Mild rant

[hitchface]

How is it that computer manufacturers have the guile to be selling systems with Vista on them? No compatibility, with several key programs (to some of us anyways) not working AT ALL, and they expect people to be happy with it all!? The best part of Vista right now is Mahjong Titans!

I mean, most of us knew that we'd be waiting a long time before we took the Visa plunge because of these things, but shouldn't Micro$oft know that? Shouldn't the manufacturers? Now I need to get a new copy of XP to throw on a brand new machine in the place of Vista, and re-install it when SP2 comes out! I just never understood why beta testing didn't rule out the need for service packs...

But hey, we are all in the same boat I guess. My advice? Unless you ABSOLUTELY have to get a new machine like I did...hold off till Vienna is out, THEN switch to Vista.

[HAL9000]

Doesn't matter... I think my next machine will be a 24" Mac

[mairving]

What are the programs that are causing problems?

[EzyStvy]

MANY of the issues with Vista are due to the OTHER software/hardware companies that knew for years they'd need get busy and create updates....

[Cricket]

Unless you ABSOLUTELY have to get a new machine like I did.You bought a brand name computer with Vista already on it?hold off till Vienna is outWhat's Vienna?

:) Cricket

[hitchface]

To Cricket: The only computers out there to buy (laptops anyways) that don't involve getting a dell refurb have Vista.

And Vienna is the codename for the highly rumored OS to replace Vista.

And EzyStvy, you are too right, eh? I guess it's just a frustration at the situation in general.

[mairving]

To Cricket: The only computers out there to buy (laptops anyways) that don't involve getting a dell refurb have Vista.

Not true. You can still get XP on Dell's. You just have to order them under small business.

[hitchface]

Well there's a new bit for me. Either way, I already have a laptop here with Vista. The point is that the options are quite limited.

[mairving]

So what are the programs that aren't working with Vista?

[Darth Revan]

What mairving said.

[EzyStvy]

I wonder if the four sealed Retail copies I have of XP Pro will go up in value:eek:

[Litespeed]

Doesn't matter... I think my next machine will be a 24" Mac

I think I might follow your lead. We need a new laptop, and the computer in my sig will be around for a while. Therefore I think we might get one of those Mac Book Pro. They are pretty.

[Pride]

How is it that computer manufacturers have the guile to be selling systems with Vista on them? No compatibility, with several key programs (to some of us anyways) not working AT ALL, and they expect people to be happy with it all!? The best part of Vista right now is Mahjong Titans!

I mean, most of us knew that we'd be waiting a long time before we took the Visa plunge because of these things, but shouldn't Micro$oft know that? Shouldn't the manufacturers? Now I need to get a new copy of XP to throw on a brand new machine in the place of Vista, and re-install it when SP2 comes out! I just never understood why beta testing didn't rule out the need for service packs...

But hey, we are all in the same boat I guess. My advice? Unless you ABSOLUTELY have to get a new machine like I did...hold off till Vienna is out, THEN switch to Vista.


I dissagree with this complaint. Honestly how long have you even been running a Vista system. And how many programs have you ACTUALLY had problems with? I myself have had Vista almost immediatly and have yet to run accross any issues of this nature with the exception of Nero which I only had to wait a week or so before that was compatible as well.

I think the bigger issue is that they release computers with Vista that are incapable of even running Vista smoothly. And what is even sadder is that these companies are all pissed at Microsoft because the cheap peices of crap they try to release with Vista FINALLY are showing their true colors meaning that even the most basic user can finally tell that they were ripped off.

[hitchface]

I wouldn't be complaining about my personal experience with Vista if I didn't have it.

The programs are any antivirus/anti-spyware programs (Kaspersky, AVG, Spybot etc), and Symantec pcAnywhere. Even their 12.1 version that is supposed to work with Vista...doesn't. Each of these programs quits at any given time, and coincidentally each of them is essential for our business.

I heard that AVG was optimized to work with Vista recently, and got all excited. I'm finding it hard to believe now that it has crashed a few times.

[Pride]

Yes sorry about that it was somewhat a misstyping error lol. I started saying stuff without realizing what i was saying. I edited though. Same basic point.

Spybot Works with Vista.

AVG works with Vista and i have never had problems with it crashing.

Kaspersky is not compatible.

And im not sure about PcAnywhere but i belive norton is compatible though,

But at the same time your naming off a bunch of the same type of thing. All you need to worry about is the one you are going to use. And to me does not make your rant entirely viable.

[hitchface]

pcAnywhere is mandatory. Absolutely needs to work.

I use Spybot and both AVG programs because they work well together and catch most everything.

Kaspersky, I didn't really expect it to be, but I was hoping. The issue there is that there is no cross compatibility between the two systems, and that fault could lie on K. Labs or M$.

[blue60007]

People hear there's a new OS and want to get it...if manufacturer's don't offer Vista, well they lose out on a bunch of sales. Us computer enthusiasts make up a small portion of MS sales...

[hitchface]

Oh my how true it is.

[DSCHIEF]

How is it that computer manufacturers have the guile to be selling systems with Vista on them? No compatibility, with several key programs (to some of us anyways) not working AT ALL, and they expect people to be happy with it all!? The best part of Vista right now is Mahjong Titans!

I mean, most of us knew that we'd be waiting a long time before we took the Visa plunge because of these things, but shouldn't Micro$oft know that? Shouldn't the manufacturers? Now I need to get a new copy of XP to throw on a brand new machine in the place of Vista, and re-install it when SP2 comes out! I just never understood why beta testing didn't rule out the need for service packs...

But hey, we are all in the same boat I guess. My advice? Unless you ABSOLUTELY have to get a new machine like I did...hold off till Vienna is out, THEN switch to Vista.


"I need to get a new copy of XP to throw on a brand new machine in the place of Vista, "
ANd now XP costs more than vista, It's pretty obvious that the consumer is getting reamed"


Now more than ever, it's time to abandon Microsoft Permanantly:

LINUX = FREE !!
LINUX =STABILE !!

OPen Office = FREE

If any group in the world could survive without Bill Gates; it's the people here.

[hitchface]

Y`know, I have always thought about switching over, but we would lose so much business productivity that it doesn`t make enough sense.

[HAL9000]

I think Linux is great IF;

1) You have the time to learn a completely new OS and apps
2) You don't have any software that is Windows only.
3) You don't have a bunch of other people to train on a new OS and apps.

I ran Linux for something like 3 or 4 years as a web and ftp server, but never really had the time to play with it at all and when I did need to do something, never had the time to figure out how it had to be done.. finally wiped it and put XP on.

[Statica]

Funny how people will blame an OS even if the issues could be completely unrelated.
OEM's using unstable hardware .. just blame Vista and Microsoft!
S/w developers haven't updated code .. just let's blame Vista and Microsoft!
Using an old version that isn't Vista compatible .. just blame Vista and Microsoft!
Manufacturers have been privy to Vista's platform for a few years now .. if they haven't updated their software, maybe it's time you blamed them.

Microsoft provides the platform .. the rest is largely up to h/w and s/w manufacturers to provide compatibility solutions if they are to be included on the Windows platform.

You could go through the same scenario with Linux!

A Mac largely works because it's a very exclusionary set of hardware parameters... coupled with a rather sparse (compared to Windows) offering of s/w.

[David M]

Give it time people....like a year. The bugs in Vista need to be cleaned up and the software companies need time to catch up.

Patience Grasshopper.

[Floppyman]

Doesn't matter... I think my next machine will be a 24" Mac

Funny you should mention that -- I've also considered switching. For me at the end it comes down to software compatibility though. Although, I guess I could just slap Windows on it as well. Oh well, I guess then the only thing to consider is the price.

[Kareeser]

Funny how you mention you'd rather wait for Vienna... because I just know that when THAT OS is released, you'll be back here telling people that it's buggy, and that we should wait for whichever one comes after that.

[hitchface]

I said wait for Vienna and then switch to Vista.

Aside from that, my frustration remains with Microsoft for the most part because I think they could go a long way in working with software companies to increase compatibility upon release rather than wait for patches. Sure, the onus is on those providers to create a stable program, but without any type of base to work on, it would be like flying blind. Perhaps the beta programs should extend further so as to include major software companies?

[Pride]

I said wait for Vienna and then switch to Vista.

Aside from that, my frustration remains with Microsoft for the most part because I think they could go a long way in working with software companies to increase compatibility upon release rather than wait for patches. Sure, the onus is on those providers to create a stable program, but without any type of base to work on, it would be like flying blind. Perhaps the beta programs should extend further so as to include major software companies?


Betas were our about a couple years before it was even released for public beta testing. Software companies could have got ahold of it im sure.

[hitchface]

It would seem to me that if betas were available to software companies for the sake of developing content, they would have taken advantage of that. From what I can see, business people stand to lose money over the issue.

[Panama Red]

It would seem to me that if betas were available to software companies for the sake of developing content, they would have taken advantage of that. From what I can see, business people stand to lose money over the issue.

You need to reread Statica's post #22 above. The software companies DID have the necessary info. Some just weren't ready when Vista was released. As Statica said, that's not a MS problem. I know you're frustrated because PCAnywhere doesn't work correctly on Vista but posting all this conjecture in every Vista thread on PCM isn't going to correct the problem. Have you tried contacting the maker of PCAnywhere to see when/if they plan to release an update? That's where your solution lies - that, or reinstalling XP as you inidcated.

Here's an analogy for you. I decide to buy a new SUV. All the GMC Denali's I look at have oversized tires installed. I like the look so I buy one. When I bring it home, I find that the vehicle is too high to fit in my garage. Who do I blame? GM for making the vehicle too tall? Goodyear for misleading me with these good looking, oversized meats? How bout the wheel manufacturer, surely they should share some responsibility? Someone should have warned me! The guy that built my garage should have posted a sign that tells me how tall a vehicle will fit inside. These people are all out to make my life difficult. If this problem exists, they never should have sold these Denali's. Stupid GM! Corrupt Goodyear! Ignorant builder! I'm gonna tell the world how they've all made my life miserable!!

At what point do we take responsibility for our own actions? Proper research would have prevented the car issue and proper research would have prevented you from buying a new laptop with Vista installed. The fact that you didn't know you coulld still get XP is the relevant issue - along with the fact that you assumed all your required software would work on Vista. How is any of this MS's fault or Dell's for that matter?

[Statica]

Aside from that, my frustration remains with Microsoft for the most part because I think they could go a long way in working with software companies to increase compatibility upon release rather than wait for patches. Sure, the onus is on those providers to create a stable program, but without any type of base to work on, it would be like flying blind. Perhaps the beta programs should extend further so as to include major software companies?

You're just assuming that Microsoft develops code in secret and then shoves it down everyone's throats. FYI - there is a HUGE amount of collaboration done between h/w and s/w manufacturers and Microsoft before the release of a major service pack or an OS. You think that MS is lazy or doesnt have enough programmers and thats why it takes them so much time to release SP2 for XP? Hardly the case. All the time goes on testing and retesting to make sure that the broad spectrum of h/w and s/w works right. You'd be surprised to know that MS provides space for the major h/w manufacturers like Intel, AMD, Nvidia etc etc. right on their Redmond campus to make sure that everyone's on the same page. Every s/w manufacturer had access to Vista's beta code so that they could update their products - well before Vista was even called Vista. When you have a manufacturer that isn't up to speed, that really isn't MS' issue, is it? It's just that they haven't done their due diligence.

And this isn't just big name s/w mfgers that throw money to MS to have some sort of an exclusive arrangement. Heck even freeware apps like NOD32 and AVG were up to code before MS partners like Trend Micro released Vista compatible antivirus suites. Is it that they knew someone who gave them Vista's secrets? Or do you think that Microsoft programmers are updating AVG and NOD32 for them? HARDLY! It's just that the people that the programmers have been diligent about making sure that users of their products can move over to the new platform seamlessly.

As PR mentioned, have you tried contacting your s/w vendor or the developer to find out how they are going to resolve the incompatibilities?

[HAL9000]

DSCHIEF, maybe you need to read Rule #2 of our Forum Rules. (http://forum.pcmech.com/rules.php) Even if meant as a joke, that comment was way out of place on this forum.

Flaming and Harassment
The moderator staff will not tolerate flaming, childish name-calling or other types of personal attacks on the forum. All members, as adults, are expected to be able to have civil discussions at all times, regardless of whether they agree or not. In the event a moderator steps into a thread to stop flaming, all members are expected to stop. Harrassment is not allowed on the boards. Harassment can constitute any direct threat on a member, posting personal info about a member, posting any pictures of a member, etc. We don't care if a user's personal info can be found out through some other medium or another website. It will NOT be posted here. Stay out of people's personal lives. Any personal grudges against any other member are to be left at the door. Any conflict from outside of this forum which is brought into the forums will be handled swiftly and with a vengenance.

-Moderator-

[faulkner132]

Not true. You can still get XP on Dell's. You just have to order them under small business.
You have to provide Dell with a valid Tax ID number (EIN) when ordering through small business, otherwise they might reject your order.

[hitchface]

Statica: thanks for the clarification. Yes, s/w vendors have been contacted. Symantec claims that pcAnywhere 12.1 works with Vista, as expected. Even still, as impressed as I recently became with the co-ordination you were talking about, it still seems a little too flawed. Should we just accept that every new O/S will be released with a bunch of problems, or should we be looking for a higher standard? It doesn't seem right to just carry on in the same old direction.

PR: my posts on this issue aren't ALL over PCM if they are in only 2 threads. And yeah, I know that it is my fault that I didn't find out about Dell's XP machines. I checked s/w vendor's websites as necessary, the transition looked to be smooth, so I took the opportunity. NOW I have a Vista loaded machine that doesn't run the stuff it was supposed to. If both ends are saying "It's his fault!", what good is it to me? My rant? Vista isn't ready because the software for it isn't ready either. If we could please stop calling me an ignorant buyer when I did all that I felt was in my power, I'd like that. From my chair, the ONLY option was to get a new laptop. HAD to be done, so I did it.

[Pride]

Statica: thanks for the clarification. Yes, s/w vendors have been contacted. Symantec claims that pcAnywhere 12.1 works with Vista, as expected. Even still, as impressed as I recently became with the co-ordination you were talking about, it still seems a little too flawed. Should we just accept that every new O/S will be released with a bunch of problems, or should we be looking for a higher standard? It doesn't seem right to just carry on in the same old direction.




If they say it works then it DOES work. You are just having personal issues.



LOL i used to live in Battle Creek i moved to Florida about a year ago. But my grandpa just took a Vacation fron 80-85º Florida and went to michigan LOL his calls are hilarious not only that but only 2 or 3 days in michigan and he catches a gold.

[Statica]

Statica: thanks for the clarification. Yes, s/w vendors have been contacted. Symantec claims that pcAnywhere 12.1 works with Vista, as expected. Even still, as impressed as I recently became with the co-ordination you were talking about, it still seems a little too flawed. Should we just accept that every new O/S will be released with a bunch of problems, or should we be looking for a higher standard? It doesn't seem right to just carry on in the same old direction.


Look there are 3 options you can go about resolution of stability problems:
FIRST OPTION: Dont go for something that's bleeding edge. If you cannot deal with growing issues then stay away from the latest versions of ANYTHING .. be it hardware or software. Stay away from the latest hardware on your production system because they are bound to have revisions to correct issues. Stay away from brand new software versions .. be it an operating system .. or just something as common as an accounting software.
SECOND OPTION: Stay with a platform that is pretty much as closed source as possible. For example a Mac. Nearly everything will work for the Mac because Apple just needs to test on ONE set of hardware parameters. Be prepared to spend a fortune on your computing!
or
THIRD OPTION: Do your due diligence. If you are going to select bleeding edge solutions on your-way-hardware then be prepared to do your homework before you get started and be prepared to embark on a learning curve. I've said it before with Linux-ers coming to Alt-OS saying how crappy the platform is - just because you've used a computer before doesn't mean you know everything about it. A person new to the Linux world needs to spend some time understanding it and learning it before passing a judgment. Same with Vista, just because it's got the word "Windows" in it's name doesn't mean that you know everything about it. Spend sometime doing your homework, on what's changed .. and what's remained the same. Find out what works for it and what doesn't before you jump into it.

Keep in mind that every software has a compatibility set written on it .. in fact it should be the first thing you should be looking at when buying software.

With all due respect to your doing your homework before choosing the Vista platform. I have a hard time taking your rants seriously at all. At no point in this thread have you pointed out that pcAnywhere 12.1 is in <FONT COLOR="red">beta</font>! The current stable release for pcAnywhere is 12.0. The system requirements for pcAnywhere 12.0 is http://www.symantec.com/home_homeoffice/products/sysreq.jsp?pcid=pf&pvid=pca12
pcAnywhere 12.1 - the Vista compatible one that you keep alluding to - is in beta as in NOT COMPLETE ,.. as in MAY HAVE BUGS .. use at your discretion!

So now you've come on and posted a whole lot about Vista not working right, and presented your opinion without a complete representation of the facts. Unfortunately, this happens way too often on the internet, where opinions sound louder than most facts.

Should OS manufacturers be held to a high standard? Of course, but no higher than any other s/w manufacturer that sits on your system. The platform developers establish a set of rules and subsequent safeguards by which the program will run by - sometimes these rules can be violated, the onus now is on the OS mfger to correct those rules by establishing stringent safeguards. Sometimes 3rd party s/w break the rules or do something that compromises other rules. It is now on the s/w maker to patch it out.

Finally, we're talking about Symantec here .. personally I'd be shocked even if their gold versions worked as their supposed to on 7 year old platforms.

[mairving]

You have to provide Dell with a valid Tax ID number (EIN) when ordering through small business, otherwise they might reject your order.
Only if you don't pay sales tax. I have ordered from them before and they have never asked me to validate any company.

[HAL9000]

After reading this thread over again.. I think enuf has been said... thread closed.