New guy on the forums needs help [Archive]

BiG_Weasel

07-16-2005, 09:34 PM

Hey, all. Glad I found this site. Anyway, here's my problem.

I have this PC I built myself:

AMD Athlon XP 3200
1 GB PC3200 DDR
2 HDs
GeForce FX 5700
SB Live! Sound Card
Belkin 802.11g wireless card
DVD drive
CD-RW drive

I have a case with 2 front fans for intake, 2 rear fans for exhaust, and one side fan for intake in addition to the heat sink/fan combo on my CPU. Now, I thought this would be plenty of air flow, but when I'm gaming for an extended period of time, my game (depending on which game it is, not all will crash) will crash. If I take the cover off the case and give it a minute to cool, it'll run just fine. What can/should I do to keep the case cooler w/o having to remove the door? Thanks!

Panama Red

07-16-2005, 09:41 PM

What size are the fans? Can you add a blow hole exhaust fan in the top of the case?

DonVito

07-16-2005, 09:41 PM

Im not an expert on case airflow or anything but, id set the side fan for exaust so it will pull air away from cpu and expansion slots.

Panama Red

07-16-2005, 10:00 PM

Im not an expert on case airflow or anything but, id set the side fan for exaust so it will pull air away from cpu and expansion slots.

Actually, that will create a turbulence with the cpu fan. The cpu fan is blowing DOWN on the mobo. If you try to draw the same air out of the case, you'll have a dead spot and chances are it will get hotter.

catacon

07-16-2005, 10:21 PM

Really? Interesting. I would go with PR's idea for the top blowhole. I am working on that myself.

allburnintegrated

07-16-2005, 11:32 PM

What temperature is it getting to?
When I had a stock cooler on my 3000+ (when not overclocked), it got to about 55°C under load which never caused me any instability. I only had 1 intake fan, 1 exhaust fan and the PSU fans.
If you've only just built the computer, ensure the HSF is seated properly and you have the right amount of thermal paste/have a thermal pad.
Can your PSU supply enough power? What type of PSU do you have?

As soon as I got an aftermarket cooler, my temps dropped to about 30°C, massive difference. If adding a top exhaust doesn't help, you might have to get an aftermarket HSF.

juppy

07-16-2005, 11:59 PM

Before you go cutting a blowhole, have you checked to make sure all your cables are out of the way? If you have alot of cables hanging down in the air path from the front to the back, it'll block the air from moving as good as it could. If they are hanging down in the way, try to tie them up with plastic zip ties to some other part of the insides that it won't hurt (like the case frame, optical drives housing, etc....basically something that isn't moving). And yeah, the side fan should be blowing the air in to the cpu, unless your heatsink fan is one of the few weird ones that pull air up from the cpu....those aren't real common though, most blow down to the processor.

Cricket

07-17-2005, 01:12 AM

Maybe the video card is overheating. If you have room, try installing a slot fan below the video card. It'll remove the heat from around the video card and blow it out the back.

:) Cricket

BiG_Weasel

07-17-2005, 08:36 AM

Thanks for the info.

I did jury-rig an 80mm fan pointed straight at the vid card, mounted on the rear wall of the case, and that didn't help. As far as cables go, I use the rounded IDE cables, and I went and moved them all so as not to block airflow.

According to my mobo's onboard CPU thermometer, my CPU runs about 120-125 F most of the time. However, when I start getting problems I see it shoot up to about 130F. I plan on taking the heat sink off today and adding more thermal paste to it. I also have a spare compatible heat sink that I'm going to try should that not help.

Cricket

07-17-2005, 10:27 AM

I plan on taking the heat sink off today and adding more thermal paste to it.No, don't do that. Adding more thermal compound will make things worse. The CPU and heatsink surfaces must make contact with each other for thermal transfer to occur. If you add more thermal compound you increase the distance between the two mating surfaces and your temps will go up. Try cleaning off the old compound and then just add a very light smear on both surfaces.I also have a spare compatible heat sink that I'm going to try should that not help.Is it aluminum or copper...or a combination of both?

Do you have a high RPM, high volume fan that would fit on the heatsink? Maybe you can replace the current fan with a more powerful one. It'll be more noisy though.

:) Cricket

RazorDX

07-17-2005, 10:46 AM

Is the fan on your case positioned right above the CPU? If so, you can get a cheap cowl that will shoot the air directly from the CPU to the outside of the case.

BiG_Weasel

07-17-2005, 02:12 PM

A cowl might be good. Can you link me to where I can order one?

Also, I'm currently uninstalling/reinstalling the game that was crashing the most to see if, in fact, it was the game itself.

juppy

07-17-2005, 10:49 PM

Is the fan on your case positioned right above the CPU? If so, you can get a cheap cowl that will shoot the air directly from the CPU to the outside of the case.Again, most cpu fans blow air down onto the cpu, so the cowl would allow fresh air to be sucked in directly to the cpu, not blown out of the case (unless the heatsink fan is one of the very few that actually blow air up away from the cpu).

RazorDX

07-18-2005, 01:49 PM

I've yet to see one that blows down (on an Athlon XP stock cooling unit, at least), but really all you'd have to do to change that would be to flip the fan. All it takes is a screwdriver.

Edit: Here's a link to one on newegg for 3.99. There is also a green one on there (this one is blue).
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811998131

If you know the size of your CPU cooling fan it would help.. I'm guessing 60mm? That one is for an 80mm.

neochivers

07-24-2005, 07:31 AM

Water cool it its simple

Mac Medic

07-24-2005, 08:04 AM

Just a little curious, and I don't mean to change the subject. Isn't the ideal situation to create a positive air pressure inside the case? Won't adding more exhaust fans to the case create a negative air pressure situation? (and make it a dust magnet). Thats just my thought.

Jaggannath

07-25-2005, 08:56 AM

Positive pressure is definitely a good thing for keeping the dust out if that's your approach, but it isn't necessarily a good heat solution as I'd imagine it'd mean the air is a little more stagnant perhaps... if someone could clear this up that'd be good.

Cricket

07-25-2005, 09:54 AM

Dust will get into the case whether you have positive or negative pressure. I prefer negative pressure rather than positive because I think it creates less turbulence in the case and you get smoother air flow and possibly less dead spots.

:) Cricket

RazorDX

07-26-2005, 07:09 PM

What you essentially want is clean high air flow. You can have a 4000 PSI fire hose, but it won't do any good if there's a concrete wall between you and the fire.

MaxRat

07-27-2005, 12:19 AM

There is great debate on wether what is right and what is wrong....

I'd say just try different things to see what works best for you.... I only have 2 case fans...And they are in the window side on the bottom as intakes.... One is under the vid card and one is under the H/D....or i should say Aimed under... they are 92mm standard fans...I think 38cfm...

In all my builds I use that as standard and I use the power supply as the exhaust... I DO NOT agree with a blow hole in the top of the case... If there is a hole there I don't put a fan in it...!

Usually if you have a blow hole it's just ahead of the power supply and fan and if you make it a exhaust and the power supply is trying to exhaust you create a void (dead spot) atleast where I live you do....

How I test case flow is like this....smoke power... also a $ 9.00 home digital inside/outside thermometer ( any home supply store) put the probe inside the case and check temps....

My cases temps never go above 2 degrees F. over ambient room temps...

But, what works for me may not work for you....! you will have to experiment with fan placement/direction....

RazorDX

07-31-2005, 07:29 PM

I am currently pondering the use of a shop-vac's hose hooked up to an air conditioner, then having the case sealed off with silicone (to an extent). If the hose is connecting the air contitioner to one intake fan on the lower front, and the only other fans are the exhaust for the power supply, it would be a sweet rig (I think?). I have a spare, cheap air conditioner that I use in my room and I though it would be awesome. 70 degree F room temperature with 40 degree F ambiant case temp... now that would be nice.

Jaggannath

07-31-2005, 11:19 PM

I'm not sure that's a viable option Razor, as you have to worry about the moisture in the air, which is how an air conditioner works

RazorDX

08-01-2005, 12:27 AM

Actually, air conditioners remove moisture from the air. It will be nothing but dry air. That is why you often may need a humidifier in the summer, along with your air conditioner, and a dehumidifier in the winter when you have your furnace running. It should (theoretically) work like a charm.

BIG jay

08-01-2005, 05:46 AM

why not just pit your pc in a small fridge

RazorDX

08-02-2005, 11:26 PM

Because then where would I put the 6 packs of.... soda.

Man... Chris Farley kicked ass...

Karnevil9

08-03-2005, 12:40 AM

I wouldn't try the A/C idea. Even though they remove moisture from the air they do not necessarily remove all the moisture. When you have a cool temp running over heated parts you face the possibility of condensation. Not good for a PC or any other electrical appliance.

Your CPU is running at 130 F, about 55 C well within limits of most CPU's.

You may want to see if the temperature monitor is accurate. Try and see what the temp of the graphics card is when operating. Then see what the inside of the case is. From what you said, I am not sure you have a CPU overheating problem.

Have you checked your bios to see if it has an emergency Temp shut off for the CPU? It may be set too low.

David M

08-03-2005, 10:54 PM

Karnevil9 "I wouldn't try the A/C idea. Even though they remove moisture from the air they do not necessarily remove all the moisture. When you have a cool temp running over heated parts you face the possibility of condensation. Not good for a PC or any other electrical appliance."

No, when you have warm air blowing over cool parts you have the chance for condensation. Warm air carries more moisture than cold air. When a parcel of air cools and hits its dewpoint, this is when you get condensation..

MaxRat

08-03-2005, 11:39 PM

Hey I would try it....

I usually have the AC in my room set to 70deg F. and my case temps are within 2 deg....

I have set the AC on 65deg F and all the pc temps drop...

So I say give it a whirl and post back with your findings...

Karnevil9

08-03-2005, 11:59 PM

(No, when you have warm air blowing over cool parts you have the chance for condensation. Warm air carries more moisture than cold air. When a parcel of air cools and hits its dewpoint, this is when you get condensation..)

So if he runs the A/C through his computer and the air surrounding the computer is warmer than the air inside the computer, can condensation form on the Case? If it forms on the case, does it stand a chance of getting inside another component, CD, DVD, drip through a fan hole? Even if this chance is remote, is it worth messing up the machine you built, when thus far a heating problem as not been proven.

If it was my machine I wouldn't consider this approach.

Edit. Not to beat a dead horse but this is interesting.

That's the basics of evaporation and condensation. You can see that condensation has nothing to do with cooler air "holding" less water vapor than warmer air.

You often hear that condensation begins as the air cools because "cold air can hold less water than warm air." This isn't true. The air does not hold water in the way a sponge holds water - some teachers have been known to use this analogy. Air does not "hold" water the way liquid water holds salt. Scientists have known this since the 19th century, which means anyone book or teacher who tries to tell you that "warm air can hold more water vapor than cold air" is not only wrong, but is also way, way behind the times.

BIG jay

08-04-2005, 07:02 AM

if he does do this i think he shold post some pics of his pc melted into one big lump of metal and plastic

MaxRat

08-04-2005, 08:24 AM

I don't know if condensation would be that big of a problem....

To get condensation to form on the case Relative Humidity would have to around the same as Dew Point ....

In his case it would have to be around 80-90 percent on the outside with low to minimal on the inside....
And I think with "Dehumidified" air inside he would stand even less of a chance...

I would have to say he would stand more of a chance getting condensation by "water cooling" because there is already water involved than there would be by "Air Conditioned" cooling...

Lets look at it this way... for example...

I have the AC on in my house (now) and I keep it 72deg F...Relative humidity in here is right now 25-30%

If I go downstairs (basement) I have copper water pipes that run everywhere . Right at the moment the "cold" water pipes have No condensation on them...But when the Humidity goes up to around 60-80% then I start to get condensation on the pipes... so....

I guess my point would be check the humidity of the surrounding room...if it's below 50% I would say you're goin to be safe...

I would have no problem trying this...But I do not want a hose running across my room to my PC....

Personally I would turn the AC on high and let it "chill" the whole room....

Also those little packets that come in shoes and other things to collect moisture....I'd put a few of those in the pc just to be safe...

Besides...condensation would only be a problem on initial start-up....if the AC and the PC ran all the time....they'd both be the same temp...

David M

08-04-2005, 05:22 PM

Karne,
Warmer air is indeed capable of holding more water than cooler air. I'm not interested in arguing the point. You can find the answer in any physics book or meteorology book. Please don't tell people this is not true. Ask any meteorologist or physicist. We try to keep these threads accurate.

To say that running cold air over warmer equipment could form condensation is false. Running cold air over colder equipment could cause condensation... would be an accurate statement.

Here is my proof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_humidity

Karnevil9

08-04-2005, 05:48 PM

Daivd,

I concede your pointt that I was mistaken when I said that cool air over hot parts would cause condensation. Science class was many years ago for me. Sorry for the error. However the point of my last post was, using the now corrected info. the problem still exists, just in a different location. if the inside of the case is cooled too much and the air surrounding the case is warmer than inside the case, and all the needed dewpoint and relative humidy comes into play, he may run into this problem. Maybe not highly likely, but a possibility. It may in fact work wonderfully, but it has a potential concern, and he should, at least, be aware of that.

The second part I didn't make up. I came across that when I was researching this point. I provided it because I thought it would be interesting since it changed what was most of us were indeed taught. Here is the link so you can read it for yourself. By the way, it doesn't dispute your original argument. it just says that folks arrive at the the right conclusion for the wrong reason.

http://www.ems.psu.edu/%7Efraser/Bad/BadClouds.html