No POST on first power on

[hodunwun]

New build with Asus P4P800s-s, Intell P4 3.0 g Prescott, Seagate SATA HDD, 1 gig Viking Memory and Asus 6200 video. After checking through the set up according to MOBO book and building list I fired ti up. A ll five fans working including the cpu fan, light on Mobo turns on, monitor works. On the very first turn on the POST or one like it showed up. I pushed the reset button to check to see if it works and it did, but the boot up stopped at the MOBO page. At the bottom of the page it said "Tab for setup" and" Delete for POST". Clicking either one [tab or delete] does not advance the monitor screen. Tried rebooting, same thing. Changed key boards, same thing. Ok, lay it on me guys/gals. I'm ready to weap.
Doug

[AdamCassady]

I'm having similar problems. I got a few consistent displays, didn't fully POST (but got to detecting drives), now nothing.

[hodunwun]

Further information on new build: After plugging in two different keyboards I get no lights on the key board, like for num lock or cap lock. As I said before, I get stopped at the flash screen with the name of the Motherboard. Does getting this far into the boot rule out a mobo problem? could it just be a power problem on the mobo side of the keyboard connector?? :confused:

[hodunwun]

Well I sympathize Adam. Wish I could help you. I know you just momemtarily touch the pins to start up the machine. It's just a trip switch. I read your other posts. What do you mean now by getting 'nothing'?

[GaryRouth]

Hi hodunwun

By "checking through the set up" with the manual, do you mean to say you went through the Bios Setup screens one by one already? Or not?

If you haven't made it into Bios Setup (or if you suspect perhaps your current setup isn't going well), try clearing the current settings with the CLRTC1 jumper. Normal has the jumper on pins 1&2. To clear the CMOS, power off and unplug the power cord, and move the jumper cap from pins 1&2 (normal) onto pins 2&3 (clear CMOS) for about 5 to 10 seconds. Then place the jumper cap back on pins 1&2. Plug in, power on, and press the <DEL> key during power up to enter the Bios Setup screens. It helps to have the manual handy as you go from page to page. For a quick troubleshooting boot, you could try the shortcut of pressing F5 to "Save Defaults & Exit" (this would let you try to boot with fail-safe settings, and you could return later to tune the settings for performance).

If all the keyboards you have been trying are USB keyboards, and the Bios setting "Legacy USB Support" isn't set to either "Auto" or "Enabled" [that is = if it's set to "Disabled"], after resetting the CMOS as outlined above, a USB keyboard should now work, as the default setting is "Auto". If the board is picky about which USB port the keyboard is plugged into, see if using a PS/2 keyboard gets you past that hurdle.

See if that does it.
. . . Gary

[p.s. .. that's a 2003 board hasn't had a bios update in awhile - does the current version of your Bios support your model Prescott by autodetect? If not, you could try using the most recent bios you can download from Asus.]

[AdamCassady]

Well, now all of the fans are spinning, but no display. This seems to have happened after trying to connect a (possibly faulty) IDE HDD. But that wouldn't ruin any of the other components, would it?

[hodunwun]

Thanks Gary. Gives me something to check out. Have never been into bios setup yet. It's a used mobo and cpu which were pulled from a working machine. So I assume the prescott matches. I'm off to run the checks. I'll get back.

[Alaron]

__Moderator Note__

Adam, please don't hijack hodunwun's thread. You have one. :)

[hodunwun]

Tried clearing cmos with the clrt moving jumper from 1&2 to 2&3 and back after ten seconds. No help. I get a black screen that says, "Reboot and sellect proper boot device OR insert boot media in selllected boot device and press a key". I tried rebooting with the xp pro cd and same thing. Since I can't get into the bios I don't know what boot device is sellected. I have xp pro boot floppy made on another machine. Should I try that? I think that is for starting xp pro once it is installed, right? I am still not getting any lights on the keyboard like for num lock etc. By the way I am running a non usb keyboard.

More info: I booted with a disk I made years back called a dos boot up disc from a macihine that had xp pro. At boot up now I get a page that says at the top "American Megatrends" Has a list of all found devices like hard drive, mass storage, zip drive etc found but I don't see any periferal devices like a mouse or key board. Are these external devices suppose to be listed here? This page tells be that the cmos settings are wrong and time needs to be set. I think this makes sense cause I just cleared the bios. Note also that booting with this floppy gives me a num lock light on the keyboard but pushing the num lock key does not turn the light off. Still cannot enter bios setup And so the saga continues, eh??

[GaryRouth]

Hi again

Is the keyboard that showed enough signs of life to flash its lights briefly (showing it was supplied with power, if nothing else) a USB keyboard or a PS/2 keyboard? If you haven't tried things with a PS/2 keyboard yet - that's the easiest to use for entering the Bios. For your board, it's the Delete key <DEL> that let's you enter the Bios Setup.

Since it's an older board (but not that old) - and the Bios settings are likely off a bit, you can try replacing the CMOS coin battery (usually a CR2032 3v coin battery), they only cost about $1.50. A failing CMOS battery can cause all sorts of boot problems, so it's a possibility.

I think once you can enter Bios Setup, you'll be OK. (though you still might need to update the Bios for you model Prescott).
. . . Gary

late edit: I see that you already mentioned you're using a PS/2 keyboard. If it happens to be a wireless keyboard setup, see if it's batteries are good - and that it's "in range" = or try using a plain, wired, keyboard. -- The use of a bootdisk shouldn't effect your ability to get into Bios Setup, since the boot process comes well after the time you'd enter Bios Setup. It really shouldn't effect the use of the keyboard either - keyboard errors will generally stop the POST (if the Bios setting is "Halt On: All Errors" (it's possible the current setting is "Halt On: All, except keyboard"). I'm surprised that resetting the Bios didn't yield a keyboard error at POST. That's why I'm curious to see how things go with a new CMOS battery.

[hodunwun]

I'll go the battery route. Also,Gary, do you think a usb keyboard might work?? Perhaps there is a problem with the input socket for the ps2?? They are not too pricey.

[hodunwun]

Ok,Gary, the latest. I just installed a new battery. System booted right to the bios without me sellecting it. Num light on key board is on again but num key will not turn it off. Still cannot navigate the bios setup cause no keys work the navigation. This is a first however. The first time I have seen the bios. "Time" was not set but since the keyboard does not work, I could not set anything up. Thanks for any help. Standing by.

[GaryRouth]

Hi again


I agree that the next step is to try a different sort of keyboard (in case something is wrong with the current port that you are plugged into, or something is wrong with your current set of keyboards) ... Since you've reset the Bios with the battery replacement, you should have legacy USB support (it's the default). Use a USB port up near the PS/2 connectors, preferably the one closest to the outside edge of the motherboard.

See if that helps.
. . . Gary

[if no luck on your first try with a USB keyboard, try a few of the other USB ports. And, of course, always have the power off and unplugged when plugging in mice and keyboards (this is more critical for PS/2 devices, actually....)]

[hodunwun]

Ok the latest as of Friday, 9-1. Just tried a Dynex ps/2 to usb adapter cable connecting the keyboard to a usb port on the mb of which there are four. Turn on the computer and flash screen came up as usual. Clicked on Delete right away and this took me to the bios. But within I would say 20 seconds the keys on the keyboard would not work to navigate the bios. I know for certain that the key board works cause I just stole it from my wife's computer which is a Dell dual cpu dual hd scusi. I tried other usb ports on the computer including a usb 2.0 pci card with four ports. Gary, do you think the mobo is the problem? Could it be the cpu? If you think the mobo is the problem give me an Ausus number for a new board. This is a used p4p800s-x. I want a board the will run up to 3.6 in an Intell P4 Prescott. If you suggest another p4p800s-x that would be fine. I am not an AMD person just have always used Intell.
Thanks, Doug

[GaryRouth]

Just to see - if you can round up a USB keyboard that doesn't use an adapter (just plugs right in to the USB port) - see what happens Someone might be nice enough to lend you one for a bit. Adapters for mice and keyboards can be pretty finicky.

You've mentioned before that the cpu fan spins at startup. When the keyboard stopped on your last try after 20 seconds, did the cpu fan stop at the same time?

Might as well move on to the out-of-the-case troubleshooter, replacing parts with known-good parts till the culprit is found. Could be heat, cpu or cpu settings, motherboard, memory, even power supply. http://forum.pcmech.com/showthread.php?t=12753

You mention that the motherboard is used, and that it was pulled from a working machine. Did you do the pull? Or a friend? Or is this from an auction site? (If so, you might still be within the usually-brief warranty period). If it's a local pull, was the power supply superior in it's original case? Can you borrow that memory back again for a few minutes to test if it's a factor? The nice thing about the out-of-the-case troubleshooter is that the hard drive will be disconnected, and there's no possibility of shorts from the case to confuse the issues. Try a different video card too (if you've a suitable spare available - in fact, if you've got the one that it worked with originally in it's other case, try that). Substituting the basic parts one-by-one helps narrow down the possibilities.

The socket 478 boards are starting to get pretty limited in supply - your Asus board --new-- still runs around $97 (USD) [over $100 plus shipping] - seems a bit high for an aging board! And often you have to wait for availability - since they are out of stock at several vendors (NewEgg, for example, still has it listed - but it's out of stock). NewEgg did have a SiS chipset Asus for the Prescott for around $60 - it might do for this modest build -- they also had an Epox with the Intel 865PE chipset for $55.

Test what you can, and see if something turns up
. . . Gary

[hodunwun]

Thanks Gary for all the info. Everything is new except the mobo and cpu. But the new power supply is only 300watts. I've got a bid on a six hundred watt twin fan PS. I'll replace that. Also bought a new Microsoft usb key board that I can take back. I'll test it with that first. There is a Asus P4S800D-x for sixty I think would work. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131527
I have seen the instructions for pulling everything out. Don't want to do that just to test components. Is there any reason why I cannot elliminate items while still in the case? I'll get back today with results of new keyboard test.
doug

[hodunwun]

Gary, Just tried new Microsoft usb keyboard. Same results. Cannot enter bios. Fan on ecu and other four fans running all the time. What should I starta pulling first to eliminate bad components? Can I just pull say the memory and start back up with out it and then see if keyboard works??

[GaryRouth]

Hi again

I know it's a pain, but out-of-the-case troubleshooting eliminates many short-circuit possibilities that you couldn't rule out otherwise.

Unfortunately, without any memory in the slots, nothing would happen. You have to use at least one stick (preferably a known-good stick [tested in another system already, for example]) during the troubleshooting.

An underpowered (or faulty) supply can cause all sorts of trouble. 300wts from a dependable suppier (there's a list here of preferred manufacturers http://forum.pcmech.com/showthread.php?t=131195 ) should have a good chance to power things - especially during your out-of-the-case troubleshooting, when the drives won't be plugged in. A high-quality unit from a top manufacturer truly provides the power levels advertized, whereas low-end units from lesser brands often perform badly, regardless of their wattage rating (the power can be inconsistent, or "dirty" - or simply fail). I highly recommend the list in the link (the list itself is from our General Hardware Forum).

If you have both the memory and the power supply from the box in which the mobo/cpu worked well previously, that would help - since they are known-good, known-compatible with the current setup. Of course, that's only possible if you did the pull yourself (and the parts are nearby).

It's possible that a static shock or other overvoltage has damaged the motherboard. If somewhere along the line, a PS/2 keyboard was plugged in while the power was on - that can cause an overvoltage on the board. Simple static can damage the components, too - if you were unlucky enough not to be grounded at some point during the build. You've tried several keyboards already, and it's sounding more and more like the port - or the motherboard itself, has a failure somewhere. But you really can't know for sure until you go through the steps of the troubleshooter.

Hope it turns out
. . . Gary

[P.S. that ASUS in your last link is the SiS chipset ASUS I mentioned. Since top performance isn't the focus of this modest build, it should do OK].

[hodunwun]

Gary regardless of what happens I want to thank you for your patient help. I still don't understand the logic of parts out of the case. If one wants to find a short, best to have stuff in the case not out of the case. And I am very sure that a wire is not pinched. As for the mobo screws they are all connected through on oboard metal circles. There is no chance of static cause I am compulsive about this. Everything is new except the mobo and cpu which I got used from ebay. All the parts included in the apart test (and only those parts) are already hooked up in the box. It is very nice aluminum box that I paid over a hundred bucks for about three years ago. If I don't pull the stuff from the box, can I still get help?. I'll have to look at the steps that come after pulling everything out to find out what I can do next to rule things out. Is everything short of state of the art called a modest build? It's not a modest build for this old man. I consider it a very nice build within a buget.


If you insist I will pull out everything out. Thanks for the power supply list. I am definitely getting a more powerfull PS inspite of the fact that the one in there is brand new.
doug

[hodunwun]

And the saga continues. Gary, I pulled all the guts out of the case and hooked up according to the trouble shooting list. Keyboard to ps/2 port. Started it up touching the two power pins. Cpu fan starts, light on MB glows, monotor shows entrance page to bios. Pressing F1, as the page requests, sure enough I get into the bios. But after a few seconds the keyboard no longer works the bios navigation.This is the same as before. I don't have another memory board to try. But the one gig board that is in there is brand new.

History: I have tried the keyboard with an usb adapter cord to the usb port. No help, same thing - no bios navigation. I have tried a regualar brand new usb keyboard. No help, same thing. So both the ps/2 and the usb ports for the keyboard function do not work. What next?? Does this rule out the cpu as a problem?
Thanks for your attention.
Doug

[flanzig1]

hodunwun: Check the heatsink for the CPU is fully latched on and if you were reusing the CPU, did you clean off the old thermal compound and apply new? If the HSU isn't fully latched, the CPU will heat up and then do a thermal shutdown.

[hodunwun]

hello and thanks for your quick help. Would this heat build up and shut down happen within the first 45 seconds of turn on with the cpu fan working? It's a used cpu and mother board from ebay. Was told it was pulled from a working machine. Cpu and bottom of heatsink were clean on reinstallation. How about too much paste? Would that be a problem? I use all that was in the little injector I bought separately. I can buy some more and start from scratch if you think it necessary? The two latches appear connected properly and heat sink seems firm does not rock around. What next?

[flanzig1]

Yes, the CPU can heat up that fast if the HSU is not mounted correctly or no or improperly applied thermal compound.
When appling thermal compound, you want an amount the size of a grain of rice and spread it out with like the edge of a credit card so there is a uniform film covering the CPU (just the metal square).

[GaryRouth]

Hi again

It's starting to look like a system-lockup, rather than a keyboard, problem. Since the keyboard works, however briefly - our attention shifts to the motherboard, cpu, and power supply [generally when the memory is bad, the system won't start at all, or is able to display the POST messages fine, but then fails later on under heavier loads].

Since you aren't a repair shop, you probably don't have the luxury of having another board, cpu, or power supply around to swap out. That would be what we'd do next.

If the motherboard/cpu came from an auction, they could have been damaged in shipping - whether during packing or delivery. Or they could have been tested less-well than possible.

Unlikely causes, but worth double-checking = Heat, video card, power supply connectors, USB jumpers...

Heat can cause a lockup like this, although you've mentioned that the fans are still spinning - it would be unusual, especially if the cpu was never removed during the mb/cpu switch from their original machine. Might as well check it, since things are right there (at least the parts are easy to get to out-of-the-box). Remove the heatsink, remove the old thermal paste, apply new, reattach heatsink, and see if it makes any difference.

I believe the 6200 video card is a 1.5v AGP 8x compliant card, so that shouldn't be the problem - - if it was faulty, I'd expect different symptoms.

Since you are an experienced builder I imagine that you've got everything connected securely (beginners sometimes forget to attach the square 4-pin 12v power connector).

Here's a real unlikely scenario - the USB "device wake-up" jumpers could be set wrong for the power supply that you are using now. The jumpers for USBPW1 and USBPW2 might need to be set on pin-pairs 1,4 and 2,5 for regular 5v operation (rather than the default +5VSB setting). Here's a quote from the Asus manual: The wake up function "+5VSB requires a power supply that can supply at least 1A on the +5VSB lead when the jumpers are set to +5VSB -- otherwise, the system will not power up". The reason that this is unlikely is that your system is indeed powering up, but it's then locking up.

Good luck, at least boards and chips are good values right now, if worse comes to worse.
. . . Gary

late edit -- just noticed that you did buy at auction -- many vendors have fairly decent DOA warranties of up to 30days.

[hodunwun]

Flan and Gary: Just removed the heatsink and cleaned the cpu and sink off with laquer thinner sparcely on a rag. Reapplied a thin layer of leftover paste (only a week old) thin enough to be transparent. It was too thick, say about .005" and apaque. Installed the heatsink. No help. Same problem- no keyboard control. I am not apposed to getting another Asus board p4s800d-x at Newegg price of $60 bucks. Have a bid on a 600 watt Powork PSU for $30. Seller says retailed for $130 with two sata lines. I see that Powork is unrated by pc mechanic. If I'm out bid will get an Antec PS. If not, I'll try the Powork. You guys have any experience with Powork PSUs? Is it time to try a new mobo?? Or wait for more power supply? Current running a new dual fan 300 watt ISO-400d.
doug

[GaryRouth]

Hi again

Re: power supplies
I'd highly recommend sticking to a known brand from our list in General Hardware (that I linked to earlier). Powork looks terrible - and I don't know what the fellow on eBay thought it was worth -- the so-called "600wt" Powork power supply that he claims is worth $130 is selling for $19 at geeks.com. New. I really doubt that a quality 600wt. supply ever sells for $19. http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=DUAL-PW-600&cat=PWR http://www.evertek.com/viewpart.asp?auto=24547

A quality 600wt supply should be closer to $100 to $150 - the Fortron Source models go for $154 & $164 -- the Antec 600wt is $150 -- the Enermax models range from $170 to $220.

Your power needs for the current build, with it's 478 socket processor and AGP graphics, isn't going to need a 600wt supply. Antec is havng a promotion, and the 380wt TruePower model has been on sale in various areas for around $60, and the SmartPower around $50 - depending on the store. [The TruePowers have a single, very quiet 120mm fan, which is a big plus in my book]. Heck, get lucky, and on the right day a SmartPower 500wt can be had for $60 to get you into the store [that's when you call ahead to see if they are all "sold out" already]...

That's about it for now. . . [and remember - don't be shy about sticking up for your rights as a consumer... if the ebay merchant had guarantees for that mobo/cpu combo, then you have the right to return it]
. . . Gary

[glc]

No way do you need that powerful a PSU - all you need is a *quality* 300 watt to run that rig, and you do NOT need ATX 2.0 either. I've got a ePower 350 watt in this thing which cost $21 plus shipping at Newegg, and it's running a lot more stuff than what you have there. Powork is a joke.

I'm a bit confused - what exact motherboard do you have? P4P800S-X? That should be decent, it has the Intel 848P chipset. It REQUIRES bios 1005A or newer for Prescott support.

You know, I'm wondering why you are messing around buying previous generation used components from Ebay. Current new stuff from quality vendors shouldn't cost you much more and you will have a good warranty.

You might want to read the sticky thread in General Discussion about why some builders have more problems than others.