Airline Travel

[SARGE]

Have been on 6 airline trips in past 4 years and still can't stand it. Of course many moons ago I was aloft so it's not like it's my first go-around. I still get the hoochies waiting and during the flight, especially the take-off and landing. Put the plane in solid clouds for an hour and watch me come unglued. Docs say "no sweat, they got radar". There is something very unnatural about travelling in a vacuumed piece of metal at 40k feet going 600 mph while dodging an already crowded airspace. No room for an "oops" in that atmosphere. Since I seem to always get a window seat, I stare alot. I see many other planes zooming past going the opposite direction and when pointing that out they say, "don't look out the window". Geez. Am wondering if others have this feeling of dread each time they get on a plane, or if you've gotten so used to a sense of security it doesn't matter.

[juppy]

I've never even been on a plane myself, Sarge, but if I have any say in the matter, I'll be happy to keep it that way. I've always heard air travel is actually safer than car travel is, but that doesn't make me feel much better about doing it. My brother flew once about 10 years ago and he loved it. Said it was really smooth and a great way to travel. Then again, this is the guy that used to stand up on the seat of his motorcycle and act like he was surfing while riding it down the street, so I don't know that his brain actually takes into account the possibility of wrecking or being hurt in an accident. :D

[Panama Red]

Not dread for me but definitely some apprehension. Had an engine burst into flames on a C7A Caribou (http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/museums/getimage.htm?id=1713) right after takeoff many years ago. The pilots did a great job turning around as we were headed out over the harbor and managed to put her back on the landing mat. Ever since then I get antsy once I'm strapped in. Takeoffs and landings are the worse but we had a flight last year to Puerto Rico that was the scariest. Flew out of Newark, NJ and had to fly thru a huge thunderstorm. Our seats were at the very back and I felt like I was on a carnival ride for about an hour. I've never heard metal "groan" like that. All the flight attendants were strapped in and all the seats were full. No one made a sound until we were out of that storm. Those kind of trips aren't fun but statistically you're still better off than in a car.

[RJ]

I flew alot and I really love it. I don't feel any dread when boarding a plane, or when I actually see other planes when I look out the window. It's a very safe way of traveling.
Every flight is controlled by air traffic controllers on the ground, they make sure planes don't come too close to each other. And if they do, the pilots see the plane on their screens on the flight deck and get evasive commands to avoid a hit.

Before the glass cockpit, this was not possible, the pilots couldn't see other planes (as there were no monitors on the flight deck), only the ATC could.
But nowadays, the pilots are more aware of where other traffic is, which increases safety for the flight.

Even small airplanes (like piston-engine driven Pipers or Cessnas) use transponders, so they also appear on both ATC radar screens and the jet pilot's navigation display on the flight deck.

So don't worry, you can feel safe on a plane and enjoy the flight :)

RJ

[Jester]

nothing to enjoy just sitting there with no control...i am in the airforce and i hate flying...:confused:

[mbossman2]

sarge,

1) if you don't like window seats tell the lady at the desk and see if she can switch you (9 times out of 10 they can). first row and last couple of rows minimize that watching planes go by.

2) distraction - get something to distract you and take your mind off what you are doing: iPod, portable DVD player, books, magazines, laptop, etc. It helps make the time pass so much faster. I prefer things with headphones as it drowns out the airplane noise.

3) flight time: if you can sleep while sitting, take late night/overnight flights and buy a neck pillow (they actually do work) and sleep your way thru the flight (especially good when going west to east)

4) when all else fails: a little chemical assistance might be in order. ask your doctor for something light. or, of course, you can self medicate: if prefer beer, but wine, bourbon, whiskey and vodka (all mixed with something - don't want to be drunk) all work well.

I am not a big fan of flying: it wipes me out BUT as i travel 2x a month or so for work, me and my frequent flyer card are good buddies. I prefer #4 on the return leg and #2 on the outbound leg (if you do the movie thing, go PG-13 or less, you never know what little eyes may be behind or next to you)

[glfredrick]

I like flying, and am one of the weird ones that wishes I had my pilot's license.

About hitting another plane in the air? Not very likely, made-for-television-movies aside... In all the crashes reported, seldom is one due to hitting another plane in the air. Most are equipment malfunctions during takeoff, or in the case of the DC10, engines that tend to fall off in mid-flight. ;) They sort of have that issue figured out, however.

What I like best is stepping onto a plane here and stepping off there in a matter of hours, versus days of travel time.

Window seats? I love them. I like to see.

What I dislike most is the lack of non-stop flights these days, due to traffic routing, etc. Way too much time spent in running from end to end in some airport somewhere in a city that is rarely your destination anyway.

[RevCLB]

I like to sit just far enough back of the wing so I can watch the flaps adjust.

[glc]

I was a Navy aircrewman for over 20 years, I have over 5000 flight hours in the P-3 Orion. I love flying, but I hate commercial airliners. There is absolutely no fear factor, I totally trust airplanes. It's a comfort issue - I hate being cooped up in an uncomfortable seat in a cattle car. I'm used to being able to get up and do what I want during flight and having room to walk around. To put it in perspective, in a P-3 you only share space with 4 to 20 people depending on the mission. A P-3 is a converted Electra turboprop which in airline configuration has over 100 seats.

[kram 2.0]

To tell you honestly, I love flying commercial rather than driving for a prolonged period of time. I simply cannot stand the boredom of driving more than a few hours from point A to point B when, quite frankly, I could hop onto a B737 that gets me to point B much faster. There is no/very little room for error, as you pointed out - but keep in mind that the amount of experience and training that the commercial pilots have. Certainly they are human and can make mistakes - but to me, the risks are far far less.

kram

[HAL9000]

I totally love flying, you can't beat it for long distances.

[mbossman2]

for anything less than 1-2 hours flying time, I prefer to drive. It eats up just as much time as flying (to the airport, standing in line in security, on the plane, off the plane, out the door, to the cab stand or car rental joint and then to the hotel/office) anything beyond that the plane makes sense.

[doubledragon5]

For yrs I refused to fly, I use to drive where ever I went.. Back in 04 was the first time I flew and loved it.. Take off was kind of iffy, but when we got to cruising altitude 40,000ft I felt like all my problems were gone, cause they were down on the ground and I was up in the air.. We had one flight from OK to Conn that was not so good.. The air plane while making its final approach had to quickly head back up in the sky and everyone was holding tight on to their seats.. The pilot never said why happened and we never asked...

[Lespaul20]

I flew for the first time last summer on my trip to Greece and loved almost every minute of it.
Unlike a lot of people here the takeoff/landing where they most exciting part. I got a little nervous on a few; particularity landing in Athens during a side trip. I guess the winds were gusting around 30-40 knot on the ground, it was bumpy and we came in really fast.
I know how it's feels to spend 9 hours in a tiny cramped seats, hated that. Lucky on the way back our airline overbooked and we got bumped to business class.

I've been in awe of planes ever since.

[doubledragon5]

The closest I've gotten to first class was one row behind the curtian:)..

[Force Flow]

I haven't flown since before 9/11...I'm curious as to how much airport security has actually changed since then and now several years after the fact (and I don't mean all the sensationalist horror stories...I've heard and read about my fair share).

[edfair]

I finished the third in 4 days today into LAX fron San Jose. Boy have we had some baggage screwups this time and I won't describe the transfer outbound in LAX between terminals with 45 minutes from recovering bags from airtran to boarding american eagle on a far out terminal reached by bus.
The P3 should have been like luxury GLD. You should have been in sooner and enjoyed the luxury on the P-2V or even the PBY. But that tells you when I was in.

Generally no issue with the clouds anymore, Sarge. You crank the figures in and the plane goes there. At the L1011 timeframe they were qualified for zero-zero totally automated. The pilots monitored the system.

[glc]

I've got 3 years in the P-2. I still could get up and walk around the afterstation. The view in the bow was something else too. Against regs, but they let me make a takeoff and a landing up there once.

[doubledragon5]

The last time my wife flew with my oldest daughter, she went through a double security check, because she had on a baggy sweatshirt...

[edfair]

Came out of Salt Lake City several years ago. Made some remark about the Neutron analysis for explosives test and got one shakedown from TSA. Had plastic pipe with endcaps on from wife's CDC presentation in the bag and got to explain it to TSA in detail, then was selected for a third, really close exam, at the gate. That was another experience I won't try to repeat.

Put a Gateway power book in checked baggage, along with the power pack, a modem, modem power pack, and cables and got the luggage checked both ways. Wish the TSA guys would learn to repack. What a mess.

[David M]

Love flying, hate the big security hassles on the ground and being trapped in a tiny space next to a stranger for hours. Always thought they should put urinal type partitions between the seats so you get SOME semblance of privacy...yeah I know its impractical...just an idea.

By the way, the commercial jets don't have radar onboard for avoiding collision. That's the job of ATC.

[RJ]

By the way, the commercial jets don't have radar onboard for avoiding collision.

They do. The so-called TCAS (traffic collision avoidance system) displays every aircraft equipped with a transponder (that's all airliners, all IFR flights, and many VFR flights) within a certain range on the display on the flight deck.
The pilots can see other aircrafts. And if they come close, the pilots first get Traffic Advisory (to get alerted that an aircraft is coming close), and if they come too close, they get a Resolution advisory (one aircraft has to climb, the other one has to descend).

That's the job of ATC.

It is. But if ATC fails, you got TCAS to avoid the crash. A TCAS RA must be followed, it overrides ATC. Once you get a "clear of conflict" information from the TCAS system you go back to your original route and inform ATC.

Here some info about TCAS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_Collision_Avoidance_System
http://www.eu-flysafe.org/Project/Aviation-Hazards/Air-Traffic/current-systems.html
http://www.skyaid.org/Skycar/TCAS.htm

RJ

[Disgrace]

Flying by plane is a lot safer than driving. But you have to look at it like nuclear energy. (Not going political here, folks.)

Nuclear energy is proven to be extremely safe but it's the rare disasters you hear on the news which make everybody panic. It's the same with air travel. There's FAR less accidents but when there are any, they're a lot more dramatic and are all over the news and people get the wrong idea. Personally, apart from being like a chicken in a hen house, I don't mind flying too much but i'm no fan of taking off.

[David M]

They do. The so-called TCAS (traffic collision avoidance system) displays every aircraft equipped with a transponder (that's all airliners, all IFR flights, and many VFR flights) within a certain range on the display on the flight deck.
The pilots can see other aircrafts. And if they come close, the pilots first get Traffic Advisory (to get alerted that an aircraft is coming close), and if they come too close, they get a Resolution advisory (one aircraft has to climb, the other one has to descend).



It is. But if ATC fails, you got TCAS to avoid the crash. A TCAS RA must be followed, it overrides ATC. Once you get a "clear of conflict" information from the TCAS system you go back to your original route and inform ATC.

Here some info about TCAS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_Collision_Avoidance_System
http://www.eu-flysafe.org/Project/Aviation-Hazards/Air-Traffic/current-systems.html
http://www.skyaid.org/Skycar/TCAS.htm

RJ

I said radar.. A transponder is not a radar.

This is an aircraft radar: http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-detail-radar-02.htm

This is a transponder: http://www.avionix.com/xpndr.html

If you can show me a navigation/anti-collision (not a weather doppler radar) under the nose cone of a standard commercial passenger aircraft then I stand corrected.

[glc]

Well, it sort of is, transponders do use radar beams to interrogate and send returns. If you are saying that the TCAS information is not displayed on the cockpit weather radar display, you are correct. It has its own display or can be integrated into the navigation display.

[David M]

Well, it sort of is, transponders do use radar beams to interrogate and send returns. If you are saying that the TCAS information is not displayed on the cockpit weather radar display, you are correct. It has its own display or can be integrated into the navigation display.

In my experience a radar is a very directional beam that sweeps a given area. Radio waves at marine radar frequencies are generally either 10cm or 3cm and are reflected off objects and return to the antenna...painting a picture on a screen that shows whats ahead and to the side...as far as 360 degrees for ships radar. Military aircraft have a smaller arc phased array radar which points mostly ahead and to the side some for obvious aerodynamic reasons unless it is an AWACS type aircraft.

A transceiver is much simpler in that it does not need to operate at radar frequencies and all it does is send out signal with position, altitude, speed etc data which stimulates a transceiver to send a signal back with its relevant data.....this is very different technology and by definition of a radar....is not a radar.

Transceivers are on commercial vessels and are used for vessels identification and collision avoidance as well...called AIS (equivalent to IFF on military jets)

On military jets, the radar is not called the transceivers and the transceivers are not called the radar. They are two different things.

What you speak of is a type of CAS or Collison Avoidance System and so is RADAR a type of CAS...but they are not the same thing.

Sarge asked about radar on a commercial aircraft and the answer is no....there is no radar as defined by what a radar is.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transceiver

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Identification_System

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/e3awacs/

[Floppyman]

I'm also a big fan of flying -- even hope to start working on my private pilot's license in a year or so. I can deal with car trips, but if it's going to be longer than 3hrs I'd much rather fly. Having just come back from an 1100 mile roadtrip, once thing became clear to me -- there are way too many inconsiderate drivers on the road. No thanks, I'll fly instead.:)

[edfair]

If you can think of a boat as a hole in the water into which you throw money it might not come as too much of a shock to think of an airplane as a hole in the sky into which you will throw even more money.

Nothing like having the maintenance chief tell you that there are some little things wrong with your airplane that will cost 39,000 to fix. Fortunately he signed off on a lot of work I did, instaed of having his crew do it. This was on a Grumman Tiger worth maybe 25,000 to start with.

[glfredrick]

I haven't flown since before 9/11...I'm curious as to how much airport security has actually changed since then and now several years after the fact (and I don't mean all the sensationalist horror stories...I've heard and read about my fair share).

It isn't all that much different, they just pretend to be more thorough. :)

Basic differences are:

Your family can no longer pass the security checkpoint to see you off at the terminal -- only ticket holders get that far.

You pass through the metal detector, and stuff all your baggage and pocket goods through the x-ray.

You may be required to turn on your computer.

You will have to remove your shoes.

You may be subject to further inspections -- pat downs, check with a wand, checked with an explosive sniffer (and pray that you haven't worn those clothes while doing some informal target shooting or something...), and if they have some further suspicions, you may be escorted to another room for further checks, but it seldom gets that far.

What is scary to me is that they single out people like me for further checks on almost every flight, yet I see "internationals" of a particular persuasion pass right through with nary a glance. I'm a middle-aged white dude that is generally packing a Bible -- a terrorist, I'm sure -- I must fit some profile somewhere, but as far as I know, no one fitting my description has EVER caused a problem with a plane anywhere, especially when traveling with my cute little wife... Yet, I seem to get the special treatment.

[RJ]

I said radar.. A transponder is not a radar.

It's not a traditional radar that just sends out signals and processes the reflected signals, but there is a type of radar that works with transponders, namely the Secondary Survelliance Radar.
The traditional radar you're talking about is the Primary Radar.

Secondary (transponder-based) radar is state-of-the-art in aviation and is based on the transponder. ATC's radar screens all work with transponders, that's how information about altitude etc. is transmitted as well. If somebody turned off this transponder, he would not show on the ATC radar screen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_surveillance_radar

It's pretty much a question of definition. But whether you call it radar or not, the important thing is that the pilots do have a device which shows other aircrafts in the vicinity, their altitudes, and if they climb or descend, so they actually see the traffic on the navigation display, have a good situational awareness, and in case of a dangerous proximity they'll be warned and given advisory on how to avoid a collision.

RJ

[glfredrick]

I'd presume that one would actually have to work at hitting another plane while flying -- and it would be difficult work, akin to making jello stay nailed to a wall, perhaps.

Two moving objects -- traveling at 400-600 mph -- two (well four) persons steering, each trying to avoid the other. Touch to make them hit intentionally -- accidentally perhaps the chance is greater, sort of like running in front of an already moving bullet or something.

All in all, however, I'd think that being at 20,000 + feet is about the safest place on earth to be. Above lightening, most wind, clouds, rockets, hand-fired weapons, etc. It is only that couple of minutes when you are closest to the ground that is particularly dangerous, and that is also the most heavily watched and directed time.

[edfair]

Well, nobody steering. And it happens often enough to keep the ATC people in stress. They have alarms that sound off when the minimums are violated. Then they try to figure out how it happened and what they can do to not let it happen again.

[SARGE]

I made it back from Cozumel on Saturday by my lonesome, and will never fly again. A straight shot from Cozumel going north to Dallas, yet my own compass put us going west and wnw. Serious storms over Texas that day. The short time I could see anything besides clouds that literally enveloped the wings, the pilot was obviously trying to avoid a serious wall to our right (east). Unfortunately some surge caught the right wing and tilted us at a 45 degree angle. 2 barf bags later, another anxiety pill to compliment the first, an argument with the stewardess to return to my seat with seatbelt despite having gastro problems as a result, negates any further flying. As for flying being safer than a car, I have a measure of control behind the wheel and can always pull over if a problem arises. Although a fighter jet and pilot are built to recover from rollovers, ain't no commercial jet can withstand the recovery from such. Falling from 40k feet is not something I will ever worry about contending with again. There are other issues regarding my flying but the above should suffice.

[Lespaul20]

Sorry to hear of such a bad experience. Sound like that might have even scared me.

[HAL9000]

Sarge.. look at it this way... you have professionals with many hours of flight training and simulations and lots of hours behind their belts, written exams and medicals to pass... you might be able to have some control of yourself in the car... but just think of how relatively easy it is to get a drivers license and once you have it, there are no medicals, no upgrade training, no simulators, heck, how many out there without a license, how many drunk, how many stoned, how many just so damn incompetent that you wonder how they remember to breathe let alone manipulate a ton or so of vehicle through traffic... you have no control over those variables... the damage to your bug is proof of that.

[edfair]

Some days are like that, Sarge.

My week of travel ended with a ticketing issue. SO decided to stay in CA until Monday. Went to cheaptickets, told that they couldn't change the ticket, it would take Airtran to do it. Airtran bumped us back to cheap. Cheap told us what Airtran needed to do. Airtran did it. Cheap still couldn't change it, saying Airtran needed to do it. Finally got it sorted out at LAX as I was leaving, but wasted in excess of 10 hours of time on hold over 2 days. Flight was file but they went around the DFW weather.

[Litespeed]

A good read regarding this subject is Airframe by Michael Crichton

[pc master]

I am a huge fan of commercial aviation. There is a reason why commercial jets arent built to take rollovers. Due to the sheer size and weight of them, the wings would sheer off while rolling over.

My ultimate career is actually to be a commercial pilot. It is only when you take the time to setp back and look at how they work, that you realise how safe they really are. As HAL9000 has already said it is very easy to get a drivers liscence. Once you have it there are no proficiency tests. A commercial pilot with BA(example) has to take a proficiency exam every 6 months that simulates various disasters. If they dont pass, their liscence is revoked.


Also in every commercial aircraft they are various warnings that will sound if the plane is too low, too close to another plane(TCAS), engine problems. The list goes on.

[David M]

Actually commercial jets can safely rollover. Watch this video of a Boeing 707 being rolled.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVAYojHLbh4

Sarge, did your landings feel like any of these?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sldcahRFZKg&mode=related&search=

[pc master]

DNever knew that a 707 could rollover. Larger aircraft cant though(747, A380).

[HAL9000]

You would be surprized what can roll over. I was watching a show called Mayday and it involved a fully loaded cargo jet (don't remember which, but larger than a 707) where a pilot just going for the ride tried to take over the plane and while two crew members struggled with him, the pilot actually rolled the plane around to make it more difficult for the guy to fight.

In another episode, it had to do with a failed elevator.. now this was totally unintentional, but the pilots flew upside down for several minutes while trying to maintain control before the plane finally crashed into the ocean.

Given enough altitude to do it safely, I don't see why ANY aircraft can't roll over.

[Lespaul20]

I don't know if they rolled completely but it sounds like it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Airlines_Flight_006

The plane in fact had rolled over and was in a steep dive, losing 10,000 feet in twenty seconds and reaching abnormally high speeds. The crew and passengers experienced enormous forces, reaching as much as five g.

It did suffer some damage though.

[David M]

The only thing the airframe "knows" is the G forces and air speed it is "feeling"....if that makes sense. If you don't pull negative G's or too many positive G's or exceed the design speed then why wouldn't it be able to do a roll?

That famous photograph with the plane inverted pretty much illustrates the survivability of a roll with at least this commercial passenger jet...does it not?

[hitchface]

I'm also a big fan of flying -- even hope to start working on my private pilot's license in a year or so. I can deal with car trips, but if it's going to be longer than 3hrs I'd much rather fly. Having just come back from an 1100 mile roadtrip, once thing became clear to me -- there are way too many inconsiderate drivers on the road. No thanks, I'll fly instead.:)

I guess I'm a little late to the party on my favorite topic, but hey anyways!

Floppyman, you'll find that there are a number of inconsiderate pilots too. The good news is that there are far less of them. I had a situation just last winter where my wife and I went up in a C-172 to do a little sight seeing. We were headed back to the field, where a pre-private student was doing circuits to brush up on his procedures in prep for the next lesson, and we heard another 172 pilot (we think from the Calgary area, but not sure) enter the circuit the OPPOSITE direction. Now, forget the fact that he was planning on a downwind landing, he was on a direct, head on, same altitude collision course with the aforementioned student! The runway is only 3000' long, so a circuit there doesn't take long, even in a bug smasher like a 70s model 172. I immediately got on the horn and advised the pilot that there was another plane in the circuit (who was making clear radio calls the whole way) going the opposite direction. He didn't answer the 1st call, so I repeated myself. He finally caught on, exited and re-entered the circuit the proper way. We tried to follow his position reports so we could find him as we were coming in to land.

EDIT: I tried a diagram here, but it didn't work out too well...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_pattern

We were on downwind when he called base. Didn't see him there. We called base once we got there, assuming that he HAD to be on final by that point. Still wasn't there. We asked him where he was before we turned final...he reported DOWNWIND. Behind us. We caught sight of him as we turned final, and he was WAY close. We simply expedited our approach while he stated that he would back off for spacing. We ended up landing and rolling till we got to the closest taxiway and cleared the active pavement. Soon as we did, that guy came roaring by our tail on his overshoot. He tried again to land, this time almost on top of the student, and then he cleared the zone back west.

Sorry, I know that was long, but it goes to show that there are some bloody dumb decisions made from time to time. For instance, my wife and I could have avoided the situation by overshooting and staying airborne while he sorted himself out. I know that this didn't help those who don't like flying, but for every poor decision there are countless good ones.

FMan, you still excited about getting your private?

[glc]

Hitch - sounds like too many people these days - proper procedures are only for tests and check rides, the rest of the time I'll do whatever I damn well please and who cares about anyone else...........heaven forbid I'm delayed 30 seconds!

[hitchface]

No joke. This guy sounded pretty tired, which would explain quite a bit, including impatience and poor judgment.

Either way, it really is comforting to read and hear transcripts/recordings of pilot judgment. Most of the time, the right decisions are made. Every now and then you get that bad egg, and you can decipher what went wrong and when. I'm no commercial pilot (yet, anyways), and those guys have far more skill and decision making skills than I do. Makes me feel safer in the air. Like they say, its the amateurs you gotta worry about, right?