If you could buy any convertible under 35K

[David M]

If you could buy any convertible for under 35K, what would it be? I am getting the craving. Call it summer madness or a mid-life crisis ( I just turned 45) or whatever men my age go through, but I am getting sick of my existing car. I live in a pretty mild climate.

My contenders are the new Mustang, a slightly used BMW 325i or a slightly used Nissan 350Z. I'm not looking to pick up babes (happily married), just looking to drive something that is not boring, but is still practical for commuting.

What would be your choice and why?

[Floppyman]

BMW 'cause I'm German :D The new Mustang looks decent too though and will be bigger vehicle then the Beamer.

[Panama Red]

Chrysler Crossfire Roadster. (http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article_id=8116) With the deals currently available you can get into a nice one for under $35K. Top of the line goes for over $50. I just like the styling and all the reports call it HOT!

[Floppyman]

Chrysler Crossfire Roadster. (http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article_id=8116) With the deals currently available you can get into a nice one for under $35K. Top of the line goes for over $50. I just like the styling and all the reports call it HOT!

Interesting....18 valves on that V6. I suppose that means 1 in and 2 out. Do you know if they are using actual Mercedes designed engines in that one?

[Panama Red]

Good question, Flop. I'm not sure who made/designed the engine. Chrysler uses a lot of Mitusbishi stuff too.

[enhanced08]

i would have to agree with PR on this one IF i were to get a convertible. i don't like them because they are heavier than the hard tops which means it goes slower and slow isn't good. lol

[DonVito]

I know a guy who has one of these nissan Z's and it is SWEET. :D :eek:

http://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/ModelAttributes/0,,121454|31001|,00.html

[LA22]

Get a Soft Top Jeep.

[Floppyman]

and if you feel like saving for a couple more years how about a Ferrari Spyder 430? *drool* :)

[Byte 2.0]

No question, Myself I would go with the Mustang.

When it comes to cars/trucks, I have Motorcraft oil in my veins.

[Jaggannath]

The Crossfire looks smoooooooooooooth

[glc]

The 3.2 V6 in the Crossfire is the actual Mercedes engine.

[Floppyman]

And I suppose the underlying Chassis might be too? If so, I'd definitely go for it.

[Tin]

'75 Chevy Caprice convertible. of course id toss an LS1 and a 4L60E in it so i could drive it and get more than 10mpg....but ive always been partial to the freighters myself :D. oh yeah...id have to put some nice 17" wheels and paint it tripple gloss black too.

[hobey19]

Definitely a Z, but hey, i am somewhat biased. i absolutely love everything Z.

i am also really partial to Honda s2000. throw a hard top on there and you will be getting close to your 35k, but they look slick as heck. plus, they are a lot of fun to drive.

the big problem i have with every single convertible mentioned in this thread (including my beloved Z) is that a convertible ruins the lines on the car. they look fabulous with the top down, but the minute you put the top up, its just ruined. thats the only reason i say go with a hard top whenever possible, because it maintains the beauty of the coupe while still giving you the option of a convertible

craig

[David M]

Thanks for the Chrysler Crossfire suggestion Panama. That's a really sweet looking car and its available with 330 Hp engine that will get it to 60 mph in 5 seconds...although a bit pricy. Still though, the 220 hp engine is not a budget buster.

I did learn that the only difference between the BMW 325i and the 330 in horsepower (about 80 hp) is the computer module. The engines are identical. Of course resetting the onboard computer invalidates the warranty.

Hobey, your right about ragtops ruining the lines of the car when the top is up, but hey, thats one of the compromises.

So now I am up to 4 contenders in order of preference so far.
BMW 325i
Nissan 350Z
Chrysler Crossfire
Ford Mustang

I like the Japanese reliability of the 350Z but I also realize the Crossfire and BWM also have reliable German engines with the Crossfire being a Mercedes engine. The resale value of Ford's is not the greatest but that 300hp engine on the Mustang sure sounds fun.

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

I usually research the hell out of most everything I buy. It's fun to be well informed. The internet makes it easy.

Next is the good part/bad part. Test driving the car/putting up with the dealer pressure to buy. I learned never to enter their office after the test drive years ago unless I feel I am ready to buy.

Have you guys ever taken a test drive because you REALLY liked a car but had no intention of buying? I have to admit I have done it a few times.

How would you guys buy a new car or used car? Online? Dealer? Other ideas? I hate dealer pressure and all the mind games they play.

The last car I purchased was through Costco buyers program which got me a great deal.

[zyphera]

I would get a '89 Volkswagen Cabriolet. That's what I had upuntil it got hit by a snowplow :( It was a very good car.

[David M]

I really like the old convertible Beetle ragtops. I would consider one but they don't have any horsepower and no modern safety features. The white ones in cherry condition look really cool. I think the last year they made the classic Bug was 1975. I realize your 89 is a different animal...sorry about the snowplow..ouch!

I have seen the new Bug convertibles. They are not my style...too much of a girly car...LOL...no offense intended.

[i3OSS]

Honda S2000

[David M]

OK...I am adding the Honda S2000 to the list. I have always liked Honda's quality. My wife BTW wants a Honda Accord Hybrid when her Civic dies. The Accord Hybrid has 250 hp which is pretty amazing for any hybrid and gets in the upper 30's mpg on the highway. I hope she does not use all that horsepower..hee hee. One does not need to drive one of those ugly Toyota Prius to save on gas. Why are most all the hybrids so ugly?

[Fastfly]

IF you are adding a S2000, I would look at a 2003-2004 3.0L BMW Z4. A Z4, although being a convertible, has a spacious trunk unlike the S2000.

http://www.newcarsnetwork.com/images/Bmw%20Z4.jpg


The 325i and the 330i have two different engines and besides the obvious displacement difference and output difference you have different internals.

[thefultonhow]

I would go with either the 325i or the S2000. If you get the 325i, though, make sure it has a stick-shift -- it's just that much more fun that way. The Mustang is also appealing, but they're really hard to get right now, and I personally think that the Bimmer or the Honda would have better handling. I don't really care about the straight-line performance as much as I do the amount of fun you can have in the twisties.

My friend has a 325i sedan 5-speed with the Sport package, and it's a hoot to drive. You can feel every little crack in the road too -- there are no layers of insulation to dull the handling.

One more thing -- I personally would skip the Crossfire, because it's based on the last-gen SLK, which was apparently not that great in terms of handling.

[HAL9000]

Everyone knows I'll have to take a pot shot at the Mustang. IMHO, a Ford is an accident waiting to happen. They just had a recall for their new trucks with ... sigh.. go figure.. electrical problems yet AGAIN where they can burst into flames without even running or the key in the ignition. What gets me, is it's in the cruise control.... why on earth is there even power in the cruise circuit when the thing is turned off???? My Mustang burned to the ground due to electrical issues as have many (plus other models) due to electrical problems. It seems to me that this is a common theme that should be cured by now. I could see a possibility of an electrical fire in a running vehicle, but when one is shut off and doesn't even have a key in the ignition, most circuits should be down.

[Mac Medic]

SLK dude!. Used but still a great car, Not a 500 but still nice.

[DonVito]

Everyone knows I'll have to take a pot shot at the Mustang. IMHO, a Ford is an accident waiting to happen. They just had a recall for their new trucks with ... sigh.. go figure.. electrical problems yet AGAIN where they can burst into flames without even running or the key in the ignition. What gets me, is it's in the cruise control.... why on earth is there even power in the cruise circuit when the thing is turned off???? My Mustang burned to the ground due to electrical issues as have many (plus other models) due to electrical problems. It seems to me that this is a common theme that should be cured by now. I could see a possibility of an electrical fire in a running vehicle, but when one is shut off and doesn't even have a key in the ignition, most circuits should be down.



These days i really hessitate buying american cars. I know thats not very patriotic or anything but i find foreign cars are much more well made.

[Jaggannath]

FORD = Found On Rubbish Dump
BMW = Beautiful Motoring With

And I agree David, why are hybrids such ugly mofos... I wouldn't drive one voluntarily at the moment

[colecifer]

I personally hate the design of the new mustang, i like the idea of going with a more retro design because i love the old style grill but i can't stand how it turned out. I'd say go with what fastfly posted because i really really hate the new mustang.

[Hi Ho]

Well I love the new Mustang. I've wanted one ever since I saw it. That would be my choice. :)

[thefultonhow]

FORD = Found On Rubbish Dump

Or FORD = Fix or Repair Daily.

And I agree David, why are hybrids such ugly mofos... I wouldn't drive one voluntarily at the moment

I personally like the look of the Prius more than I do that of the Accord/Accord Hybrid. Unfortunately, the Prius does not come with a stick shift. I heard somewhere that the Civic Hybrid does, but I've never seen a manual one, so I'm not sure how true that is.

[enhanced08]

Or FORD = Fix or Repair Daily.


Ford in reverse - Driver Returns On Foot

[Panama Red]

Shame on you enhanced! You know better than to use that type language here.

---------------moderator-------------------

[enhanced08]

i'm sorry!

[David M]

I gave it some more thought over the weekend and I really need a car that has 4 seats so I can take my son and wife with on road trips. Looks like I need to eliminate the S2000, and the Crossfire. Too bad, they are both really sweet cars. From what I am hearing from you guys, I am leaning towards the BMW. Besides, I have always driven ordinary cars. I think its time to buy something really nice thats fun to drive.

I am concerned about Ford's quality and I know that Ford's depriciates quickly in value. I did drive a Ford Escort in my mid to late twenties which was good for 170k miles before the engine self destructed, so apparently there are some reliable Ford's... maybe. Maybe though is not good enough. I am very pro-american but this does not mean I have to buy american if its not advantageous to do so. Ford just needs to get its act together, especially with the electrical problems. Remember all the elecrical problems Jaguar used to have with the Lucas electrical components? It's ironic that Ford buys Jag and now Ford has the electrical problems.

Does the 350Z have a four seat ragtop? All I am finding are two seaters.

Check this out: http://www.wreckedexotics.com/350z/350z_20040314_001.shtml Read the reason for the wreck...sheesh. Check out some of the other wrecks which have Lambroginis and Ferraris and the reason they wrecked. $400,000 to $1000 in 0.1 seconds....now thats fast!

Does anyone know of a website where you can compare a cars features side by side?

So I am left with 3 contenders in order of preference:
BMW 325i
Nissan 350Z
Ford Mustang

[mbossman2]

the mini cooper-s convertible is kind of cool...the Mustang is up there (my F-I-L just bought one as a matter of fact) as well

[Hi Ho]

The electrical problems that Ford had and recalled were on the previous generation F-150 and Expedition. There have been no such problems on any newer vehicles. The Mustang is too new to know how reliable it will be but the old one was quite good in that aspect.

I know that my 1977 F-250 doesn't speak much for newer vehicles but I have 473,000 on it and it still works fine except for the fact that it needs a new fly wheel.

[HAL9000]

Sorry Hi-Ho... my concern on a Ford is they have a long term history of electrical issues causing fires. A quick search shows as recent as the 2004's... the 5's will be soon enough to follow.. mark my words on that one.

[Iniamyen]

#1 on my list would be the late model Toyota MR2 Spyder, although they have stopped making them and now they are ostensibly "collector's items." They only cost (ed) around $24K. My dad got one and the thing is SO fun to drive. Only 140 horsepower, but the thing's so light it feels like 250. Handles like no other, redlines at 8000 RPM I think. It really is a cheap, Japanese version of an overpriced Porsche Boxster and it's better in many ways.

#2 would be a new Honda S2000. Similar to the MR2 and Boxster, better engine but looks a little "chunkier." Still an awesome car although I've never driven one.

#3 Would be a used Corvette convertible. Now that the C6 is out expect to start finding great deals on the C5 models (even the convertibles.) You wouldn't have to go back more than a few years to find one under $35K.

[SARGE]

Black 1963 Corvette bought at a show. Very sweet with lots of hosses under the hood.

[Marke522]

Ford = Found on road Dead.

I second the early motion to get a Jeep. Definately under the $35,000 range, and you can get them many different ways. Hardtop, softtop, bikini cover, full doors, half doors, no doors at all... There are so many different ways to drive your car you could have a different car everyday for about 2 weeks. I've had a Jeep Wrangler for about 4 years now and I really gotta tell you the best thing is the 4 wheel drive. There can be some harsh winter storms here in Kansas City, but what is worse than the storms, are the other motorists that don't know what they're doing on the road. The 4WD helps to out manuver all the idiots. :D

But having to choose from your list...,BMW. I have always loved German automobiles, and have long wanted a Porsche. I will have one someday, despite my wifes laughter. :p

I remember Nissan had a Z + 2, but I don't think that came in a convertable.

[mb26]

hm i would be very drawn to atleast consider an SLK.. i would perhaps get a moderately aged Jaguar XK, as i really love the look of them..
from your list it would have to be the BMW imo

my advice (particularly as ur looking for a good driving experience) would be to go out and test drive as many as u are interested in.. u'll get a much better idea of the quality of the cars and the drive quality etc etc.


for the ford bashing, here in europe the mainstream fords seem 100% reliable.. both of my parents have them now and (despite being common as muck) i'm really starting to like them.. having said that i wouldn't buy a 4x4, MPV or anything attempting to be a sports car from them.. these seem to be the areas where the problems occur if they do.. and, 95% of cars now-a-days are pretty relibale (other than certain french ones..)

[Sauron]

I wouldn't touch the Crossfire after what I have seen and read. Its basically a beautiful designed car with old Mercedes SLK parts. And it doesn't have anything to spice the car with and actually, I hated it. Bloody thing is really difficult to see out of and you sit so low in it. Other things I have heard about it is that it isn't that well made (might as well just go out and get a SLK) and well, I am sorry, but have you seen the new Audis? I don't know much about the 350Z except Top Gear considered it pretty much to the dogs. I love the new Mustang look, its really good looking and it is finally a masculine looking car again (much like the new Dodge Charger).

[Mac Medic]

of the two, BMW & Mustang, I would go with the BMW, I'm very happy with mine. The new mustang chassis is nice but it still doesn't handle like the bimmer. Go test drive each and see what you think.

[DonVito]

And I agree David, why are hybrids such ugly mofos... I wouldn't drive one voluntarily at the moment[/QUOTE]



I know i would buy a hybrid the next time i get a car if they just made them look normal. Id feel like an idiot driving one of those prias's around. They look like a space ship or something. :D

[Hi Ho]

Hybrids are starting to look more normal. The Ford Escape Hybrid doesn't look any different than the standard model. The Honda Civic and Accord Hybrids look the same as the standard models. Lexus has a couple new hybrid models that look normal. I agree that the Toyota Prius and Honda Insight are ugly.

[Jaggannath]

That's what I don't understand... the technology isn't that different, why not mount them in a normal chassis

[Floppyman]

Perhaps they were going for a more "futuristic" look.

[HAL9000]

Electrics and hybrids had a much uglier look to them because it all came down to aerodynamics.... the technology wasn't "quite" there, but as efficiency improves, they can make a more pleasing looking vehicle that is a little uglier to the air around it.

[colecifer]

I Highly reccomend a BMW, i drove my mom's for a while when i didn't have a car and that bad boy was still running strong at 196,000 miles. Along the way there was of course problems but nothing ever major, the car was still in pretty good shape when we got rid of it except the paint job had gone bad.

[sdkfz]

That would be my choice - but you threw in a 4 seater req later on so that is out, it sells for about 15,000 but that is unassemble and ependant on the exchange rate.


http://www.se7ens.net/faq/7faq.htm#BuyingASeven

[David M]

Thanks for the suggestions on the Mini Coper and the MR-2. Those cars are too small for my wife (not that she is large, she is a size 4..LOL)....she is concerned about safety.

I did come across the Chrysler Sebring convertible...too large and I don't know about the quality.

Overall, considering safey, seating capacity, fuel economy, relaibility, resale value, FUN, and drivability in bumber to bumber traffic, commute car qualities and looks. I have decided to go with the BMW 325ci.

Thanks guys for all your suggestions and great ideas. Much appreciated! :)

[DonVito]

I think thats a good choice for what you need.

Keep 'er under a hundred now!! :D

[Iniamyen]

Is the 2.5L the biggest engine they put in BMW 3-series convertibles? Do they have a 330? Probably costs more but you are already spending so much... ;)

[David M]

The BMW 330 has a 3.0 liter engine, vs the 325 2.5 liter engine. There is about a 6k MSRP price difference between the two cars and the only difference is the horsepower and the wheels...50 series 17 inch vs 55 series 16 tires. This is for the 2005 models.

For 2006, the 325 and 330 engines are both 3 liter engines with 215 HP and 255 HP respectively.

I don't know yet if I want new or used. There are lots of HP vs cost issues to figure out. I can't see spending thousands more for a few more ponies under the hood..but then womping on the gas and getting pushed back in your seat sure is fun.

[Fastfly]

yeah they have a 330ci.

Anyways, Welcome to the Bimmer Community!

http://home.comcast.net/~mitchellowen/bimmerfamily.jpg

[David M]

Test drive this weekend :)

[Statica]

Those new 3 series look amazing!

[mountainking]

sorry to all ford bashers but my dad has a work truck he has put so many miles on because he is retired and travels a TON. He has 275k miles on the thing and has not had 1 problem with the engine. The thing still runs like new. Its a 1997 ford f250.

[ric449]

Good old German reliability, can't beat it. Our family buys Volkswagen exclusively, and not once has something gone disasterously wrong, never had any problems that can't be fixed by a quick 10 minutes at the garage. I would have went for the BMW too, good choice.

[Floppyman]

Good old German reliability, can't beat it. Our family buys Volkswagen exclusively, and not once has something gone disasterously wrong, never had any problems that can't be fixed by a quick 10 minutes at the garage. I would have went for the BMW too, good choice.

Jawohl! My parents drive Volkswagen exclusively as well (Passat), and my sister recently got a slightly used '03 Jetta. They are great cars. I'm the only one in the family who is driving domestic (Pontiac), but hey, I wanted sporty and you get what you can afford right?:) My favorite German car is still Mercedes-Benz, but that's because I had a grandfather who would only buy Mercedes and so I really began to like their cars. Have fun with the new BMW, you won't regret your purchase.

[thefultonhow]

Good old German reliability, can't beat it.

You can now...

According to Consumer Reports reliablity statistics:


Mercedes-Benz is poor across the board. The M-class is famous for its build problems.
VW is mediocre on several of their cars. There is evidence that several of their engines have serious durability problems.
Audi is only now improving on the A4, but the A6 and A8 still get poor marks.
The BMW 3 series is still good, but the reliability of the 5 and 7 series has gone into the tank. The 7 is 190% worse than the industry average for luxury cars.


American cars (yes, including Ford) are now significantly more reliable than many German cars. Japanese cars, as always, are the most reliable, but Korean cars are getting up there too. My new job has a Hyundai Tuscon that I get to drive, and it is solid. The doors close with the same satisfying thunk as BMW doors do.

[Jaggannath]

That's the surprising thing I noticed when I bought my Hyundai... instead of churning out cheap junk, the Korean brands were actually charging a little more and getting better quality, which came with the experience. Mazda has been unbeatable to quality in my family though

[lil Jimmie]

Me personally I'd get a Dodge Charger SRT8 and trick it out.... makin' it a convertible would be one of the mods.

[Floppyman]

You can now...

According to Consumer Reports reliablity statistics:


Mercedes-Benz is poor across the board. The M-class is famous for its build problems.
VW is mediocre on several of their cars. There is evidence that several of their engines have serious durability problems.
Audi is only now improving on the A4, but the A6 and A8 still get poor marks.
The BMW 3 series is still good, but the reliability of the 5 and 7 series has gone into the tank. The 7 is 190% worse than the industry average for luxury cars.


American cars (yes, including Ford) are now significantly more reliable than many German cars. Japanese cars, as always, are the most reliable, but Korean cars are getting up there too. My new job has a Hyundai Tuscon that I get to drive, and it is solid. The doors close with the same satisfying thunk as BMW doors do.

I will agree with you in that I've heard that a lot of the German cars have electrical issues and the like -- most are pretty tricked out with gadgets here and there, not your standard Ford Taurus. I think the lower end German models (be it Benz, BMW, VW, or whatever) are still pretty reliable. It seems (to me at least) the more fancy cars get, the more issues they have. The same can hold true for computers.

[Panama Red]

Me personally I'd get a Dodge Charger SRT8 and trick it out.... makin' it a convertible would be one of the mods.

Your idea gets my vote, Jimmie! :cool: "And on the 8th day, God created the Hemi!"

[mountainking]

Your idea gets my vote, Jimmie! :cool: "And on the 8th day, God created the Hemi!"

and on the 9th day god created idiots that slap 5 inch mufflers and huge spoilers on the back of their 1.6 liter I-4 honda civics. check out this funny attatchment:

[HAL9000]

sorry to all ford bashers but my dad has a work truck he has put so many miles on because he is retired and travels a TON. He has 275k miles on the thing and has not had 1 problem with the engine. The thing still runs like new. Its a 1997 ford f250.

Take note... I never bashed the engine, I think it's probably as good as the rest... but they keep screwing up on electrical and have been doing so for at least 30 years contiuously now. The engine isn't much good in a burnt out shell of a car.

[Hi Ho]

My 77 F-250 with 473,000 miles has never had electrical problems. Many of my family members have owned Ford vehicles (including Taurus, Mustang, F-Series trucks, Explorer, etc.) and haven't had any problems. I can say the same for GM, however, family members and friends that have owned GM cars/trucks haven't been happy with them. Too many little things seem to go wrong, not to mention the major problems such as a new engine in a Chevy Malibu at 10,000 miles, brakes, starters, crankshaft seals, computer problems, poor build quality, etc. I'd Take a Ford over GM any day.

[HAL9000]

And you can go right ahead and keep supporting a company that underbuilds their cars.

[Hi Ho]

What do you mean by underbuild? I don't see the correlation. Most GM vehicles I get in seem cheaply made with ill fitting parts, cheap flimsy plastic, exposed screws, flimsy body panels, squeaks/rattles, etc. For me that doesn't inspire much confidence in the quality of the rest of the vehicle, including the electrical system and engine. In fact, it was an electrical problem that burned up my uncles TrailBlazer on the side of the highway.

[mountainking]

lol. My neighbor got a chevy trailblazer 2 weeks ago... yesterday driving down the highway, the plastic luggage rack came detatched at one end and was flapping around. It put some major dents in the roof as well... you cant tell me that GM is making "well" built cars when crap like that happens. My dads GMC saffari started getting rattles 4 months after he had it... his truck has no raddles in it right now. He had put 5k miles on the safari and rattles... okay he has 275k on the ford truck and nothing raddles... Im not saying that ford is better... im just sharing my personal expirience. Guess what... I HAVE A GM CAR TOO lol. Hummer h2... i absolutly hate the piece of crap. The thing gets terrible gas milage... and has trouble going up a friggen hill when im towing a 2,000 pound boat. its pathetic. Ill never get one of these again. Expecially when i drive 50 miles to work every day. I burn 10 gallons of gas just in 1 day of driving. And yes i get about 10 mpg highway lol.

[HAL9000]

What do you mean by underbuild? I don't see the correlation. Most GM vehicles I get in seem cheaply made with ill fitting parts, cheap flimsy plastic, exposed screws, flimsy body panels, squeaks/rattles, etc. For me that doesn't inspire much confidence in the quality of the rest of the vehicle, including the electrical system and engine. In fact, it was an electrical problem that burned up my uncles TrailBlazer on the side of the highway.

Not sure how this became a Ford/GM debate.. as when I brought up Ford, I made no mention of any favorite brand. I've had GM's that have been good to me, Dodge good to me, had a Mazda loaned to me for a year that was a great car, a Ford Festiva (Check it out... not really a Ford, but rather built by Kia), great lil car to bomb around town and plow thru ridiculous amounts of snow in. So not listing a fav, just stomping on what I feel is a flaming bag of doo doo.

Something as simple as using too small of a guage of wire on an alternator... and lets not do it for one year.. lets do it on pretty much every model car and truck made from 1987 to 1993. It was the cause of my Mustang going up in flames as is the cause of many other under wired Fords. This causes excessive heat in the wiring, causing the plastic alternator connector to melt, causing a ground and if you're LUCKY, just a dead alternator. Ford runs way too many live circuits when the vehicle is turned off too instead of running a relay to shut things down... I repeat my earlier post.. wanna tell me why you need power to the cruise control module when the car is turned off? I have yet to believe that any Ford could go the miles that you claim without an ignition module failure. Everyone that I know that is high on Ford products carries a spare in their garage as the things are always crapping out.

Anyway... this leads this thread way off topic... if ya wanna bash back and forth, take it to PM please... I've had my experience with a Ford and will never go back. I've had countless GM's including my old ghetto wagon that I literally ran the crap outta it and if you're lucky, changed the oil 3 or 4 times in the 5 years I owned it... bought it with 91,000 miles, sold it with 215,000 miles and 4 years later, I still see it bombing around. My Sunfire, one of the best cars I have ever owned.. currently with 107,000 miles and running like it's barely broken in.

[mountainking]

Not sure how this became a Ford/GM debate.. as when I brought up Ford, I made no mention of any favorite brand. I've had GM's that have been good to me, Dodge good to me, had a Mazda loaned to me for a year that was a great car, a Ford Festiva (Check it out... not really a Ford, but rather built by Kia), great lil car to bomb around town and plow thru ridiculous amounts of snow in. So not listing a fav, just stomping on what I feel is a flaming bag of doo doo.

Something as simple as using too small of a guage of wire on an alternator... and lets not do it for one year.. lets do it on pretty much every model car and truck made from 1987 to 1993. It was the cause of my Mustang going up in flames as is the cause of many other under wired Fords. This causes excessive heat in the wiring, causing the plastic alternator connector to melt, causing a ground and if you're LUCKY, just a dead alternator. Ford runs way too many live circuits when the vehicle is turned off too instead of running a relay to shut things down... I repeat my earlier post.. wanna tell me why you need power to the cruise control module when the car is turned off? I have yet to believe that any Ford could go the miles that you claim without an ignition module failure. Everyone that I know that is high on Ford products carries a spare in their garage as the things are always crapping out.

Anyway... this leads this thread way off topic... if ya wanna bash back and forth, take it to PM please... I've had my experience with a Ford and will never go back. I've had countless GM's including my old ghetto wagon that I literally ran the crap outta it and if you're lucky, changed the oil 3 or 4 times in the 5 years I owned it... bought it with 91,000 miles, sold it with 215,000 miles and 4 years later, I still see it bombing around. My Sunfire, one of the best cars I have ever owned.. currently with 107,000 miles and running like it's barely broken in.

lol wow i never knew you had such strong opinions against ford.

[thefultonhow]

Frankly, I haven't had a lot of experience with domestics, but most of it has left me unimpressed. My work also has an Explorer and an Escape, and compared to the Hyundai their interior quality is terrible -- hard plastics and ugly design everywhere. Plus there is absolutely no reason for them to have column shifters when they can do what the Hyundai does and put the lever on the bottom of the center stack -- and then in the Escape, when the car is in Drive, the shifter blocks the radio controls.

We had a Dodge Intrepid as a rental a while back, and I just remember being able to stick my hand under the headliner back behind the rear window. The foam above the headliner fabric was exposed too.

And finally, virtually no GM I have ever seen has left me particularly impressed. I think they're doing good things with the Cadilac line, and the new Corvette, but for me to buy a GM it would have to be thousands less than a comparable Japanese car.

I'm trying to look up reliability on German cars on Consumer Reports's website, but my internet is acting up. I'll check it out in the morning if I remember.

EDIT: I just looked up the last-gen Jetta -- reliablity, despite making strides in recent years, is only "fair" (second-lowest rating). Not that great if you ask me.

[Floppyman]

I guess I have not seen a Consumer Reports issue in a while so I can't vouch one way or the other, however, when compared to a good amount of domestic vehicles (not necessarily all), I still believe German cars are more reliable. I realize and strongly agree with you that Japanese cars are the most reliable out there. As the matter fact, I'm thinking of selling my domestic "tank" for a smaller Toyota or Honda when I head off to Graduate School. Gas prices and reliability is something I'm strongly concerned about at that point, especially since I'll be using the same car for the next 5-10 years down the road (no pun intended).

[DonVito]

I realize and strongly agree with you that Japanese cars are the most reliable out there. As the matter fact, I'm thinking of selling my domestic "tank" for a smaller Toyota or Honda when I head off to Graduate School. Gas prices and reliability is something I'm strongly concerned about at that point, especially since I'll be using the same car for the next 5-10 years down the road (no pun intended).[/QUOTE]


My dad has a 95 Lexus LS400 that he got a GREAT deal on a few years back. Man is that thing solid. You can tell the quality in every little part. from the doors, engine, power windows, shifter, sound system, even the foot pedals. I know most people wouldn't find theres that much difference in pedals but when its there you can tell. My uncle bought a 2004 suburban a couple months ago and spent like 40k. Hes already havin to change the speakers and deck couse it sounds so bad. IMO, typical american made, a 40k vehicle and a $20 sound system. the rubber lineing around the doors is already coming off and the thing rattles like a lumber wagon. to me its little things like that that separate forieng cars from american ones.

[mountainking]

my wifes driving a 2003 mitsubishi evoloution right now and the thing is SOLID. Never had any problems with it... amazing acceleration... and the thing has handling better than ive ever seen on any car before. I can turn so quickly around a corner and not lose any control in her vehicle.

[Mac Medic]

The BMW is a very good choice, welcome to the club.

[hobey19]

my wifes driving a 2003 mitsubishi evoloution right now and the thing is SOLID. Never had any problems with it... amazing acceleration... and the thing has handling better than ive ever seen on any car before. I can turn so quickly around a corner and not lose any control in her vehicle.

now that is a slick car. i want one so bad. especially the MR edition, heck with the VIII. 276hp on a family sedan and AWD is going to make it a very nice car for me

craig

[Marke522]

The worst car I have ever owned in my life was a Pontiac Bonneville. You name it, it went wrong. Bad headgasket twice, wasn't running when I finally sold it. Best card I ever owned was a Nissan Sentra. Absolutley loved it. Rear ended someone when it was sleeting. After the accident is still started and ran like a charm, but there was fram damage and it was a total loss.

Right now I've had a 1998 Wrangler for 4 years with 120,000 miles and replaced nothing but sparkplugs and tires, my wife has had a 1993 Grand Voyager LE for 8 years now, and still original transmission and engine after 190,000 miles. It did get stuck in Limp Mode a few summers ago, and it took 3 weeks to find out it was only a relay.

If I had to go car shopping today, I would be hard pressed not to buy another Chrysler product. Unless I get my Prosche. :D

[David M]

Wow...you guys are more serious about your cars than your computers! I'm really enjoying the comments/debate. Personally, I don't care if you guys take the thread off topic. The material is very interesting.

[inflames988]

those are all pretty sweet choices. I have always been a BMW fan (im german also, but i definetely dont like all german cars). I do like all 3 choices u mentioned, however in the bmw and 350z id take a coupe over a convertible. I know they all look great with the top down, but i dont like the look of most cars with the top UP. Of the 3 i like the 350z best as a coupe, but i'd take the bmw as a convertible. Anyone know offhand the horsepower in the new stangs?

[David M]

I really do like the coupes better from a fun/looks perspective but I know I will need to haul around more than one person. Some smart-aleck on another auto website said coupes are for people with one friend and sedans for those with many friends...whatever. I thought it was funny. :) The 350 Z seemed like a better car from a price/performance perspective and a cost/reliability perspective but unfortunatly the convertible is a two seater.

Yesterday I went over to the dealer just to take a look at the car on my way to work. A really neat feature about the car is the A-pillar (the part that supports the windshield) is built to support 2 1/2 times the weight of the car and there are hidden roll bars in the rear headrests that pop up in the event of a roll over. I thought it was pretty neat technology. I was pretty concerned about rolling over in a convertible..especially with my son in the back seat.

The new Mustangs are up to 300 HP stock. I wonder if Ford is still making the Shelby Mustang?(not the original of course) :) I think Rouche Racing is still modifying the Mustang..not sure.

[mountainking]

now that is a slick car. i want one so bad. especially the MR edition, heck with the VIII. 276hp on a family sedan and AWD is going to make it a very nice car for me

craig

yeah and she gets 26 mpg on it too since its only a 4 cylinder... she has the MR edition.

I really do like the coupes better from a fun/looks perspective but I know I will need to haul around more than one person. Some smart-aleck on another auto website said coupes are for people with one friend and sedans for those with many friends...whatever. I thought it was funny. :) The 350 Z seemed like a better car from a price/performance perspective and a cost/reliability perspective but unfortunatly the convertible is a two seater.

Yesterday I went over to the dealer just to take a look at the car on my way to work. A really neat feature about the car is the A-pillar (the part that supports the windshield) is built to support 2 1/2 times the weight of the car and there are hidden roll bars in the rear headrests that pop up in the event of a roll over. I thought it was pretty neat technology. I was pretty concerned about rolling over in a convertible..especially with my son in the back seat.

The new Mustangs are up to 300 HP stock. I wonder if Ford is still making the Shelby Mustang?(not the original of course) :) I think Rouche Racing is still modifying the Mustang..not sure.


yep they are making shelby editions in 2007 i believe. http://motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0505_fordshelby/

[Sauron]

You can now...

According to Consumer Reports reliablity statistics:


Mercedes-Benz is poor across the board. The M-class is famous for its build problems.
VW is mediocre on several of their cars. There is evidence that several of their engines have serious durability problems.
Audi is only now improving on the A4, but the A6 and A8 still get poor marks.
The BMW 3 series is still good, but the reliability of the 5 and 7 series has gone into the tank. The 7 is 190% worse than the industry average for luxury cars.


American cars (yes, including Ford) are now significantly more reliable than many German cars. Japanese cars, as always, are the most reliable, but Korean cars are getting up there too. My new job has a Hyundai Tuscon that I get to drive, and it is solid. The doors close with the same satisfying thunk as BMW doors do.

Yeah, but those problems that you mentioned in Mercedes are getting better. Most of them were electrical and Mercedes-Benz had a significant recall on many of their cars and I think the Silver Star is coming back to a head again.

Quite a few people I know have Mercedes Benz's and I don't think any of them are going back on them at all. As with Audi, well; the problem with most of todays new cars are the new technology that keeps coming out. Its not the old basic stuff of electric windows and so on. Now most of the stuff under the hood is run by computers and as usual with things built by imperfect beings, there are problems associated.

[Marke522]

Wow...you guys are more serious about your cars than your computersI think you may be on to something there. Via/nVidea doesn't really bother me for AMD processors. But I won't own or rent a Ford product.

I don't like Ford because they put strange parts on the cars requiring the owner to take in the car or purchase tools that will be used only one time. I did have to purchase a Torx set to take my hard top on my Wranlger, but the whole interior is made up of Torx bolts, and they are pretty coomon. Not like the strange tools needed to remove a stereo from a Ford.

[HAL9000]

My beef with them also stems to markup on their parts. I needed a front license plate bracket for my Mustang... plastic.. $60+ .. needed on for my Sunfire.. $6 and change... wanna explain to me how the Ford one is "better quality" to justify 10x the price?....needed a plastic trim piece for the Mustang.. about 8 inches long..2-2.5 inches high.. went from ahead of the front wheel to the trim on the bumper.. held on by two snap clips.. $90+ freeking dollars!!!... good thing my trim piece wasn't the one with the red tape in the middle.. that thing is $120+. Clutch cable.. nothing more than a cable with a ball crimped on one end, a clevis crimped on the other, the plastic tube that it rides in with a bolt clip about half way down... $175... damn.. I could get a remanufactured hydraulic cluch cylinder for my GM for less than that! Somebody snapped the antennae off my Mustang... $45.... ok.. don't ask, but I did this one.. bust the antennae off my Sunfire.. sent the thing flying 30 feet with a smack from my elbow... sheered the stud right off the car requiring the antennae AND the interal mount that bolts inside the trunk... TOTAL cost.. $18.

But ya know... I'll use the same theory that the Ford fans use... and remember, I'm not biased towards GM.. just hate Ford... my Sunfire.. no squeaks, no rattles, runs like a top, starts when it's -40 or lower without being plugged in.... so that makes ALL GM's a great product right?

So why do I hate Ford with such a passion??? Is it because ONE car let me down... no... it's because of the attitude behind that one car. Absolutely ridicoulous markups on their parts... even faster depreciation... flat rate service manuals that say you have to check the fuel pressure when it is KNOWN that the pump isn't even powering up... uh.. hello??? The pressure is ZERO..... and when your car burns to the ground.. a letter from the legal department stating that "Due to the heat of the engine compartment and the volitile fuels involved, these things are bound to happen" .... ummm... "bound to happen"???? That makes me feel safe and secure that "Quality is Job 1". If you're gonna brag that as your motto, be prepared to back it up.

[Marke522]

"Due to the heat of the engine compartment and the volitile fuels involved, ...I love how they say heat of the engine when the truck that belonged to your friend burned down and was not even running. How hot is a car that isn't running?

[HAL9000]

Wasn't a vehicle of a friend, was my own car. I drove to the university to pick up a paper, parked in front of the administration building, and when I came back less than 15 min later, this is what was left. (http://www.midnight-x.com/1128/mustang.jpg)

So the car was running to get there, operating at normal temps, the engine was sound, no oil leaks, no fuel leaks.. it was clean.. on a cooler day (about 15"F), the car was turned off when it happened.

[David M]

My mother had an 87 Mustang years ago. It caught fire on the freeway on it's own. Good thing Ford's have firewalls, they seem to need them.

[HAL9000]

That pic has been resized, but on the original, the lower part of the windshield is melted through and the fire had started to make it to the inside.

[lil Jimmie]

Being a mechanic I'm not too fond of any manufacture when it comes to repairing these things and Ford is not my favorite by a long shot. I've seen all sorts of vehicles go 400,000+ miles with nothing major but guess what they also had preventive maintenance, repairs when needed and not run into the ground.

My bosses wife had an 87 Caravan with a 2.2, head gasket at 50K then we rebuilt the engine at 125K, he sold it 3 years ago with the millage at 380K. The van is still running and has made countless trips to Miami from Roswell and from Roswell to Mexico City since it was sold. I still see the little old man who bought it drive by the shop. As far as I know the automatic transmission is still the original unit.

She now has an 2003 Windstar with low end noise at 65K and has had excellent care.

[Jaggannath]

That's crazy HAL... must have been a spectacle for any spectators
In Australia, the main battle is Ford vs Holden, with the majority being Holden fans. The UK equivalent of Holden is Vauxhall, btw. I personally don't give a fat rats freckle (so long as it doesn't spontaneously internally combust :D)

[Sauron]

That's crazy HAL... must have been a spectacle for any spectators
In Australia, the main battle is Ford vs Holden, with the majority being Holden fans. The UK equivalent of Holden is Vauxhall, btw. I personally don't give a fat rats freckle (so long as it doesn't spontaneously internally combust :D)

Worst thing is that the European Ford is almost entirely different from the American Ford...they even have different cars. Do the Aussies have their own Ford or is it imported?

[thefultonhow]

Do the Aussies have their own Ford or is it imported?

They have their own. The car I've heard the most about is the Falcon, which competes directly with the Holden Monaro (which over here is the new Pontiac GTO).

[Marke522]

this is what was left.You know, I've seen a Mustang like that before on an exit ramp on 435 and Metcalf years ago, like maybe 10. I thought maybe the guy messed up some aftermarket radio work. Used a small wire for the amp or something like that. I didn't know at the time that Ford had a known issue with their vehicles.

I DID know that Pontiac had problems with their Fiero's bursting into flames. But afterall, at that time they did claim to build excitment. ;)

[Turbo91Bird]

Hmmm, I would go with a new mustang just cause they look great and perform just as great. The interior isn't the best looking. Now if GM still made the Trans Am then I would say buy one of those in a convertiable since those not only performed incrediable, but looked great too. All black with chrome rims. :D

[Marke522]

Ooooooo, how about the car from Knight Rider? Did everyone want to have one of those when they grew up?

[HAL9000]

Hmmm, I would go with a new mustang just cause they look great and perform just as great.

Personally, I think they HAD the great look... when they first showed it, it had a lower roof line, better slope on the rear window, and all the cool scoops and junk of an old 69 Mach 1.... then they butchered it.

[David M]

Marke522 Ooooooo, how about the car from Knight Rider? Did everyone want to have one of those when they grew up?

The talking car? We have those now, built into the GPS. I wonder if they have a mother-in-law voice option?

[Floppyman]

Marke522 Ooooooo, how about the car from Knight Rider? Did everyone want to have one of those when they grew up?

The talking car? We have those now, built into the GPS. I wonder if they have a mother-in-law voice option?

You mean K.I.T.T. (Knight Industries Two Thousand)? Yes, I did watch Knight Rider growing up (I still think the Knight Rider theme is one of the better TV themes out there) and I still think I want a K.I.T.T. for myself. The Turbo Boost would come in handy sometimes.:)

[David M]

There was another talking car show in the 60's when I was a kid. It was called My Mother the Car. Really dopey show...but what did I know as a kid?

I really could see a car in the not too distant future with enough artificial intelligence to keep you out of accidents, keep you from getting lost, keep you from locking your keys inside and lock the car behind you if you forget. Also not run the engine if someone is trying to steal the car and to have a traveling companion you can talk to on your way to work.

The KITT concept is not so far away. Machines can understand the human voice pretty well now. Anyone use those automated 411 systems?...pretty freaky they can understand you and millions of others.

[Floppyman]

There was another talking car show in the 60's when I was a kid. It was called My Mother the Car. Really dopey show...but what did I know as a kid?

I really could see a car in the not too distant future with enough artificial intelligence to keep you out of accidents, keep you from getting lost, keep you from locking your keys inside and lock the car behind you if you forget. Also not run the engine if someone is trying to steal the car and to have a traveling companion you can talk to on your way to work.

The KITT concept is not so far away. Machines can understand the human voice pretty well now. Anyone use those automated 411 systems?...pretty freaky they can understand you and millions of others.

If we ever get to that point I hope they won't be running windows. The last thing I need is a bluescreeen when hitting a stop light.:) Thank goodness for manual intervention.....

[guruboy]

I would suggest a Subaru WRX STi. Not a convertable, but a sweet car just the same. One of the first car's I've ever animated :) turbocharged 300hp 6-speeds. 0-62 in 4.8 secs! Better than the mustang. Obviously being a Subaru it's all wheel drive, and it gets much better fuel economy than a lot of cars with 300 hp. This is one vroom vroom car. Gets pretty close to your $35k budget. I've heard the rear seats are a little small, but in reality they're not. (My brother owns one). Stick a giant rear spolier on one of these and you're set.

[mountainking]

I would suggest a Subaru WRX STi. Not a convertable, but a sweet car just the same. One of the first car's I've ever animated :) turbocharged 300hp 6-speeds. 0-62 in 4.8 secs! Better than the mustang. Obviously being a Subaru it's all wheel drive, and it gets much better fuel economy than a lot of cars with 300 hp. This is one vroom vroom car. Gets pretty close to your $35k budget. I've heard the rear seats are a little small, but in reality they're not. (My brother owns one). Stick a giant rear spolier on one of these and you're set. the new 2005 MR evoloution is cheaper and does a 4.4 second 0-60

[thefultonhow]

I really could see a car in the not too distant future with enough artificial intelligence to keep you out of accidents, keep you from getting lost, keep you from locking your keys inside and lock the car behind you if you forget. Also not run the engine if someone is trying to steal the car and to have a traveling companion you can talk to on your way to work.

Your BMW could very well have all those things. Stability control (DSC on BMWs) keeps you out of accidents by curtailing skids of all types; if you get the nav system, you'll have a much harder time getting lost; and my friend who has the 325i demonstrated to what lengths the car keeps you from locking your keys in. I'm not sure if the 3-sereis does this, but many luxury cars will lock and unlock the doors depending on your proximity; the alarm system includes an engine immobilizer, as most now do. Now, a traveling companion may be different, but if you get the iPod integration, it'll be close enough for me. ;)

[cowsgomoo]

I would buy a 1988 buick century because they are so fancy and fast.

[guruboy]

The MR is $2000 more silly man. and the Subaru's engine is 25% bigger. Don't get me wrong I have nothing against the new MR, it's a fantastic car. I'm just partial to my Subarus!

[Sauron]

Personally if I had the money, I'd get a Pagoni Zonda.