Which Car for my Parents?

[thefultonhow]

Okay, so my mom currently has a 1992 Infiniti G20 (might be a Nissan Primera in Canada, and I know it is in Europe). It's a wonderful car -- underpowered, but it handles like a dream and it has the 5-speed manual, which is a joy to shift. Unfortunately, the engine has sprung what we're told is an unfixable oil leak, and se we're afraid the engine's days are numbered. :( As the car has a trade-in value of about $800 and a new engine is about $2500, we're looking into replacing the car.

Now, we bought the car right when we moved into our new house, and so that was before our first winter, when we discovered that you needed an AWD car to make it up the hill at the entrance to our development. If it started snowing during the day, it meant parking the car at the bottom of a hill and walking half a mile to our house. The final straw was when my dad totaled our 1986 Honda Accord that winter driving down the expressway into Baltimore when he hit a patch of glare ice. We vowed we would never get another car that wasn't AWD.

My parents and I also hate SUVs (we want something that's fun to drive), and we absolutely require a manual transmission. So that leaves a very limited number of options here in the States (Europe, with its high concentration of both AWD cars and stick-shift cars, is a different story, but we don't live there). Pretty much the only options in our price range are the Subarus, the Audi A4 Quattro (1.8T motor), the BMW 325xi, and the Volvo S40/V50. (The BMW 330xi, Audi A4 3.0, Allroad and S4, and the Volvo S60R/V70R fit the bill, but are way too expensive.) We're crossing the Impreza off the list because it's too small, and the Forester off the list because we already have one and we want something different. So that leaves the Subaru Legacy/Outback and the other three cars. My parents aren't averse to the 2.5GT/2.5XT, because they woudn't mind a bit more power, so I don't think I'd need to do much convincing to get them to go with that. :D

Another thing I should probably mention: they're not a big fan of leather, and my dad and I are tall enough that our heads bump the ceiling if we drive cars with sunroofs, so we definitely wouldn't get one. We might consider leather if, for example, we decide to get the 325xi, which doesn't have a cloth option.

So my question is, which car should we go for? Keep in mind that we want a good balance of performance/handling and fuel economy, and we want something reliable (as you can see by the fact that we're reluctantly giving up a 12-year-old car, we drive our cars for a loooong time, so the more reliable the car, the better an investment). I have heard the Volvo S40/V50 has wonderful handling and a great engine, but I'm not sure about reliability; the Subaru is a known quantity but I'm not sure that it would be able to match the Infiniti inthe handling department; The BMW is more expensive and clocth isn't available; and I have heard that Audi's reliability has been terrible, although it's recently improved (but by how much is the question).

Sorry for the extra-long post. I'll distill it down to a few bullet points:

We want:


AWD
Stick-shift
Cloth if possible
No sunroof
Best balance of fun to drive and economical
Reliable!


Choices:


Subaru Legacy/Outback
Volvo S40/V50 AWD
Audi A4 1.8T Quattro
BMW 325xi
Anything else you recommend

[Panama Red]

You missed the one I'd go for. Subaru Impreza WRX Sedan. (http://www.subaru.com/shop/overview.jsp?model=IMPREZA&trim=WRX_SEDAN&command=overview)

[thefultonhow]

Subaru Impreza WRX Sedan. (http://www.subaru.com/shop/overview.jsp?model=IMPREZA&trim=WRX_SEDAN&command=overview)

I don't really blame you for not reading my novel in-depth :p, but the Impreza is off the table because it's too small. My dad's last car was an Impreza, and it was a great little car, but nobody in my family could fit into the back seat at this point, and we're probably going to use this car for some shorter road trips (e.g. to visit our relatives in PA and VA), so we want something that will fit all four of us semi-comfortably.

EDIT -- we had the 1993 model, so if it's appreciably bigger, then we would possibly consider it.

[Panama Red]

Oops! Missed that chapter!

[rjfvillarosa]

Fulton you have me a tad confused, I know Jap engines tend to be a little weak and a little tinny, but an unrepairable oil leak?, what happened did someone take a hammer and chisel to the crank case? I have never come across an oil leak I couldn't repair, Ok maybe some major surgery might be involved but unless there is an actual hole in the block it can be repaired.
BTW I welded the water jacket on a 1948 Rover engine once so even holes in the block can be repaired, not recommended but possible.

[thefultonhow]

I have never come across an oil leak I couldn't repair, Ok maybe some major surgery might be involved but unless there is an actual hole in the block it can be repaired.

It's not unrepairable per se, it's just that the repair would cost as much as a new engine. In the end it's probably not worth it -- we don't have a lot of money to be throwing away but a new car might be a good investment for us.

[rjfvillarosa]

Some times it's "better the devil you know" if the rest of that Infinity is OK maybe try pricing up the oil leak repair.

[Jaggannath]

Outback... they're brilliant

[David M]

I don't think there are any large, inexpensive AWD's with gobs of horsepower. Seems the WRX or the Outback comes closest to fitting the bill. 3 out of 4 ain't bad :)

[thefultonhow]

Okay, I will put in a couple of votes for the Legacy/Outback. We might end up going with that anyway, as it starts at $21,000 and the turbo model (without the Limited package) maxes out at about $27,000, vs. $28,000 for the Volvo, $30,000 for the Audi, and $32,000 for the BMW. In the end the price may be more important than some of the other considerations. ;)

RJF, I actually did do a little bit of research on the internet last night, and SR20DE engines (used, of course), which is what the Infiniti has, can be had for as little as $600. We might just do that, because most of the other components in the car are in decent shape, or so it seems. My mom has told me to discuss it with our mechanic.

[rjfvillarosa]

I have a Subaru Legacy down here in PR and quite honestly I can't see what the fuss is all about with these cronks. It has what I consider to be a badly balanced, horizontally opposed twin engine that has inherrantly bad oil leaks, caused by major design flaws. The electrical system is garbage and every joint, suspension or steering requires changing every few years and the CV joints are constantly wearing out. I am glad this car was a hand me down because had I paid money for it I would be crying in my sleep now, the deal was I use the car in return for maintaining it, I am not so sure I got the right end of the stick. It's a crock of ******** and I wouldn't wee on it if it was on fire in the gutter.



******** think of the most derogatory word you can and insert here.

[thefultonhow]

RJF, what model year is is? If it's the 1989-1994 Legacy, I can see why you say that. My grandparents have two (a 1990, and then a 1992 which is my dad's daily driver right now since I'm driving the Infiniti), and I can attest to the fact that they're not very high-quality. However, everybody I know who has a 1995-onward Legacy/Outback says they're great cars, and the new generation actually won Car of the Year in Japan when it came out.

With that said, we have a 2001 Forester, and at 100,000 miles it is burning a little oil -- the engines are nice in terms of their power but you may be right that they're not great in terms of their mechanical design. Otherwise we have had almost no problems with the Forester -- it almost seems like it's just broken in at 100,000 miles and could go another 200,000 easily.

[rjfvillarosa]

I think it is a 94/95 model, despite my total annoyance with the crate and all the whistles and bangs it keeps going reguardless, one day I might do waht that guy in Florida did to his Le Sabre or a Basil Fawlty and put the damn thing out of it's misery.
Why don't you try and find a cheaper than $600 lump and rebuild it, then you would have the satisfaction of rebuilding the engine and you could erradicate all possibility of oil leaks for many miles to come.

[Redline]

Since you guys loved your G20 you may want to consider the Infiniti G35 AWD. It is a little pricier than the Subie but it is a great car, and has a great maual. Just a thought. You could also check out the Mitsubishi Evolution Vlll base model. The Evo is the Impreza's competitor.

[thefultonhow]

My mom would love to get a G35 (we've gotten them for loaner cars), but you can get AWD or a manual, but not both. If you get the manual, you're stuck with RWD, which is great for a lot of people, but not for us. Also, I'm not sure my parents would want the Evo -- though of course, I'd love it! ;)

[glc]

Rebuilding yours or another G20 engine doesn't take care of the AWD requirement.

If you can live with an automatic CVT transmission, take a look at the Ford 500/Mercury Montego.

[thefultonhow]

My parents will rue the day when they can no longer drive stick-shifts... Unless they get repetitive-strain injurys in their left legs, they will continue to get manuals, even if it means paying more.

I just wanted to ley you guys know of a positive development... My mom told me yesterday that since we're going to have to get a new car for her within the next couple of years anyway, they would buy one this summer and she would give me the G20, since I will probably need a car for whatever AmeriCorps position I get (I submitted the application last month and am already basically a shoe-in for a job here in Baltimore), and I will definitely need a car if I don't do AmeriCorps, as I will be working full-time. This will effectively be my first car, even though she will still be the registered owner.

[glc]

If you are thinking of replacing the engine in the G20, it shouldn't be too difficult finding a good used engine - it's the same engine that was in the Sentra SE-R.

[Sauron]

I don't know about the 2004 BMWs, but I do know that MOST BMWs are HORRIBLE in any type of weather except dry pavement. They were famous for years for being really skittish. I'd go with Subaru or Audi. The way I heard it, Audi had certain cars that weren't so great, and others were awesome. The new A4 (since 2003) is supposedly a excellent car.

[colecifer]

I've never heard a bad thing about volvo, from what i hear they make the safest car on the road and they are very reliable. My mom has a 1994 710(mabe 740 i'm not quite sure) and i can second what sauron says, its terrible in the snow. I thought it would do alright considerings its a frickin boat but it was fishtailing insanely last time it snowed. My front wheel drive 1989 toyota corolla 2 door coupe(we're talking tiny) had an easier time in the snow.

[thefultonhow]

Most BMWs and the older Volvos are RWD, so there's probably no comparison between their handling in inclement weater and that of AWD versions. Also, I actually am a little worried about Volvo's current reliablility -- my aunt has a pretty new S80 and it hasn't been the most reliable car (e.g. the radio failed within the first month).

My mom is really busy right now, but the local BMW dealerships are trying to clear out 2005 inventory by the end of the month to make room for the new 2006 models, so I'm probably going to go for a few test drives sometime next week.

[thefultonhow]

I went out and test-drove the Legacy 2.5i and the S40 2.4i (FWD) today. I'm not a big fan of the Legacy's shifter, but it seemed to handle pretty well (the roads the salesman had me take didn't really give an accurate representation, though). The S40 handled even better, and the engine was punchier on the low end (we would also be getting the more powerful engine because it's the only one that comes with AWD). The shifter was also very nice, but the brake pedal had a fair amound of travel before it started doing anything. However, it may be vey hard to get an S40 2.5T AWD with cloth seats and no sunroof. There are very few 2005 BMW 235xi's left -- none in the Baltimore area with a stick-shift -- so we would be looking at the 2006, which would end up being more expensive, so the BMW might be out. I didn't get a chance to look at the Audi, but it probably won't stack up well to the Volvo.

[colecifer]

Just found out today, my mom had the wrong size tires on her car. We just got them replaced, that could've been a big factor in its terrrible performance in the snow.

[thefultonhow]

I'm bumping this thread because I found the perfect car for my parents -- the Mazdaspeed6 (http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/displayPage.action?pageParameter=mazdaSpeed6). AWD, stick-shift, cloth seats, no sunroof, and best of all, a 274 hp turbocharged engine. They won't care about the engine, but it'll be nice for when I drive it :) . Also, Mazdas are reliable and cheap to fix when they do break, so it'll be a good long-term choice.

Speaking of long-term choices, my mom took the G20 for an emissions test and it failed the hydrocarbon part. She was going to keep the car around for me and my brother to drive, but if it is too expensive to fix, she might just get rid of it. The AC in it also has a leak, so it doesn't work properly :( .

[Jaggannath]

Mazda6's are excellent cars, my Dad and my oldest bro drive them

[IronMentality]

The Mazda 6 is an awesome car, glad you found a good replacement. I am surprised you didn't look at an all-wheel drive Ford Five Hundred or Mercury Montego!

It's an excellent car (the 500 is also built right on the South Side of Chicago), and is built with Volvo AWD technology.

[Hi Ho]

I am surprised you didn't look at an all-wheel drive Ford Five Hundred or Mercury Montego!

I believe the Mazda 6 and Ford 500 share platforms.

[thefultonhow]

I am surprised you didn't look at an all-wheel drive Ford Five Hundred or Mercury Montego!

It's an excellent car (the 500 is also built right on the South Side of Chicago), and is built with Volvo AWD technology.

The number-one reason why we didn't look at the Five Hundred/Montego is that they're not available with a stickshift. Number two is that although they probably handle fairly well, my mom is coming from the G20 and wants something that handles at least as well as it. That's kind of hard for a big car like the Five Hundred/Montego, and the fact that their suspensions are tuned for ride comfort doesn't help either.

Also, the Mazdaspeed6 is built with Volvo AWD technology too. :D

[thefultonhow]

I believe the Mazda 6 and Ford 500 share platforms.

Nope, the Mazda6 and the brand-new Ford Fusion share platforms. The Five Hundred gets its platform from the Volvo S80.

[Hi Ho]

That's it. I got the Fusion and the 500 mixed up. :) I knew it was something like that.

[Mr N8]

The Subaru Legacy and the Volvo S40 & V50 are excellent vehicles. I really wanted a Legacy GT when I bought my last car, but could not justify spending that kind of money on a commuter car. The manuals in both the Subarus and Volvos are very smooth and fun to drive. The Audi A4 has a very stiff manual that's a bit picky, but it's nice once you get the hang of it.

[David M]

I would look into an AWD with traction control if your parents are that concerned about getting traction...AWD is nice but not as good as a AWD with traction control which uses a computer to apply the brakes and reduce the throttle to reduce skidding. It's not the same thing as ABS its a little more sophisticated than ABS. I took a Crossfire (rental) out on a gravel road once and tried doing powerslides. It would not let me. It took the power off the throttle and applied the brakes to the correct tires and straightened the car right out of the little bit bit of slide that I was able to get. I was impressed. I turned the traction controll off and was able to powerslide the hell out of that car...yahoooo!

It does not necessarily have to be a car or truck with high ground clearance. All kinds of models have traction control.

[thefultonhow]

I would look into an AWD with traction control if your parents are that concerned about getting traction...AWD is nice but not as good as a AWD with traction control which uses a computer to apply the brakes and reduce the throttle to reduce skidding. It's not the same thing as ABS its a little more sophisticated than ABS.

Many AWD systems essentially include traction control as prt of their basic operation. The Crossfire probably had Dynamic Stability Control, which is even better. As far as I know, the Subaru and Volvo do not include DSC, and the Mazda, BMW and Audi do.