Another Win on Mac thread [Archive]

Statica

04-05-2006, 11:29 AM

A s/w mfger that actually listened to people (well that's the PR message anyway) .. but I'm impressed .. not only does it make it seamless they also have Win drivers?

And an edit, in case anyone hasn't followed the other truly mind-boggling news earlier this week: Microsoft's virtualisation support for Linux (http://news.com.com/Microsoft+hastens+virtualization+support/2100-7344_3-6057826.html)?

Why are they all playing so nice?

thefultonhow

04-05-2006, 12:15 PM

That's sweet... now if only I could afford a MacBook Pro in addition to my ThinkPad.

HAL9000

04-05-2006, 12:18 PM

I didn't think they would freak about it being done... nor did I think they would support it, no surprize there... what I am shocked about is that they are providing drivers.

Alaron

04-05-2006, 01:28 PM

This is a very interesting move on Apple's part. I think it is a smart one though. If they can get people to buy a MacbookPro or an Imac, that's half the battle won right there. And if those people are setting up Bootcamp, they will inevitably spend time with OS X. Carry it out a bit more and people migrate to Mac entirely, or at least continue to purchase the hardware.

HAL9000

04-05-2006, 01:30 PM

If purchasing new hardware, I would consider a Mac now just to play with OS X and be able to go back to my tried and true.

Stuey

04-05-2006, 01:55 PM

This is going to make people a LOT more inclined to buy a mac. I'll wait until the second generation of Intel Macs, and then I'll probably go for a mini. For a couple of hundred bucks (~$600-$700??), the risk is *relatively* minimized, and in my opinion, well worth it.

If only their hardware wasn't so costly.

Mac Medic

04-05-2006, 05:15 PM

Personally I don't think this move will encourage anyone (consumer) to buy or switch to the Mac. I think this was prompted because of the story of the guy who started the XP on Apple reward contest. He had convinced his boss that the macbook pro would boot XP so the company bought him one. I think Apple saw this and realized there was potential for more corporate sales if installation and booting of windows was easy to do. I really don't think Apple did this to appease the very small minority of consumer Mac users that want to run windows.

Statica

04-05-2006, 06:05 PM

Personally I don't think this move will encourage anyone (consumer) to buy or switch to the Mac.
I dont know why you'd say that .. Hal just say he'd be more inclined .. and personally for me, I'd love the esthetics of a Apple machine and the partial use of OSX if I know I can actually get some work done on a Windows platform .. I'm highly inclined to get it. I can vouch for a number of other people who have said to me that the Apple is a cool platform but can it do as much as the PC platform?

That's probably the reason why Apple sales have been so historically weak .. they have a "we're a niche and we dont need the rest of you" attitude, this is probably the first move I've seen them make to try and woo the mainstream, that makes me believe that they're serious about establishing themselves more .. rather than going bankrupt every decade and a half or so.

Mac Medic

04-05-2006, 07:51 PM

I dont think I would call the guys that come here mainstream users. They are generally more technically inclined than the average consumer PC user and so would naturally be interested in trying to boot XP on a mac, but for the majority of users who just want a computer to work they really don't care about dual booting, especially on $2000 hardware. Those that do want to use a mac do so for OS X, if they just wanted windows there is much cheaper hardware available to them. Sure, some enthusiasts may buy a mac to try it out knowing they can run windows (all be it in a limited fashion, no bluetooth, no 802.11 etc..) but for the rest of the Dell crowd this move won't change a thing.

edit: Apparently bluetooth and 802.11 do work but Apple say a USB KB/Mouse are required as the bluetooth versions do not work?!?! Weird.

Mac Medic

04-05-2006, 08:56 PM

Just came across this. It says it better than I ever could.

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1946545,00.asp

Alaron

04-05-2006, 09:36 PM

I really don't think Apple did this to appease the very small minority of consumer Mac users that want to run windows.

That right there is backwards. We aren't talking about Mac users who want to run Windows. We are talking about Windows users who want to run Mac.

I agree that the majority of computer users out there do not care about Bootcamp. They will stick with whatever platform they are used to.

However, I think a lot of people here at PCM, including myself, are interested in Mac OS. But since we can't buy the OS by itself, having a dual boot option on a new machine is appealing.

I agree with Statica that the combination of a familiar OS like Windows with the aesthetics of a Mac, is a compelling reason to at least consider Mac if we were buying a new machine.

Statica

04-05-2006, 09:44 PM

For every analyst that says that it has limited appeal, there are sources (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/05/AR2006040501946.html) that say that this will have tremendous potential! Heck the people pushing AAPL (http://www.google.com/finance?q=AAPL) higher today are banking on this (stocks jumped 9% after bootcamp's release).

Source: http://www.schaeffersresearch.com/commentary/observations.aspx?click=home&ID=15724
Apple Computer (AAPL: View sentiment for AAPLsentiment, chart, options) is near the top of the charts after unveiling Boot Camp, a software program that allows the Mac computers run by Intel (INTC: View sentiment for INTCsentiment, chart, options) processors to utilize Microsoft's (MSFT: View sentiment for MSFTsentiment, chart, options) Windows XP operating system. This change provides AAPL with potential access to a broader market on both the consumer and corporate side. The stock has rallied more than eight percent as a result, reversing much of the past week's declines. Both MSFT and INTC are fractionally higher. Boot Camp is currently available for download as a public beta version that will be licensed for use on a trial basis for a limited time.
Imagine that this could be called as Mac's gaming solution (http://xbox.joystiq.com/2006/04/05/apples-official-mac-gaming-solution-windows/)

rspassey

04-05-2006, 10:28 PM

Sounds like a good venture on Apple's part. I would consider it myself, but probably will stick to Windows only (and Linux). I remember from some benchmarks (maybe posted by Statica) that actually showed that XP on an Intel Mac scored higher than similar things in OS X - so Apple perhaps is migrating more toward hardware sales only, then will promote OS X, but also offer ways to support Windows Users.

IntegraGSR

04-05-2006, 10:53 PM

In a matter of time you will be able to run any OS you want on the Mac. You definitely can't buy that anywhere else. I think it's a good move if people will buy Apple's products, which is what I hope.

mairving

04-05-2006, 11:03 PM

IntegraGSR

04-05-2006, 11:09 PM

It already runs Darwin natively, I'm sure it can run FreeBSD with a few tweaks.

What does MAC stand for? :cool: I just know Mac :D

Statica

04-05-2006, 11:16 PM

I remember from some benchmarks (maybe posted by Statica) that actually showed that XP on an Intel Mac scored higher than similar things in OS X

I think it was the other way round, the link had a comparison test of OSX running on a similarly spec-ed Dell. The benchmark was poor because the packages were not optimized for Intel; I think the numbers are very favorable towards the Intel versions now .. altho I dont recall any links that compare it the way you speak of... I could be wrong.

I think you're missing the point of simply running XP on Mac, that isn't really what makes it such a good opportunity for me at least. It's the whole "it just works" feeling with OSX, the feeling of not having to fiddle around with BT drivers everytime I plug in my Microsoft supplied drivers for BT for a Microsoft supplied BT dongle and a Microsoft mouse. I'll be the first to admit, that as a platform the Mac is one that makes me think .. hmm what else can I do with it? What the OSX does great is as a daily use machine, the inherent esthetics and the security features of OSX is what appeals to me for a generic surf, or even the visual appeal of the screensaver/photoslide show that just does it so unbelievably .. sorry I'll wipe the drool off my face... but you gotta use it to actually understand how easy it makes it seem.

David M

04-06-2006, 12:38 AM

Great idea. I have scientists who bring Macs onboard and other scientists who bring PC laptops onboard. Contrary to what I read, they quite often cannot share data or swap software. There is always that dreaded, "I will have to send you that data after I get back to the office."

I can see this problem going away real fast now with dual OS machines. Plus, being able to run XP on a Mac means that scientists will be able to use their Mac and run software which is used to run the various sampling instruments (which is almost always written for PC's most commonly by Seabird and RDI) on their Mac's

I had that problem today in fact...one of the scientists brought his Mac onboard to run his CODAR (shows current velocity and direction using the doppler shift from a low frequency radar antenna) software and he could not load and run the software which shows the internet signal strength and which shoreside station we were receiving from. We were running around like idiots trying to get a stronger signal so we could fine tune the codar station from the water via the internet and not have to send someone ashore...which was a big waste of valuable boat time.

Some of this ocean instrument software is so old that it is written in DOS and requires a serial port to communicate with the instrument! I would say about half the scientists that come onboard use Macs. It will be a real relief for them when they can run all scientific software on their computers.

mairving

04-06-2006, 07:49 AM

It already runs Darwin natively, I'm sure it can run FreeBSD with a few tweaks.

What does MAC stand for? :cool: I just know Mac :D
That was a joke by the way. An adapted FreeBSD is what the MAC is built on.

Mac Medic

04-06-2006, 10:11 AM

I guess I'm just in the minority here, I don't see the appeal of buying a $2000 machine just to run windows when a $500 dell will do the same thing and do it better.

HAL9000

04-06-2006, 10:31 AM

Well, for one, I wouldn't buy a $2000 machine, I would buy something a little more low end. Secondly, I've always wanted to get a Mac to play on, but didn't want something dedicated to the Mac OS just in case I had no use for it, this way, it's still 100% useful to me instead of being tossed in the corner as junk or being sold off at a fraction of what I paid for it. Thirdly, when I was in the computer biz, it would have been nice to have a bench machine that was Mac/Windows capable just to have that accessibilty each way and a cheap Mac would have fit the bill quite nicely.

If I'm thinking that way, I'm sure many others are as well and to me, that equates to a substantial enough market to be worthwhile.

doctorgonzo

04-06-2006, 10:34 AM

Look at it this way: Apple has nothing to lose by giving people the ability to run Windows on a Mac and everything to gain. If that makes people buy a Mac where they wouldn't have before, that's another sale for Apple.

On the other hand, going in the opposite direction - allowing the Mac OS to run on a PC - would be catastrophic for Apple, and I'm sure they will fight that as much as they can.

IntegraGSR

04-06-2006, 10:55 AM

Who knows soon you will be able to run FreeBSD on a MAC...

Getting closer: http://theweeklyrant.com/article/8/news-apple-bootcamp-boots-linux

mairving

04-06-2006, 11:20 AM

Getting closer: http://theweeklyrant.com/article/8/news-apple-bootcamp-boots-linux
Looks like theyalready have it (http://aplawrence.com/MacOSX/macosxshell.html).

IntegraGSR

04-06-2006, 11:30 AM

Yeah that's Darwin, basically FreeBSD for the Mac, it's the very core of OS X. You can do just about anything Unix inside of it, including running X Windows with gnome or kde.

mairving

04-06-2006, 11:57 AM

Yeah that's Darwin, basically FreeBSD for the Mac, it's the very core of OS X. You can do just about anything Unix inside of it, including running X Windows with gnome or kde.
That was all that the joke was about.

HAL9000

04-06-2006, 12:16 PM

I actually have a copy of Darwin around somewhere that runs on a PC, but it requires a BX chipset motherboard.

kram 2.0

04-06-2006, 08:26 PM

Blue Screen of Death (BSOD) Hits Boot-Camped Intel Mac (http://www.dealcatcher.com/forums/m_402248/tm.htm)

kram

doctorgonzo

04-06-2006, 08:29 PM

Blue Screen of Death (BSOD) Hits Boot-Camped Intel Mac (http://www.dealcatcher.com/forums/m_402248/tm.htm)

kram

Aargh! My eyes! The M$ virus has infected an entirely new species! :D

rspassey

04-06-2006, 09:05 PM

Blue Screen of Death (BSOD) Hits Boot-Camped Intel Mac (http://www.dealcatcher.com/forums/m_402248/tm.htm)

kram

ROFL - It was only a matter of time :D

*I really should start a collection of BSODs, as I have seen them all over the place (from my house, to school, to arcades, to amusement parks, to MAC!!!).

Statica

04-06-2006, 11:17 PM

Phew .. if it wasn't that I might have thought it was a hoax.
Anyways it seems like a driver issue with the proprietary iSight camera.

David M

04-07-2006, 11:51 AM

I guess I'm just in the minority here, I don't see the appeal of buying a $2000 machine just to run windows when a $500 dell will do the same thing and do it better.

The appeal is to have a machine that can run both Mac and PC software on Apple harware, which is generally pretty good and aesthetically appealing hardware.

doctorgonzo

04-07-2006, 11:54 AM

The appeal is to have a machine that can run both Mac and PC software on Apple harware, which is generally pretty good hardware.

I don't know who this guy (http://daringfireball.net/2006/04/windows_the_new_classic) is, but he does sum it up in a pretty good way: In the old word, PCs ran Windows and Macs ran Mac OS. Now, PCs are computers that only run Windows, while Macs are computers than can run anything. Macs are now much more special.

IntegraGSR

04-07-2006, 11:58 AM

Macs are now much more special.

This statement was always true, but no one really listened :cool:

David M

04-07-2006, 11:59 AM

Mac's have has a distinct advantage now in that it can run both Apple and PC software. PC's on the other hand cannot run Apple software. I can definately see Apple hardware sales increasing. A computers only job is to run software and run it quickly..which is easy to forget and the more software it can run the fewer limitations there are for the user.

The downside for Apple is that they are going to have to compete dollar for dollar against PC hardware which in general is less expensive. So if someone has no need to run Apple software and money is an issue, then it still makes more sense to purchase a PC over a Mac. My guess is that we will see Apple lowering their hardware prices a little in order to be more competitive as a result of this change...unless demand increases dramatically.

I'm curious, what changes would be necessary in order to allow a computer to run two operating systems simultaneously?...this would make the "MacIntel" even more appealing.

Mac Medic

04-07-2006, 12:57 PM

I'm curious, what changes would be necessary in order to allow a computer to run two operating systems simultaneously?...this would make the "MacIntel" even more appealing.

That's the supposed "holy grail" there. Just run a windows .exe inside of mac os, no dual booting and no emulation software. The Wine project is working on exactly that with Darwine, it's a long way off though. I'm sort of expecting M$ to do it with the next release of Virtual PC, I guess time will tell.

786ARS

04-07-2006, 01:15 PM

run 2 os's simultaniously, = 4gb ram and dual core processor = £££ very expensive, but the rewards are certainly tempting.

Alaron

04-07-2006, 02:35 PM

Granted it is extra software, but this is pretty darn close to running the two simultaneously. This software released the same day as Bootcamp, but understandably received less press time. Nevertheless, it is interesting.

http://www.parallels.com/en/products/workstation/mac/

edfair

04-07-2006, 02:55 PM

Was at a computer club meeting Wednesday night where one participant brought his system for "show & tell". Another participant now is actively consolidating resources to purchase one.

It was impressive. Not enough for me to buy one but I can enjoy somebody else's pleasure.

Mac Medic

04-08-2006, 12:12 PM

I don't know who this guy (http://daringfireball.net/2006/04/windows_the_new_classic) is, but he does sum it up in a pretty good way: In the old word, PCs ran Windows and Macs ran Mac OS. Now, PCs are computers that only run Windows, while Macs are computers than can run anything. Macs are now much more special.

He pretty much says what I said

"Boot Camp is not about world domination or a direct frontal assault on Microsoft’s Windows monopoly.1 No matter how cool Boot Camp is, it’s not even going to make sense to most people out there, let alone actually get them to buy a Mac. You try explaining “boot loaders” to your mom.

But Boot Camp is inordinately appealing to the higher end of the market, the enthusiasts. Your typical civilian (i.e. non-enthusiast) has no need — or at least sees no need — for dual booting. They use email, they use a web browser, they want something useful to happen when they plug a digital camera into their USB port. Whichever OS comes on their computer is good enough for this.

But there are all sorts of uses for Boot Camp for nerds."

I still say it's a VERY small minority of Geeks that find this appealing... If Apple gain 1% market share from this I would be shocked.