Upgrading From Athlon AMD 64 to Athlon AMD X2???

[jgilbreath04]

Ok right know im stuck with a problem like many others AMD 939 socket users are, upgrade or start fresh with a new system.

I am wanting to find some benchmarking differences between my current Athlon 64 3200 versus the AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400.

Main thing I am wanting to know is that if the $200 upgrade is worth it or just suck it up and wait for a while longer to rebuilld a new system.

Thanks again,
Josh

[The_YongGrand]

The difference won't be too significant, but in terms of multithreaded software and heavy multitasking, the X2 4200 will be much better. I have transitioned from P4 3.0GHz to a X2 3800 and there's a huge difference in terms of multithreaded software and multitasks. The best thing is, virus-scan and doing heavy internet without lockups and slowdowns. Newer games might like dual-core too, so it's worth an upgrade. :D

[audiophile]

I've decided to do the same upgrade, hoping to squeeze a couple more years out of my system (in addition to adding 2GB of RAM and a new video card) -- newegg has this processor for only $139:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103045

You can also get $25 off the price of a Rosewill RCX-Z2-EX 92mm 2 Ball PWM CPU Cooler - Retail by getting their combo package and still come in way less than $200.
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[TwoRails]

For "only" $140, I'd go for it. I do home movie editing on occasion and found a big difference going to an X2. It's great being able to crunch a movie and still be able to use the computer for email, surfing, etc... I'd go for the retail version, though, so you get the 3 year warranty.

[Freakitchen]

The jump is certainly noticeable - I did exactly the same upgrade in August last year and don't regret it. Be certain, though, to achieve 'balance' in your upgrade. The processor upgrade might not give you what you're looking for if your RAM is still lacking - I went from 1 to 2GB at the same time as upgrading my processor.

Also think about what you're upgrading for. If it's for increased 'general' performance (multi-tasking), then a CPU and RAM upgrade is good. If, on the other hand, increased gaming performance is desired, then a RAM and Video Card upgrade would be better.

If you decide you want an upgrade in all three areas, then your money might be better spent on a completely new build.

[Alaron]

I have to agree with FK. I made the same upgrade as well last year (tells you how popular the 3200+ really was). I did it along with a RAM upgrade (to 2GB) for a general purpose upgrade. I'm glad I did it. The performance is noticably better for multi-tasking, especially for video editing. Bottom line, it is a solid way to breathe some life into an otherwise aging machine. It will keep you going for at least long enough to save up for a full system.

[jgilbreath04]

Well thanks for the input guys really appreciate it. Yes I will definatley get the Toledo now, but I'm going to have to put that on the back burner for about a month, just took the plunge and bought an 8800GTX OC 768MB BFG so it will take a little recovery time to get the proccessor now. I have already been running CORSAIR XMS 2GB (2 x 1GB) DDR 400 PC 3200 for a long while hehe, biggest part was that I need to to replace my significanlly aged duel 6600GT SLI video card setup, fair compromise I suppose. =)

Thanks again,
Josh

p.s. Just wish the 939 socket wasn't saying goodbye, there is such a minute physical difference between it and the X2 it seems silly to me, but what can you do =\

[kmillerusaf]

4400+ Toledo Retail can be found @ zipzoomfly for $208; this is the only place out of newegg, mwave, and zipzoom that have the retail version if you are looking for the stock HSF and warranty.

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80726-1

I am kind of in the same boat with this 3700+ single core processor. It has done fine with gaming and I just upraded my ram to 2gb 2 months ago and planned on moving up from this video card to the 8800GTS 320mb in late August. However where this computer lacks is definitely multitasking.. trying to game and listen to music can sometimes cause havoc on FPS and general gameplay. Or trying to run a virus scan and browse the internet yields the same effects. I am seriously thinking of upgrading the processor on this computer to hold off building another computer until maybe fall or early winter this year.

Great suggestions as usual guys

Edit: Stupid me... I just noticed it's out of stock @ zipzoom. Sorry :(

[audiophile]

The availablity (or lack thereof) of the retail 4400+ Toledo is the reason I feel compelled to go with the OEM version offered at newegg. Even the OEM version's availability seems to be spotty at best -- it's been in and out of stock at newegg recently. I'm afraid if I wait, I'll miss the boat on the last of the faster socket 939 dual core chips.

Should I be concerned about this? I suppose if I go ahead and buy the OEM and find a retail version in the meantime, I can always return the OEM (within 7 days). Would that be unethical or just a smart thing to do?
_________________________

Lian-Li PC-V1000
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Sound Blaster Audigy2 ZS Platinum
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ViewSonic VX900 19" LCD

[Alaron]

The 4400+ is getting increasing difficult to find because AMD halted production of 939 chips. So anyone contemplating an upgrade should do so sooner rather then later.

That being said, check out the Opteron 175. It is the exact same chip, and is much easier to find, even in Retail. Just double check your motherboard manufacturer's website for compatibility because it may require a BIOS update.

[kmillerusaf]

How about the Operton 185 Denmark? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103002

It's socket 939 but my motherboard is the A8N-SLI Premium and the site's specs only list Athlon 64FX, Athlong 64 Athlong 64 X2, & Sempron... I guess that means no? http://usa.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=3&l2=15&l3=148&l4=0&model=539&modelmenu=2

[audiophile]

Alaron -

My MSI motherboard will support the Opteron 170 as well as the X2 4400+ Toledo.

Questions (these are not fecicious - I'm being a sincere noob):

If they're the same chip, why is:

1) the Opteron's core named "Denmark"?
2) the Opteron clocked at 2.0GHz, while the X2 4400+ is 2.2GHz?
3) the Opteron's HT System Bus clocked at 1GHz, while the X2 4400+ is 2GHz?

Are we looking at the same Opteron 170?

[Alaron]

See my edit, I meant the Opty 175. That clears up the Ghz mismatch. The core has a different name because it is the Opteron line, not the Athlon line. Opterons are designed for servers, but they still work in desktop boards. The Opteron and Athlon both have the same HT at 2000Mhz. I think Newegg forgot to doublepump it, (2x1000=2000).


kmiller, if you dig into Asus' website for the CPU support page: http://support.asus.com/cpusupport/cpusupport.aspx?SLanguage=en-us you'll find that the A8N-SLI Premium supports the range of Opterons, from the 144 to the 185.

[kmillerusaf]

Alaron, that's my fault for not editing my post, I found the CPU support page after a little more searching. Now I need to decide between the range of 4*00+'s or the Operton 185 which was proposed.

[audiophile]

Alaron -

Ya know, I'm thinkin that since my mobo will support up to a Opty 180, I might as well go for that. It'll be the last/max upgrade I can take without a completely new system and it's only another ~$50. I'll also get another 2GB of RAM and a new video card. Does this make sense or am I misguided?
________________________

Lian-Li PC-V1000
Power & Cooling Turbo-Cool 510 SLI
MSI K8N Neo4 Platinum SLI
Athlon64 3500+ Newcastle
1GB Corsair Value Select DDR400 PC3200
eVGA nVIDIA GeForce 6800 GT, 256MB, PCI-E
Western Digital 74GB Raptor SATA
Seagate 200GB 7200 RPM SATA
Windows XP Pro w/SP2

Sound Blaster Audigy2 ZS Platinum
SONY DRU-700A Double Layer/DVD+/-RW Drive
ViewSonic VX900 19" LCD
Klipsch ProMedia Ultra 5.1 Speakers

[Alaron]

Sounds like a great idea to me. :)


Didn't mean to take over your thread jgil.

[kmillerusaf]

I apologize as well. I have a bad habit of doing that but I don't think about things like this until someone mentions it and then all of these ideas come rushing through my head and I figure if my situation is the same, no need to post in a different thread but this was your thread jgil... Sorry again :D Hope everything works out for all who plan to upgrade their 939s!

K Mills

[kmillerusaf]

[QUOTE=Alaron] The Opteron and Athlon both have the same HT at 2000Mhz. I think Newegg forgot to doublepump it, (2x1000=2000).


I am still not sure about this comment Alaron because not only does newegg.com say it but so does AMD's website http://www.amdcompare.com/us-en/opteron/details.aspx?opn=OSA175CDBOX

Tell me what you think...

[TwoRails]

That would be the clock speed, then you use DDR (x2) to get 2000.

7. At what clock speeds does HyperTransport technology operate?
HyperTransport technology devices are designed to operate at multiple clock speeds from 200MHz up to 2.6 GHz, and utilize double data rate (DDR) technology transferring two bits of data per clock cycle, for an effective transfer rate of up to 5.2 Gigatransfers/sec in each direction. Since transfers can occur in both directions simultaneously, aggregate transfer rates of 20.8 Gigabytes/second and 41.6 Gigabytes/second can be achieved with 16-bit wide and 32-bit wide link configurations respectively. To allow for system design optimization, the clock speed of the receive and transmit links may be set at different rates.

Taken from:

http://www.hypertransport.org/tech/tech_faqs.cfm

[kmillerusaf]

I copy that, but newegg and amd are confusing me by putting 1000 mhz (opterons) on some pages and 2000 mhz on the other pages (x2 dual cores).. Why would both of them do it that way? Obviously there is something we are missing.

[Alaron]

While I agree that AMD doesn't do the best job explaining things, they are identical cores with the same HT. The key is the bandwidth provided by that bus. The Athlon 64 X2 has 8GBps available on the HT bus, and the Opteron 1xx chips have 8GBps available. Note that while it mentions the Opterons having up to 3 HT links, there is only one on the Opty 1xx.

You can compare the Architectural briefs to see that. Opteron: http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_8796_8805,00.html
X2: http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_9485_13041%5E13043,00.html

You can also see in this brief that AMD lists the HT frequency for the Athlon 64 X2 as 1000Mhz. Pg87: http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_papers_and_tech_docs/30430.pdf

[jgilbreath04]

o dont even worry about it more power, a lot of good things have been discussed,

I do have somthing more to throw into the mix, I was searching around and saw that AMD actually produced a 939 FX X2... this thing would cook!

AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core FX-60 (2.6GHz) Socket 939

That is if you have a 1k just sitting around, you can find these guys on google pretty easy.

Wish they didn't wont half of my soul for a hunk of metal and melted sand...

[minsonngo]

What motherboard do you have?


Just make sure the BIOS version will support the new CPU... otherwise you may need to update the BIOS version before you install the new CPU.

[jgilbreath04]

Asus A8N-SLI Premium

Although I dont plan on getting that bad boy in the near future... unless your little red ducky will be my sugar daddy?!?!?

[minsonngo]

Here is the CPU support list... just for future reference:

http://support.asus.com/cpusupport/cpusupport.aspx?SLanguage=en-us&model=A8N-SLI%20Premium

[BeepBeep2]

I have a 5600+@2.8Ghz on an AM2 mobo, but id recommend anything between a 4200+ to a 4800+ for your situation.

[kmillerusaf]

Or the Opteron's (175 especially) which is cheaper and more prevalent in "retail" than the 4*00+ series... Like Alaron suggested

[BeepBeep2]

yeah forget what i said and go with that opty

[jgilbreath04]

ive never really used the opteron processors, anything I really need to know?

[Alaron]

Nope, your board supports them. So as long as your BIOS is up to date, just pop it in and go. :)

[jgilbreath04]

awsome thats what I already figured but just thought that I would ask ;)

[jgilbreath04]

just to let eveyone know I decided to go ahead and upgrade and I made the choice of going with the Opteron 185. I do a lot a gaming and a lot of video processing and editing. It should be here on Wensday so I'll check back in to tell you how the pop in upgrade goes.

[jgilbreath04]

Well after taking more of a second to think and reanalyze I relized a few things.

Ok first of all I know I need to upgrade my Bios. The question is though does this have to be done from a A: drive, or can I use a Flash drive to do this to boot from?

[BeepBeep2]

you should use a floppy, and some mobo manufactuers let you flash from windows (the stupid proof way:D)

as i have been told:(.......edit your posts> dont make new ones

[LeftyAce]

The 'from windows' method uses the ASUS utility that can be found on your motherboard CD. If you don't have the cd, check ASUS's website; it should be a free download.

If you want to do it the 'proper' way with a floppy, you can probably yank a floppy out of another computer temporarily to perform the flash. Or purchase one, they're pretty cheap at this point.

*EDIT* This should do the trick: http://www.softpedia.com/get/Tweak/System-Tweak/ASUS-Update-Utility.shtml

And here's instructions: http://support.asus.com/technicaldocuments/technicaldocuments_content.aspx?no=714&SLanguage=en-us

[jgilbreath04]

Lefty thats just perfect! Just the exact thing I was looking for! Thanks a ton this is trully appreciated!

[audiophile]

Whew!

After further research and some nerve-wracking tinkering, my system finally recognizes both cores. Turns out I did need a bios update after all. Thanks everyone for the advice, information and moral support! :D

_________________________________

Lian-Li PC-V1000
Power & Cooling Turbo-Cool 510 SLI
MSI K8N Neo4 Platinum SLI
AMD Opteron 180 Denmark
Corsair Value Select DDR400 PC3200
eVGA nVIDIA GeForce 6800 GT, 256MB, PCI-E
Western Digital 74GB Raptor SATA
Seagate 200GB 7200 RPM SATA
Windows XP Pro w/SP2

Sound Blaster Audigy2 ZS Platinum
SONY DRU-700A Double Layer/DVD+/-RW Drive
ViewSonic VX900 19" LCD
Klipsch ProMedia Ultra 5.1 Speakers

[LeftyAce]

Glad you got it working. Enjoy the new processor!

[jgilbreath04]

Just to let eveyone know that was curious, the Asus Updater worked like a charm... somewhat...

The instillation and the BIOS flash went just fine couldn't ask for better. Although I did have to download the BIOS from Asus and us the "Update from File" instead "Update from Internet." Everytime that I tried updating from interent there was always an error message saying "To many people on FTP Server. Try again later."

But besides that I would definatley suggest using this program if you are a Asus MB user, very quick and painless. I would also suggest this to anyone that hasn't updated there BIOS in a while. Before the update using Asus N.O.S I couldn't overclock the system more than the 3%. After the BIOS update I can take the N.O.S. all the way up to 10% overclocking, (putting my processor at 2.2 from 2.0 very stable and only a couple degrees hotter) the jump must have been a good one. Also fixed some other minor bugs like showing how many GB my HD where instead of KB.

Anywho, thanks for all the help guys and hopefully proc installation goes as easy tomarrow as BIOS did last night.

[jgilbreath04]

Ok, well I got in the Opteron 185 yesterday and got everything set up and poped it in, and before I could realize it the thing was installed and running just fine. (well more than fine). Well my 3dMark06 score went from 5760, to 9680... talk about a huge jump. Thats running Opteron 185, 8800GTX BFG OC, 2 Gigs Corsair XMS Pro Series, WD 150 Gig Raptor, Samsung 22" Widescreen 226BW. The coolest thing about it was when I went to uploud my scores to 3DMark06, I was ranked #1 in my Compartive class for pc optimization and performance!!!! How cool is that! Right now im using the Asus N.O.S. Overclocking and am running it at 5%, which puts the processor running at 2.73 stable and at the same relative temp it was running at stock (which is 39-40c). Under load it it running at about 43-44.

My next question is now since im not getting all that get temps with the heatsink I have on right now, the Thermaltake Volvcano Extreme; should I try the Opteron heatsink that came with the cpu because I have heard many people say really good things about them. Or would it not bring my temps down any?

[kmillerusaf]

Hard to say without testing it... Just make sure you are wiping off the residue and putting a new coat of thermal grease on there when removing and installing the heatsinks

[jgilbreath04]

Yeah I definatly made sure to do that when installing the new cpu, and reinstalling the heatsink. Well I guess I might try it, but its suck a pain, and its not really getting all that warm. After I have done some reading the temps im getting really are not all that hot. I think i'll be happy with what I have and stick with the Thermaltake.

[kmillerusaf]

Those temps aren't bad at all. It also depends on the ambient temperature of your room so if it's hot/cold in your room, the case is going to be hot/cold and will in turn make the rest of your components hot/cold. I think those temps are fine though unless you just want to experiment.