Volume trouble -- and a Q on clipping.

[TwoRails]

I can't seem to get the volume high enough when converting my cassettes to CD or making remixes of my CDs. Lets say I'm playing from an external source thru the Line In of the computer. All mixer volume settings are set identical (but have experimented). The volume from the speakers will be OK. I record, make the CD, play the CD thru the same setup, and the volume is notably lower with all the same settings.

Being use to reel tape, you can saturate / record into the red, with little ill effect (depending on tape speed and tape quality) but at least you don't lose any data. I've found that when trying to increase the record volume on the computer and go into the red, you get much more severe clipping, but also a notable loss of data.

Just for testing only, I've even tried to make a CD from a commercial CD to see if there was any difference. The resulting CD still plays back at notably lower volume; I can not make a CD that plays at the same volume in this test.

So how do / can you increase the volume without clipping or data loss?

I'm at a total loss.... :)

TIA

TwoRails

[Stryker]

Hey TwoRails,
The software I use for capturing has a "gain" setting that was a little hard to find the first few times I used the software. The gain was set too high (opposite to your problem) and all my audio was 3x louder than everything else, and very distorted.

The confusing part was the gain setting was completely independant to the audio mixer in Windows. My line-in was set normally and the gain was still throwing it out of whack.

If you find a gain setting, you may also find that it's set too low, and the resulting captured audio would be very quiet. by the way, I'm using NeoTV as capture software, just in case you're wondering.

Hopefully this helps a bit,
Stryker :)

[SonicVanguard]

TwoRails - what software are you using? Is everything in the software set for 0 (zero) dB? Do you normalize what you've recorded to 0 (zero) dB before exporting your .wav/.mp3 file?

[TwoRails]

Hi Stryker,

I have a gain setting for the mic, but not for the Line In. I don't believe it's a gain setting as I can record at a lower level and everything (quality wise) is OK. I just can't recond "loud" enough to have the same volume as the orginal without creating distortion.

Hi SonicVanguard,

The box I'm doing the recording on has: 1) the recorder / editor that came with the Audigy 1 Platinum, 2) I've also tried the recorder / editor that came with Roxio 6 Deluxe, 3) and I'm starting to like Audacity, as it seems to have the smarter layout. All three give identical results from the same source. (Yes, I've actually recorded the same tapes with each.)

Excuse my lack of knowledge, but I've not "normalized" any recording, as I don't know what it does exactly. I simply "amplify" to max out the volume to the point of just under clipping / distortion if I don't get the record setting as high as possible, again without clipping / distortion.

The sound quality I'm getting is OK, and sometimes even "better" (thru EQ). It's just the I have to have the stereo cranked up to (almost) max to get the same volume as the original plays at when the stereo is set to about 2/3s or less.

[glc]

I may be barking up the wrong tree, but are your impedances matched in addition to voltage input/output requirements? There's more to this than just gain. Think analog.

[TwoRails]

I do believe so. This happens regardless of multiple sources, such as straight Line Out from a nice TEAC tape deck or even using the headphone jack on the Panasonic CD/Stereo/Tape combo unit. I have the problem on both my main box, Win XP Pro w/ Audigy 2 and my work shed box running Win 98.2 and an Audigy 1.

I first noticed this problem some time ago when I made a CD from a cassette and later wanted to increase the volume. No matter what I try, the "new" volume is always lower than the original.

[SonicVanguard]

Okay, stop thinking analog. Say to yourself, "Digital is Digital, Analog is old".

That being said, yes, when the signal path is analog, make sure everything is matched. But...once the signal is on your computer, you don't want to overmodulate the signal - not even a little. In the studio, we record at 32bit foating point resolution for a reason - so we can get every once of 'warmth and feel' out of what we are recording. When we go from that to CD or DVD, we've got to lower that resolution - that's where dithering comes is. In analog terms, dithering takes a hot signal down to a managable level (to keep it very simple).

Dithering also works the otherway - it will take a lower level signal and boost it to within a fraction of a % of clipping - it's called normalizing. Normalizing is the premise that what you've recorded does not peak at 0 dB (because in digital, we don't have to record that hot). The signal is then boosted to within a given tolerence.

Look around some of the setting on your software - see if it has a normalizing function. I know Nero's wave editor has it - as does Nero Burning ROM for making audio CDs.

[TwoRails]

I think I see how normalization works. I experimented a little and normalized a low volume track and everything was increased. It also lower a track that had too much volume. Audacity does have a check box to prevent clipping or not. It lowered some tracks from the recorded level while allowing others to be inceased.

I'll keep working on it!..

Thanks for all the help, Guys :)

TR

[SonicVanguard]

Audacity's clipping limiter is very flawed so becareful when using it. It will over-quantize your signal and you'll lose 'something' (dependant on the way they are limiting the signal).

As I said, with digital there is no need to record at or near 0dB - as long as your signal is good with little or no noise, you won't have a problem recording at a lower level - we almost always record around -6dB to give us some headroom.

[TwoRails]

OK, I'm trying to think "digital." :) - I'll no longer attempt to record at or near 0db.

On the box I'm using to record my cassettes I have the 3 programs mentioned above (Creative Wave Editor, Roxio 6's editor, and Audacity). Some where in my archived CD's, I have a legit, purchased version of Cool Edit 96, and I believe "Cubassis VST CD / Wavelab Lite" that came with the Audigy that I've never installed. Would Cool Edit or Cubasis be better than the other 3? Actually, I guess I sould ask which one of the 5 do you recommend?

Thanks. :)

[SonicVanguard]

Actually, WaveLab Lite would be the way to go. CoolEdit 96 is, well, old. Cubasis is Steinberg's simplified multi-track editor. Wavelab Lite is a scaled down version of one of the best stereo editors on the market.

[TwoRails]

Learn something new every day! I love it :) -- I'll be trying out WaveLab Lite the next time I get a sesson out in the work shed.

Thanks for tip!