What are we comming to?

[FLG]

Does it seriously matter what there called?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-12-01-trimming-debate_x.htm

I dont want this to start a religious/politcal debate, but really how far do they have to go with political correctness?

[catacon]

Yeah, I think that is stupid. People are WAY too sensitive these days.

[HAL9000]

From now on.. I want to be known as a carbon based unit.

[Jaggannath]

Same furore has erupted in Australia...

I'd like to point out the fact that both the USA and Australia are Christian nations... this isn't any form of discrimination, it's a fact. Therefore, you cannot claim to be attempting to separate church and state when the nation is fundamentally one religious group. If you don't like this, move to another country where they don't have Christmas trees. I absolutely hate do-gooders like this, who decide there's persecution or disenfranchisement where the 'disenfranchised' haven't noticed or don't care, they should stick their noses out and stop being total losers

[Cricket]

America is a nation of spoiled brat whiners.

:) Crickets

[sgtspector]

America is a nation of spoiled brat whiners.

:) Crickets
Would you mind clarifying that please?

[doctorgonzo]

Frankly, I don't like displays on public property. In my apartment, which is my own space, it's going to be a Christmas tree.

[Colonel Sanders]

I'll admit to being a Chirstmas loving Christian, however I find no offence when I see a Menorah (which I haven't seen in a long time).

The USA is primarily Christian, and Christians like to celebrate holidays. Should the majority of the US population adjust because there are some people who have a different religion?

I remember when the words "under god" were removed from the pledge of allegiance- a small minority affected a large portion of the population of the USA. I'm willing to bet if I went to the home country of that individual, I would not be able to change their religious veiws as they did. I believe in most problems that you will ever face, "majority rules" will often provide the best solution.

L J

[doctorgonzo]

I remember when the words "under god" were removed from the pledge of allegiance- a small minority affected a large portion of the population of the USA. I'm willing to bet if I went to the home country of that individual, I would not be able to change their religious veiws as they did. I believe in most problems that you will ever face, "majority rules" will often provide the best solution.

I'm not trying to change anybody's religious views. I just don't think it is appropriate for there to be any government-funded religious displays of any kind. In order to be fair, every religion would have to be represented. I would want the appropriate display for the Church of the FSM, for example. It would be pretty difficult to accomodate everybody, so we should keep displays on private property, which is exactly where my Christmas tree is going to be.

"Majority rules" needs to be countered by protections for the minority, because we are all members of a minority in some circumstances. If a majority of people in your neighborhood voted to occupy your house and kick you out, would that be fair?

[HAL9000]

OK... I see DocG's point here... "Government Funded" displays.... Seems to be a big waste of tax dollars more than anything... I wouldn't have any problem with a public display should it be privately funded though.

[Darth Revan]

"Government Funded" displays.... Seems to be a big waste of tax dollars more than anything...

I agree that there is a better usage for the $, especially with what's going on now-a-days. Well someone pointed out that US was founded on Christian beliefs, or somthing along those lines. So the government can put up "Christian" display if they choose to. And unless I am wrong (which happens quite often) the U.S. is a place for "religous freedom". But it's primarily christian. So it would make sense that most Christmas time decorations would be oriented towards those beliefs. But I personally don't care if they have a menorah or an angel on a tree. I'm set with what I belive.
But I agree there are some messed up people in america. Long live freedom of speech. Heh

Merry Christmahanakwanza ---------- Cool word isn't it haha

[786ARS]

Everyone has a right to worship their own religion, but no-one has the right to disallow or insult somone elses. But you should respect someon elses views and beliefs. And if someone calls a christmas tree a christmas tree, let them, you have no right to stop them calling it that.

[Redfallon]

This article and trend isn't anyway connected to "P.C."

[fudtone]

Being a good old general thread I believe we should be able to discuse this save we don't offend.

What a waste of brain power to even have to discuse this... I say call it what you like. Its a tree!

[JJD2207]

It is also a matter of tradition. This has been going on for many years and is sort of a standard thing. Since I've moved to the Desert I've noticed that it doesn't really feel like the holiday season than it did when there was snow and caroling and Christmas trees. Now the only thing that can really bring the holiday spirit is a Christmas tree I see out here from time to time. Its sort of a recognition. But I also see displays of other religious holidays out as well, they are just not as common. I just don't see why things need to be changed, and I really don't mean to offend anyone at all, but what would the founding fathers say about this if they were still around?

[yeoamuca]

the problem with this is that christmas is a holiday that is celebrated by christians
the reason that it started is the birth of christ
i asked my jewish roomate what he thought of this (he celebrates christmas for the presents) and he had the same reaction i do
its really dumb
jewish people have hanukah
and if you go by the same thing as calling a christmas tree a holiday tree the only way that i see to be fair is to call the menorah a holiday candlestick
i dont want to offend anyone im not like a pissed off christian or anything
im more of a person who is pissed off by the stupid stuff that people argue about now
i think political correctness is a sign of weakness
we arent allowed to offend anyone anymore
and if we have a freedom of speech but can say anything to offend anyone isnt that a restriction of that right
im sorry im kinda getting worked up but i just get annoyed when i see stuff like this

[doctorgonzo]

and if we have a freedom of speech but can say anything to offend anyone isnt that a restriction of that right
im sorry im kinda getting worked up but i just get annoyed when i see stuff like this

I don't think that anywhere somebody has been prosecuted by the government for offending somebody by saying "Merry Christmas". You have the right to call it a Christmas Tree. I have the right to call it a Purple Rutabaga.

The only real issue here, IMO, is whether the government should be funding religious displays of any kind. I personally think they should not. If somebody wants to put up the biggest Christmas tree in the world on their lawn and get a group of 300 people around it calling it a "Christmas Tree" then what do I care?

Nobody is being arrested for saying "Christmas Tree" instead of "Holiday Tree." So I don't see an issue here.

[yeoamuca]

i really dont think that a christmas tree is a religious display
if you ask most christians what a symbol of christmas is i doubt they would say christmas tree especially now that christmas has become more of a commercial holiday than a religious holiday
a christmas tree is more of a symbol of celebrating a season of giving than of christs birth
especially since alot people who arent even christians celebrate at christmas
so i dont think that it would be funding a religous symbol

[Nuclear Krusader]

Christmas is a Christian holiday. [To those political correct people:] if you have a problem with that, well, that's too bad. I ain't gonna stop saying "merry xmas" or calling the adorned pines xmas trees. If you still have a problem with that: fac et vivas! (Get a life!).

[lil Jimmie]

I don't see that "government funded" displays are appropriate but I do feel that outside of that the moment to do away the usage of Christmas in general is a bit too much. If you want religious freedom you have to allow it.
I'm not a religious person but I respect those that are and I only expect the same in return.

[Jaggannath]

I think just celebrate Wintereenmas instead

[Cricket]

Christmas...bah, humbug!

:) Cricket

[David M]

It is not the non-christian religous groups whining about Christmas displays. It is the anti-religious types that are doing the whining. I don't understand why they like to pick on Christianity in particular either. I don't follow any religion in particular but I have never been offended by any religious display. If people want to celebrate their religion then I have no problem with it. I see no problem with placing a religious display on public property as long as no religious group in particular is discriminated against. Government is not promoting a particular religion when it allows religious displays on public land. Government is simply allowing religious individuals to celebrate their religion on public land. There is no problem there. Those who are offended by religion need to get a life.

Religion is part of the human existance and to pretend it does not exist is silly.

Christians have Christmas trees, Jews have menorahs and Muslims have Ramadan. It's simply stupid to call something what it is not.

[glc]

And it seems to me there are religions that burn people at the stake - how would you care to see this on public land? If you are going to restrict one kind of display, you unfortunately have to restrict all.

[FLG]

Some good points,

Honestly i think people should stop wasting time on frivolous matters; like what to call a Christmas Tree, and do more important things.

As most of you know there was a similar thing awhile back with calling HDD's "Master" and Slave"

[bigandy]

It is not the non-christian religous groups whining about Christmas displays. It is the anti-religious types that are doing the whining. I don't understand why they like to pick on Christianity in particular either. I don't follow any religion in particular but I have never been offended by any religious display. If people want to celebrate their religion then I have no problem with it. I see no problem with placing a religious display on public property as long as no religious group in particular is discriminated against. Government is not promoting a particular religion when it allows religious displays on public land. Government is simply allowing religious individuals to celebrate their religion on public land. There is no problem there. Those who are offended by religion need to get a life.

Religion is part of the human existance and to pretend it does not exist is silly.

Christians have Christmas trees, Jews have menorahs and Muslims have Ramadan. It's simply stupid to call something what it is not.

The truth is that we're a de facto Christian society. So Christianity in particular is targeted is because it is on public display in a country which is supposed to have seperation of church and state. It is not very common to see an ovesized menorah with gigantic candles on display in a town square, yet there are Christmas trees in those public spaces all over the country. We have Easter and Christmas parades. Why not a Passover parade? We get all the Christian holidays off from school/work, but none from any other religion. It won't happen except for very communities where there are very concentrated populations of these "minority" religions. Right or wrong, that's just the way it is.

That said, I do agree with you that it is absurd to not call something by its name. Calling an inanimate object by its assigned name doesn't force you to believe in what it stands for.

[Smidget]

What are they trying to demote the term Christmas?

Christmas = presents, Wal-Mart, savings, trampling over each other for laptops, punching for USB keys, Santa i want this, Santa I want that..., office parties, drinking, over-indulgence and believing in mystical figures who park beside your chimney


How dare the athiests bring something so holy into question!!!!!!!!!!
America means religous freedom, even though the actual scientists were atheist, but that freedom belongs to Christians!.

:rollseyes:

[weremonkey]

What are they trying to demote the term Christmas?

Christmas = presents, Wal-Mart, savings, trampling over each other for laptops, punching for USB keys, Santa i want this, Santa I want that..., office parties, drinking, over-indulgence and believing in mystical figures who park beside your chimney


How dare the athiests bring something so holy into question!!!!!!!!!!
America means religous freedom, even though the actual scientists were atheist, but that freedom belongs to Christians!.

:rollseyes:


You forgot to say that presents= $

[Force Flow]

Hmm...one thing to consider is that trees are all over the place. Just throw some lights on it and it become a christmas tree. Not quite the same with a menorah. They are either hand-made or manufactured, and I've never seen one big enough to dwarf a small coffee table.

[jimmyrules712]

I'm not trying to change anybody's religious views. I just don't think it is appropriate for there to be any government-funded religious displays of any kind. In order to be fair, every religion would have to be represented. I would want the appropriate display for the Church of the FSM, for example. It would be pretty difficult to accomodate everybody, so we should keep displays on private property, which is exactly where my Christmas tree is going to be.

"Majority rules" needs to be countered by protections for the minority, because we are all members of a minority in some circumstances. If a majority of people in your neighborhood voted to occupy your house and kick you out, would that be fair?

no, but if the majority of people wanted to put up a harmless display, and i was not in that majority, id say let the people do what they want

[David M]

And it seems to me there are religions that burn people at the stake - how would you care to see this on public land? If you are going to restrict one kind of display, you unfortunately have to restrict all.
Burning people at the stake is also illegal. I did not think that I would need to qualify my statement about religious activities in this way.

BTW, religious people pay taxes just as well as non-religious people. This is one more reason why they should be allowed to put religious displays on public land.

I am waiting for the day that the anti-religious activists want to remove crucifixes and star of David headstones from the graves of war heroes at war cemetaries because it is a "religious symbol on public land". This will happen over my dead body.

[delta013]

This will happen over my dead body.


And mine.

If they are going to start doing things like that then maybe there should be a law to prevent non-religious people from using phrases like “Oh my God”, “Jesus Christ” and “God ****it” in a cursing or offensive way, because they are defiling a religion.

I would also like to thank you David for pointing out that it's the anti-religious people that are trying to oppress Christians, not people from other religions.

Recently in my area the Islamic community approached the school board about adding their holidays to the school calendar. The school board decided that would be too many holidays and instead removed Jewish and Christian holidays from the calendar. This caused a lot of controversy and the school board reversed its decision. The Islamic community also withdrew its request because this was not the way they wanted it to be. Which I think was very nice of them, not to get all pissed off and file a lawsuit like some groups might do. Had it been anti-religious people and not the Islamic community, there would probably still be a legal battle going on.

As to the specific issue of Christmas decorations on government run property, I have mixed feelings. Because although I don’t mind major religions putting up displays. I would not want to see cult or satanic displays anywhere, especially on government land. So if I had to choose between “everything” and “nothing”, I would choose nothing.

Also a Christmas tree is not a religious symbol. Nowhere in the bible does it say “You shall erect a tree in my name once a year and decorate it with electric lights made in China”. The Christmas tree is actually a pagan tradition, which both Christians and non-Christians have adapted to their own.

Like someone said earlier political correctness is a weakness. It means someone will not say what they believe because they are too afraid of what others (usually a small group) will think.

Separation of Church and State was designed to keep the government from controlling a church like the kings of England controlled the English Church. It was not intended to keep Christmas trees, crosses or menorahs off government property.

This country was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs, our laws are based on Judeo-Christian beliefs, and just because we allow people to worship anyway they want does not mean the government and laws should accommodate them all. If that’s a problem for someone then they are welcome to go find a better country to live in. Good luck.

Delta013

[weremonkey]

Also a Christmas tree is not a religious symbol. Nowhere in the bible does it say “You shall erect a tree in my name once a year and decorate it with electric lights made in China”. The Christmas tree is actually a pagan tradition, which both Christians and non-Christians have adapted to their own.
Delta013

LOL! Funniest thing I have seen all day