Board DOA ?

[chrisa]

I'm a hobbyist builder but this isn't my first build. However, I'm experiencing an issue on a new build that I haven't encountered before. Specs:

Mobo: MSI K9NGM2 AM2 w/ integrated GeForce 6150 video (first board w/ integrated video I've ever used)

Processor: AMD AM2 3800+ X2

RAM: 1gb SuperTalent DDR2-667

HDD: 160gb Hitachi DeskStar SATA2

PSU: 430w Thermaltake TR2


First time powering up, all the fans start spinning but no video output at all. There is no sound from the pc speaker and no apparent hard drive activity so I don't believe it's posting but simply failing to send the video. Monitor is powered on but makes no attempt to power up from standby. At this point, neither the power nor reset buttons will function to turn the machine off; it can only be accomplished to turning off the power supply.

I'm fearful that I have my first DOA board. I sure hope not, as I'm doing this build for a friend who is wanting it NOW. My only other thought is that having only a single DIMM is causing a problem, but wouldn't it at least make it until the memory test before dying if that was the case?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

[jayb1234]

The AM2 motherboards are extra picky about what RAM they will run correctly with. Check Gigabytes website or the motherboard manual to see if you can find the compatible RAM list and whether or not the RAM you have is on it. Also that power supply isn't up to handling the rest of the components. It only has 18A on a single +12V rail. You will need an ATX 2.0 psu from a good maker like Antec, Enermax or FSP-Fortron. Newegg has the Antec TP-II 550W (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817103931) for 65 bucks after rebate.

[chrisa]

The AM2 motherboards are extra picky about what RAM they will run correctly with. Check Gigabytes website or the motherboard manual to see if you can find the compatible RAM list and whether or not the RAM you have is on it. Also that power supply isn't up to handling the rest of the components. It only has 18A on a single +12V rail. You will need an ATX 2.0 psu from a good maker like Antec, Enermax or FSP-Fortron. Newegg has the Antec TP-II 550W (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817103931) for 65 bucks after rebate.

Thanks for the comments. It's actually an MSI board rather than Gigabyte, but your point is well taken. A review of the compatible RAM .pdf on MSI's site showed that SuperTalent was not tested. Even if the RAM were incompatible, though, wouldn't the board at least *try*? Put something up on the screen, at least, instead of just locking with no video out or hard drive activity?

You sure about the PSU being underpowered? I know Thermaltake is no Antec, but I've had good luck with units in the past on systems that were loaded more heavily than this one. It's just the processor, one hard drive and one DVD Burner. Audio and video are integrated in the board.

[GaryRouth]

Hi chrisa

Have you tried things out-of-the-case yet? http://forum.pcmech.com/showthread.php?t=12753
http://www.msicomputer.com/support/sup_tshoot.asp#1_5

Or, for a try at a quick-fix -
Power off, unplug, reseat memory and cpu, clear the CMOS, and try again.

If you can get into the Bios Setup screens with that, make sure to visit the memory settings - MSI mentions that some memory modules require a little extra voltage than the standard level on that model board . . . to quote from their page for your board:
_____________________________________
"--- Supports 1.8v DDR2 SDRAM DIMM
Due to the High Performance Memory design, motherboards or system configurations may or may not operate smoothly at the JEDEC (Joint Electron Device Engineering Council) standard settings (BIOS Default on the motherboard) such as DDR2 voltage, memory speeds and memory timing. Please confirm and adjust your memory setting in the BIOS accordingly for better system stability.
Example: Kingston HyperX DDR2-800 PC-6400 operates at 2.0V, 4-4-4-12. "
______________________________

... and it's true I've seen mention at a few forums of builders having to use premium line power supplies to keep it happy.

Best of luck
. . . Gary

[chrisa]

Hi chrisa

Have you tried things out-of-the-case yet? http://forum.pcmech.com/showthread.php?t=12753
http://www.msicomputer.com/support/sup_tshoot.asp#1_5

Or, for a try at a quick-fix -
Power off, unplug, reseat memory and cpu, clear the CMOS, and try again.

If you can get into the Bios Setup screens with that, make sure to visit the memory settings - MSI mentions that some memory modules require a little extra voltage than the standard level on that model board . . . to quote from their page for your board:
_____________________________________
"--- Supports 1.8v DDR2 SDRAM DIMM
Due to the High Performance Memory design, motherboards or system configurations may or may not operate smoothly at the JEDEC (Joint Electron Device Engineering Council) standard settings (BIOS Default on the motherboard) such as DDR2 voltage, memory speeds and memory timing. Please confirm and adjust your memory setting in the BIOS accordingly for better system stability.
Example: Kingston HyperX DDR2-800 PC-6400 operates at 2.0V, 4-4-4-12. "
______________________________

... and it's true I've seen mention at a few forums of builders having to use premium line power supplies to keep it happy.

Best of luck
. . . Gary


Hi Gary,

Thanks so much for taking the time to comment on my issue. I have not tried the out-of-the-box fix yet but I will tonight. Also going to try two sticks of Kingston 512mb DDR2-667 instead of a single SuperTalent 1gb stick.

I sure have a sinking feeling that it's the board but I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

Regarding the PSU, I have the parts for another build on the way. It's a much higher performance and power-demanding Core 2 Duo system (2 SATA2 hdd, DVD/CD Combo burner, 2gb DDR2-800, GeForce 7600GS) that was going to be housed in an Antec Sonata II. That case comes with a 450w Antec PSU that I assumed would be sufficient. Will it?

Steve

[glc]

Yes, the Antec PSU will handle a 7600GS.

The problem with your Thermaltake is not quality - it's the fact it's not a true ATX 2.0 power supply, it's an old ATX 1.x unit that's been retrofitted with the extra 4 pin connector. It's way shy on +12v amps for a PCI-E motherboard, whether you use a video card or not. It's still one of the best PSU's for the money for an AGP board.

[chrisa]

The problem with your Thermaltake is not quality - it's the fact it's not a true ATX 2.0 power supply, it's an old ATX 1.x unit that's been retrofitted with the extra 4 pin connector. It's way shy on +12v amps for a PCI-E motherboard, whether you use a video card or not. It's still one of the best PSU's for the money for an AGP board.

I didn't realize that PCIe required so much additional power. This is the first PCIe board I have used and, obviously, I'm off to an auspicious start. How many amps on the 12v rail would typically be needed for a relatively low-end build like this: PCIe board, AM2 3800+ X2 w/ stock hs/f, one SATA2, one DVD/CD Burner, two 512mb DDR2-667, one 120mm case fan, one 80mm case fan.

If the Thermaltake is underpowered, is it at all possible that it could be causing the problem I described at the top of this thread?

[Cricket]

If the Thermaltake is underpowered, is it at all possible that it could be causing the problem I described at the top of this thread?If it's underpowered? Not too likely. But if it's defective...yes.

The problem you describe is more commonly associated with the motherboard shorting/grounding out to the case. Doing the out of case build will help you determine if that is the problem or not.

:) Cricket

[chrisa]

If it's underpowered? Not too likely. But if it's defective...yes.

The problem you describe is more commonly associated with the motherboard shorting/grounding out to the case. Doing the out of case build will help you determine if that is the problem or not.

:) Cricket

Thanks, Cricket. I'll give a try. I've never had a board short/ground from the screws or case but I'm assuming that if it occasionally happens that Comp USA or someplace must sell plastic or rubber "washers" of sorts, wouldn't they?

[jayb1234]

If your case has a removable motherboard tray, take a close look at the edges to see that nothing on the board is touching the lip around the edge of the tray, and bend the lip slightly to get some clearance in you have to. Among others, some of the Thermaltake cases have had that problem on some models. The standoffs that are under the screw holes in the motherboard shouldn't be causing a problem, but if there is an extra stray one somewhere other that under the screw holes, that will short the board to the case.

[glc]

If you never plan on installing a video card, the Thermaltake should be adequate. I've used 350 watt dual rail Fortrons for budget PCI-E builds, total +12v amps are 34 though.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817104901

[chrisa]

Unfortunately, my attempts last night to solve the issue failed. I pulled the motherboard from the case and disconnected everything except the RAM and processor/hsf. I set the board on the cardboard box and plugged in the dsub video cable. I shorted the power switch pins with a screwdriver. It behaved exactly as described before: the processor fan came and spun smoothly and quietly, but no video was sent. The monitor never attempted to ramp up from standby mode, so it was receiving no signal.

At this point, as before, there was no way to turn the power off to the board other than be switching off the power supply. Shorting the power switch pins with a screwdriver had no effect, so clearly the board was completely locked.

I tried several times, using a single 1gb SuperTalent RAM chip in various slots, and two 512mb KByte RAM chips in slots 1/2 and 3/4. The result was the same every time.

Since I've always had amazingly good luck with boards (never a single DOA, only one that has ever failed in a system before being voluntarily replaced for a better model), I have assumed that probably 8 out of every 10 reports of a DOA board (especially on Newegg) were really just caused by people who don't know what they're doing. So now I'm left in the unenviable position of deciding between two things that suck -- either 1) my good luck has run out and I have my first DOA board, or 2) with respect to AM2 at least, I need to lump myself into the category of someone who doesn't know what they're doing!

Unless someone has a better idea, I'm going to RMA the board to Newegg and try again. Hopefully the next one will work fine; it it doesn't, I'll have to accept that in all likelihood the problem is me rather than the board.

[jfk]

Is that ram certified for use in that board? Is it listed on the manufacturers QVL list? The AM2's are VERY picky about ram. Additionally, if you don't use DDR2 800 ram, you are hurting performance and will wind up with a system that isn't as fast as a 939 series CPU. Just another thought...........

[GaryRouth]

Hi again

Depending on the length of the motherboard's warranty - I'd still wait until the Antec arrives, and use the Antec to test with. If things start OK with the Antec, then you can try exchanging the Thermaltake, if it has a generous warranty. As glc mentioned, the problem could lie in the nature of the Thermaltake supply's ATX 2.0 support.

If things still refuse to start, that would seem to narrow the possibilities to either the touchy memory compatibility issue, or a motherboard RMA situation. I can understand your reluctance - I haven't had an RMA situation yet, either [knock on silicon :) ].

Hope it turns out for the better soon
. . . Gary

[chrisa]

Is that ram certified for use in that board? Is it listed on the manufacturers QVL list? The AM2's are VERY picky about ram. Additionally, if you don't use DDR2 800 ram, you are hurting performance and will wind up with a system that isn't as fast as a 939 series CPU. Just another thought...........

No, neither the SuperTalent nor the KByte RAM is listed among the RAM modules certified by MSI for this board. However, they're the only two I had available.

Even if that memory is not compatible, wouldn't the failure be postponed until the memory test? I would at least expect to see the standard power-up sequence on the monitor until the memory check failed. Wouldn't that be the case?

If there is ANY possibility that incompatible RAM would completely lock the board up, send no video whatsoever, ignore input from the power and reset switches, etc., then I'll run up to Best Buy or Comp USA and get a stick of Kingston.

Thanks for your help, I really appreciate it!

[chrisa]

Hi again

Depending on the length of the motherboard's warranty - I'd still wait until the Antec arrives, and use the Antec to test with. If things start OK with the Antec, then you can try exchanging the Thermaltake, if it has a generous warranty. As glc mentioned, the problem could lie in the nature of the Thermaltake supply's ATX 2.0 support.

If things still refuse to start, that would seem to narrow the possibilities to either the touchy memory compatibility issue, or a motherboard RMA situation. I can understand your reluctance - I haven't had an RMA situation yet, either [knock on silicon :) ].

Hope it turns out for the better soon
. . . Gary

Hi Gary,

Unfortunately, because of the holiday, the Antec won't be here until Friday of next week at the earliest. The friend I'm building this machine for was hoping to have it last week. I'm going to exhaust every possibility I can to fix this without a mothboard RMA, though, because doing that means that the replacement won't even be here until Thursday of the week AFTER next at the absolute earliest, probably even later depending upon how quickly Newegg processes it.

I wonder if I took the board and processor/hsf up to the Geek Squad place at Best Buy, if they would be able to hook up a better PSU (maybe the Kingston RAM, too) to see if they get a signal from the Dsub?

[GaryRouth]

Hi again

re: incompatible memory
Actually, when memory is incompatible, the symptoms can be just like what you are experiencing. Memory that is compatible, but failing, can often make it through the POST memory test, but cause trouble after Windows boots & is under a more demanding load.

re: Geek Squad
I haven't any experience with them, so I don't know that they'd do any troubleshooting free-of-charge, unless you bought the motherboard from BestBuy. The cost of having the Geek Squad do a for-change troubleshooting might be 2/3 of the cost of the motherboard itself. Call the Geek Squad beforehand to make sure of the charges involved before going that route.

It's very hard to tell which component is at fault, other than swapping devices one at a time. It's not much fun - but if you find the part quickly, perhaps you can get going quickly enough that you won't lose much more time.

Best of luck
. . . Gary