Any laptop is designed to last 2 years. That’s it. If you can get more than 2 years out of any laptop, consider yourself fortunate. It doesn’t matter who makes it because the parts are essentially all the same across the board.

The Big Question: What do I base this on?

Answer: Real-world corporate experience.

Next statement: "Okay smart guy, define real-world corporate experience."

Answer:

1. Being responsible for support and repair for laptops for 100 sales force employees.

These units absolutely got destroyed – most with 18 months. Every single possible thing that could break on these units did, and obviously not all at once. If it wasn’t a busted hinge, it was the LCD screen. Or the keyboard. Or the trackpad/touchpad. Or a battery bay stopped charging the battery. On and on and on.

2. Actually seeing the Panasonic Toughbook in action.

Never seen a Panasonic Toughbook? I’m not surprised. You won’t find them on a shelf in a store. These aren’t your everyday units. Rather, they have full magnesium alloy cases. Very heavy and you could run a truck over them and they’d survive. They’re moisture-resistant and dust-resistant also. A splash of water won’t kill these things.

Now even with that kind of case, the Toughbook like all other laptops are susceptible to electronics failure. And yes it does happen in.. wait for it.. the first 2 years of ownership. That’s because laptops are designed for a 2-year life span.

3. Proof! Proof! Proof!

Now of course, nerds love to spew forth "Show me the proof laptops have a 2-year life span!" If you’ve ever worked in a real corporate environment where the units get the crap kicked out of them, you have all the proof you need. Two years, guys.

You can tell me all day "I have [this] laptop and it’s lasted WAY more than 2 years! You’re SO wrong!"

No, you’re wrong. I’ve seen the piles of laptops busted well before the 2-year mark. If you own a laptop and it’s over 2 years old – GOOD FOR YOU. Most others DO NOT. That’s why corporations ROUTINELY switch out computers every 2 to 3 years. Why? BECAUSE THEY BREAK AT THAT POINT.

And don’t give me that "Get the extended warranty!" crap. Give me a frickin’ break. Busted in-need-of-repair laptops are worthless. WORKING laptops are more important. What possible GOOD is a unit if it keeps breaking over and over again after 2 years no matter how many times it gets fixed?

4. Having worked at a computer recycling center.

Speaking of 2/3 year turnover, have you ever seen what happens to those units afterwards when they’re shipped to the computer recycling center?

I have.

It’s not pretty.

With laptops you can probably get a mental image of what you’d see there. Pallet after pallet of every kind of laptop imaginable – including Macbooks – just a tick over 2 years old, with 90% of them busted. And yes that’s an accurate statistic. We’d be lucky to get 10 units out of 100 that actually booted, much less worked.

With the slab computers, which were iMacs because this is pre-"One" era computers, yep you guessed it – vast majority of them busted.

The slot-load drives were "buzzy" and at that point usually couldn’t read discs anymore. And, of course, replacing those asinine slot-loader optical drives was, said politely, a pain in the butt (if we could repair and resell a unit, we would try our best to do that).

The screens were either "dimmed" out, "washed" out or just plain didn’t work anymore.

I hear scores of Mac guys stating they have 10 or 20 or 30 iMacs that last for years and years.

I could show you triple or more of that amount, at any time, in the scrap heap at a recycling center – just like regular PC’s – that are under 2 years old.

It does happen.

Now if you’re a Mac tech and can actually fix and maintain the units, that’s a different story. You’ll probably get 3 to 5 years out of them assuming the screen doesn’t cut out at a point where it’s too expensive to replace (and yes the screen is the most expensive part of an iMac just like on laptops).

But does all business have a laptop tech and/or a Mac tech on site?

Nope.

So the units get let go before the 24-month mark as they do nothing but waste space at that point.

Slab computers are the worst of both worlds

So let me get this straight..

A slab is a laptop except.. it’s not. It uses the same screen as one.. but can’t be folded or taken anywhere..

It uses miniaturized proprietary parts similar to those in laptops that cost more to fix when they break..

So I get the inferior life span of a laptop because of the miniaturized parts wrapped in a proprietary box that can’t be fixed when it breaks.

Oh, joy.

Keep your slabs, guys. They suck, I’ve seen what happens to them later in life and I absolutely will not waver on that point.

You want compact? Get a laptop. At least it will be worth more when it’s time to get rid of it.

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Steve Juniper
So what did you say different this time? Still defensive, still wrong.
http://www.frostedside.com/blog/ Rich Menga
I didn’t say anything different; that’s the whole point. That’s why it’s titled as a follow-up. What I did was explain why I said what I did. It’s very easy for a commenter such as yourself to blast out something and not have to explain the what’s and why’s (such as you saying “still wrong” without pointing out exactly what you think is “wrong” and why). If I asked you to explain your what’s and why’s, could you sum it up in a single sentence? Absolutely not. You’d have to post a follow-up. Your follow-up wouldn’t say anything new. Rather, it would explain what you said before in better detail.
Sticks
We have thousands of desktops and laptops in our business. We don’t see pallet after pallet of computers (of any design) that need to be repaired ‘over and over.’ It seems like your 100 person sales force is composed of ham-handed chimpanzees…WTF?? The fact that you felt the need to respond to all of those ‘Mac people’ (many of them no doubt use Windows systems provided by their employeers, by the way) simply confirmed the weakness of your mis-titled original article. Incidentally, it’s not ‘what’s and why’s'…..get rid of the apostrophes please.
http://www.frostedside.com/blog/ Rich Menga
Using “WTF” is netspeak and is therefore retarded. Are you going to “LOL” me next?
And what exactly is a “employeer”?
You grammar-nazi me and I’ll grammar-nazi you right back.
You don’t see the pallet after pallet of busted computers because your company most likely gets rid of them at the appropriate time. It’s called end-of-life or end-of-lease.
Did you ever think of that?
You fail.
SuperMatt
Your company is bleeding money due to amazingly careless users. Also, it sounds like your laptops are dying due to harsh physical treatment. Desktop machines shouldn’t face the same fate. Therefore, even if they use smaller parts, they should definitely outlast laptops since they aren’t being dropped and thrown around.
http://mart.ozmac.com Martin Hill
As I said in my response to your first article, from my experience, I agree that the expected lifespan of laptops in a corporate (or school) environment with lots of rough handling can be as low as 2-3 years.
However, I maintain my point that iMacs, the epitome of the all-in-one concept, do not suffer the same problems due to being seated on one desk for very lengthy periods of time and not bumped, jostled around and dropped like laptops.
I make my statements based on my experience having been in the support role on my campus of 6,000 PCs, 850 of which are Macs.
You are correct that swapping components out of All-in-ones (particularly the latest iMacs) is much more difficult than a desktop or tower, but it is no different compared to laptops. However, the fact that the all-in-ones last longer than the laptops means this is *much* less of a problem than with laptops which need parts swapped more regularly.
Add to that the 2-3 year lease cycle of computers in the corporate world meaning that the computers are under warranty and replaced usually long before they do finally all start dying.
As a result, I have no problem recommending all-in-ones like the iMac for corporate desktop use. The benefit of far less desk space used, reduced cable clutter and ease of carrying around the entire computer rather than having to make several trips to move a tower and screen far out-weigh the negatives.
I still can’t understand why people who only use email, office apps and web browsing (the most common corporate tasks) go for big, noisy, cluttered boxes with loads of unused expansion when a simple, elegant all-in-one would do that sort of job far better.
-Mart
http://www.frostedside.com/blog/ Rich Menga
No one ever said average Joe and Jane employees very carefully use their laptops and polish them shiny every night because that simply doesn’t happen. Yes, it’s the employees that bust them. No question. They get used. A lot. And they break. A lot.
You’re exactly correct: Desktops do not suffer from the same inferior life span as a laptop because they’re not moved around nearly as much.
The issue is that a slab is built very similar to a laptop as it has the same proprietary nature and similar smaller parts. It is a well known fact a laptop has an inferior life span compared to a desktop. But then you have the slab; a computer that’s a desktop but built like a laptop.
I have absolutely no faith in a desktop unit built in the style of a laptop. It’s like purposely engineering a product to break faster even if the parts are good.
Justin Hitchborn (hitchface)
Agreeing with Rich here. Guys, you’re missing the point. If a set of computer parts is crammed into a small space with little/no room to breathe and moved around (everyone I know moves their iMacs around just as much as a laptop), then you can’t honestly say that they aren’t like laptops. If you want a desktop computer, then get a desktop computer, and not a half breed that you can’t fix, change or upgrade.
“But its so much prettier!” That’s a load. If you buy your computer based on looks alone, it deserves to suck and go to the trash heap.
temporarily /rant.
http://mart.ozmac.com Martin Hill
I’m sorry, you just admitted that “desktops do not suffer from the same inferior life span as a laptop because they’re not moved around nearly as much.”
But then you go and repeat your mantra that you wouldn’t buy an all-in-one because it breaks faster than a tower.
I’m finding it hard to follow your line of reasoning.
The fact that laptops break faster because they get moved around/bumped/dropped *does not mean* laptop parts are inferior to desktop parts.
If anything, laptop parts are engineered to withstand more violent handling to try and off-set the extra risks arising from mobility. For example, the 2.5” HD drives in laptops have accelerometers in them to automatically park the heads if they detect sudden movement to mitigate against head-crashes when being dropped.
As such, your argument against all-in-ones based on reliability does not stack up.
I previously mentioned my direct experience of the dozen 6-7 year old iMacs down the hall that all booted up and worked perfectly vs the seven 4-5 year old PowerBook G3s also in the same room of which only one would power on.
Now YMMV, but this has been my experience.
-Mart
http://www.frostedside.com/blog/ Rich Menga
I will clarify.
A slab is part desktop but mostly laptop. It only holds the title of desktop strictly because it’s not portable; the parts that make one up are not traditional desktop parts. Many slab parts are proprietary and smaller just like laptops.
The traditional desktop is the one with the longest life span, as in the one not made from smaller proprietary parts.
Michael
Why Rich ? Why did you anger the Mac gang? Obviously, from other postings across the web (ZDnet or Microsoft-watch etc) they are incapable of reason. They are without thought. They are borg
http://mart.ozmac.com Martin Hill
@Justin,
No one I know takes their iMac to work and brings it home every day or takes it into the classroom/boardroom for lectures/presentations or out on site for client presentations/work multiple times a day etc. You must have very compulsive friends with very big arm muscles.
As far as your “But its so much prettier!” point, I’ve not mentioned looks as reason (though for front desk reception or lounge room coffee table usage etc it is quite a valid point), but I do list built-in webcam, built-in stereo speakers, whisper-quiet operation, lack of cable-clutter, small desktop footprint, ease of installation etc as very valid reasons.
-Mart
Jake
This is silly. In neither post have you offered evidence that laptop components don’t last as long as tower components, given equal treatment. But that’s necessary for your argument to make any sense.
Plus, you seem to be using “proprietary” to mean something different than what it usually means. The iMac uses Intel Core 2 Duo chips, a Panasonic (I think) OEM optical drive, and a standard-size SATA hard drive. (This guy replaces his with a Hitachi one he bought: http://www.amfiteatar.org/content/view/155/78/lang,en/)
In what sense are these components “proprietary”?
Jake
Oh, and to the person who said “(everyone I know moves their iMacs around just as much as a laptop)”–really? You know people who take their iMacs to conference rooms for a meeting or to the cafe? I’m afraid I don’t buy it.
http://www.frostedside.com/blog/ Rich Menga
@Michael: Great question.
Fanatical Mac users (i.e. Mactards) don’t phase me. They can throw out all the personal insults and “You don’t know what you’re talking about” statements all day. Couldn’t care less. Heard it a million times before.
Martin Hill’s comments, for example, are spot-on and well worth the read. He is not a Mactard. He’s a Mac professional. You can tell he’s been around the block several times concerning Macs over the years. The guy is an excellent source of genuine good real-world (and not fanboy) Mac knowledge. And from what I gather he works in an environment where Macs are used most: Educational institutions.
I don’t argue with Martin because I can’t; he’s that good. Mart is the type of Mac user you’d want to know.
The Mactards who throw out personal jabs, on the other hand, can eat their hats as far as I’m concerned. And I’ll put them in their place every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Sticks
You’re simply incapable of putting anyone in their place, based on your junior high level thought processes displayed in your posts and responses. I’ll bet that a good number of the ‘Mactards’ you attempt to paint with a broad brush spend more time using Windows than you would imagine. Just for shits and giggles, how much time have you spent USING a current Mac in the past year?
Ruhayat
I have to agree with the Borg analogy. Why paste a rebuttal? It’s a no-win game with these guys unless you kneel down before their white obelisk.
Shane
Sensitive much? Perhaps you could simple try to phrase things with a little less jackassery?
Michael
I figured the Borg comment would get some replies because it seems to be true. I use Windows every single day. At work. At home. I have used Vista and thoroughly enjoy it. I am a technology professional for over 4 years. I am at my core a technology professional. I have used Mac’s and I do enjoy working with them but I grew up in a Windows ecosystem so I am at most comfortable with them. It is in my opinion that ANYONE who can not have a mature discourse about technology regardless of what form it takes (Windows or Mac’s) should not comment on sites such as this that offers help and insight to other end-users on the Internet. We are all here to learn from each other and to improve our understanding of the various tech gadgets that we use.
I have been around on the web for some time and if there is one thing that I have noticed is that it is popular beating to death the top dog and quoting lies propagated from other sites. Pcmech, continue to do what you do best and let the Mactards and Windoze or whatever clever name given continue to sell misinformation. It will be sites such as these that will inform other people of real world experience about technology. All-in-one’s do suck. I have real world experience with them. Yes, they really do suck.
Lastly, lets all try to remember that nothing is perfect. For Christmas I picked up an Ipod Touch. I feel it’s a decent mp3 player but its overhyped. My creative Zen has more functionality but I like the stylish nature of the Touch. Apple produces great consumer products. Windows has great enterprise software. Pro’s and Con’s to each. In the end please don’t be like the Borg. Its good to feel loyal to your company but don’t be blinded. I know Windows isn’t perfect but I use it because as a professional I see the need that it fulfills in an enterprise environment. I am not blinded to the security issues though. Always remember that technology is always moving and what is “hot” today will not be tomorrow.
http://mart.ozmac.com Martin Hill
@Rich Menga
Thanks for the compliments – yes, I work at a University here in Australia with 40,000 students and 6,000 staff and before that was computer support for 5 different computer resellers.
I also dislike knee-jerk fan-boys of any persuasion and far prefer a reasoned dialog to hurled insults. I’m afraid however that your use of the word Mactards was almost guaranteed to draw insults back in your direction from ome of the more impassioned Mac crowd, so it’s a little hard to criticise when you’re not exactly innocent yourself. I think you’ll find that there are actually a lot of Mac users like me who would love to engage in friendly discussion of hot topics if you don’t throw the first stone.
Just a suggestion.
@Ruhayat, now you’re falling into the trap of insults too without any carefully reasoned counter-arguments of your own. Not a good position to start from.
Anyway, I’d better go, it’s midnight over this side of the planet.
-Mart
Lokkison
Quote:
Using “WTF” is netspeak and is therefore retarded. Are you going to “LOL” me next?
My God you’re a fool, it is net speak and is synonymous with modern day communication on of all things the internet. So yes it’s netspeak. You sir in your ridiculous defensiveness are retarded.
Quote:
And what exactly is a “employeer”?
You grammar-nazi me and I’ll grammar-nazi you right back.
That’s aN you’re to use, notice the N!
Quote:
You fail.
Now YOU resort to ‘netspeak’, therefore YOU FAIL.
Michael
wow…..Lokkison..Did you even read my post. Lets be professional here.
Rich. This is your fault. You put the word “Mac” in your title here and that brought the borg. Now they wont leave. Thanks alot. =)
Ruhayat
I’m sorry, Martin, but in my experience being reasonable doesn’t mean much when you’re “discussing” with Mac fanboys. And the responses in this particular forum serves to just illustrate that further.
In other words, my comment is the total sum of my experience thus far.
I’ve been a Mac user since the blue & white G3 Power Mac. Used to buy new Powerbooks/iBooks every year since the 1998 Wallstreet because I wanted to do my bit in supporting a company I really admired, back when it was a struggling minnow. All in all, I have owned 11 Macs in 9 years.
But I stopped buying Macs in protest when Apple began exhibiting seriously naff tendencies against its users (my discontent began when it shafted Watson, a utility I was fond of). I started speaking out against them, and the responses I’d get were more akin to being attacked by a rabid bunch of squirrels.
At least the squirrels would have been cute.
Apple, you see, just could no wrong, and trying to prove otherwise is an exercise in futility. They really are like the Borg.
I came across this website just recently and I liked the overall philosophy of it. It would have been far more productive, I feel, for them to just continue doing what they have been doing and let the storm brew in its little teacup.
Ruhayat
By the way, Martin, Macs do fail. And the picture-frame iMacs are the most notorious for this, in my personal experience.
I work in the advertising & video production industry and do freelance work for a number of such companies. These people can’t afford to kit out Mac Pros to all their designers, and Apple won’t give them proper desktop computers, so they have had to resort to iMacs. About half of those iMacs purchased have had to go back for service within the first 6 months.
I almost wanted to say that the production quality started to go downhill when Apple became obsessed with form over function with the ultra-thin but problem-plagued Titanium models. But then I remembered that the hinges on my Wallstreet and Lombard Powerbooks have both had to be replaced.
In fact, of the 11 Macs I have owned, only the Power Mac G4 (which I still use), 400MHz Pismo and 466MHz iBook SE have never had to go back to the shop for repair. (Let’s not go back to the painful memory of the failed hinges and worn out video ribbon on the Wallstreet and the Lombard, shall we. Ah, the Lombard — that particular iteration was cursed, I tell you).
Ruhayat
Oh, just one more “by the way”, if you don’t mind, Martin:
I wouldn’t know if laptop parts are more fragile than desktop parts or not, but the probability of them failing is made higher because most of these parts are crammed into tiny spaces with frequently inadequate cooling.
I know for a fact that my laptop hard disks have failed far more regularly than my desktop drives. And I know that my Powerbook often gets so hot when doing design work (and even when I have one too many tabs open in a browser) that it often abandons everything and goes to sleep mode.
I also know that my Powerbook huffs and chuffs more than my Power Mac when working on the same Photoshop process, despite the Powerbook’s superior specs [1.33GHz G4, 1.25GB RAM, 56MB VRAM] vs [800MHz G4, 1.5GB RAM, 32MB VRAM] on the Power Mac.
Sorry for such long comments. But you did ask for “reasoned” responses.