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Scotty
11-25-2001, 05:00 AM
I don't know about you but this 911 thing really POs me. I know if you are a paranoid or what ever you shouldn't be on the internet and all but is this just the begining of the total loss of the last remaining freedoms that we all hold?? I keep reading more and more every day of government snoop tools for "Terrorist activities" and it almost makes you afraid to go online.. I don't have any thing to hide and don't know anyone that does, but you just feel like a criminal anyway. I have seen our constitutional freedoms just going further and further away from our children every day and they don't even know it. I ask my children things that pertain to the constitution and they have NO clue what it is except a historical document!! This is a new one I read today here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1436-2001Nov22.html Anyway just had to rant a little. Enjoy your freedom while you still think you got it!! Hang in there fellow PCers Scotty

Kubie
11-25-2001, 12:02 PM
Gotta agree with you Scotty. When the Constitution was written and ratified, it corrected many short-comings of what the first Americans had fought against. I believe it pertains to Americans only and not to non-citizens. It makes me very angry that certain people like lawyers and media, think that the terrorists should be given the same protection the Constitution guarantees. Actually what the media wants is a circus and ratings. The country be damned.
Congress was smart enough to put a time limit on the new privacy laws though.
Sorry for rambling on.
Carl

LawyerRon
11-27-2001, 08:16 AM
Carl,
Constitutional protections apply to non-citizens too, provided they are in the U.S. If they are for instance overseas, the Constitution does not apply to them.

Quote:
"It makes me very angry that certain people like lawyers and media, think that the terrorists should be given the same protection the Constitution guarantees."

Carl, have you've been visiting Sarge's favorite websites?

Scotty
11-27-2001, 01:50 PM
Can you clearify to me the section that covers other people that are not "unto our posterity" ??? Just wondering! Scotty

Computer Hobbyist
11-27-2001, 02:31 PM
LawyerRon

What I find annoying is the absurd assertion that terrorists don't deserve normal constitutional protections because they are terrorists. Of course, THEY don't deserve them. No criminal deserves them. We extend constitutional rights to every body within our borders because WE deserve them.

CH

Scotty
11-27-2001, 03:03 PM
hmmmmm So our posterity means nothing according to the Constitution I guess... I believe that everyone in the US should have protections according to the constitution but only as a legal resident according to the LAWS??? Am I wrong or do we need a lawyer to translate it for us!! (not meaning anything if you are actually a lawyer, LawyerRon!)
And another thing!!!
Do we really need a national ID card to go along with our passport??????
Do we really have "rights" in America?????
Sorry bout the rant but too many friends and family died here and over seas to give up my "rights" as an "American" and not say or do anything...

LawyerRon
11-27-2001, 05:51 PM
Scotty,
Quote: “Can you clarify to me the section that covers other people that are not "unto our posterity" ???”

No, I can’t clarify that because I don’t know what that means. Lawyers don’t focus on that clause in Law School because the U.S. Supreme Court has chosen not to give it any weight.

What you’re referring to is the “text” of our Constitution. That is not necessarily our “law”. What Lawyers talk about is “Constitutional Law” which is basically “case law”. Case Law is the law. As Lawyers, the U.S. Supreme Court tells us what the law is by their holdings in cases interpreting the Constitution.

But your point is a very good one because many of us in the legal profession fear will be giving up certain rights.

Computer Hobbyist:
I agree with you entirely. To say “terrorists don’t deserve Constitutional protection” is really putting the horse before the cart. It ignores our “presumption of innocence” which is one of the foundations of our criminal justice system. Put another way, the murderer and rapist don’t “deserve” Constitutional protections but our law says they are entitled to them. The only way to support such a proposition would be to “deem” these individuals “terrorists” without due process, and while tempting and convenient, I don’t think we really want to go down that road.

Kubie
11-27-2001, 09:11 PM
Sorry Ron. I put ALL lawyers in the same class but I should have been more clear about which ones I was referring too. I've been watching to much of the news channels.:D
If the terrorists are protected within our borders, than I say AMEN to military tribunals on ships at sea outside of our borders.
Carl

azscary
11-27-2001, 09:32 PM
Here is the complete text minus the signatures. You tell me.

Constitution of the United States of America
Note: The following text is a transcription of the Constitution in its original form. Items in blue have since been amended or superseded.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Article. I.
Section. 1.
All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.
Section. 2.
The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.
No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.
Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. <./14th/14th.html> The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.
When vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies.
The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.
Section. 3.
The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, chosen by the Legislature thereof <./17th/17th.html> for six Years; and each Senator shall have one Vote.
Immediately after they shall be assembled in Consequence of the first Election, they shall be divided as equally as may be into three Classes. The Seats of the Senators of the first Class shall be vacated at the Expiration of the second Year, of the second Class at the Expiration of the fourth Year, and of the third Class at the Expiration of the sixth Year, so that one third may be chosen every second Year; and if Vacancies happen by Resignation, or otherwise, during the Recess of the Legislature of any State, the Executive thereof may make temporary Appointments until the next Meeting of the Legislature, which shall then fill such Vacancies <./17th/17th.html>.
No Person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen.
The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided.
The Senate shall chuse their other Officers, and also a President pro tempore, in the Absence of the Vice President, or when he shall exercise the Office of President of the United States.
The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.
Section. 4.
The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators.
The Congress shall assemble at least once in every Year, and such Meeting shall be on the first Monday in December, <./20th/20th.html> unless they shall by Law appoint a different Day.
Section. 5.
Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business; but a smaller Number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as each House may provide.
Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member.
Each House shall keep a Journal of its Proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such Parts as may in their Judgment require Secrecy; and the Yeas and Nays of the Members of either House on any question shall, at the Desire of one fifth of those Present, be entered on the Journal.
Neither House, during the Session of Congress, shall, without the Consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other Place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting.
Section. 6.
The Senators and Representatives shall receive a Compensation for their Services, to be ascertained by Law, and paid out of the Treasury of the United States. They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place.
No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States, which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been encreased during such time; and no Person holding any Office under the United States, shall be a Member of either House during his Continuance in Office.
Section. 7.
All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.
Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President of the United States: If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such Reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the Bill, it shall be sent, together with the Objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a Law. But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively. If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their Adjournment prevent its Return, in which Case it shall not be a Law.
Every Order, Resolution, or Vote to which the Concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of Adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the United States; and before the Same shall take Effect, shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by two thirds of the Senate and House of Representatives, according to the Rules and Limitations prescribed in the Case of a Bill.
Section. 8.
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
Section. 9.
The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.
The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.
No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.
No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken. <./16th/16th.html>
No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.
No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another; nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.
No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.
No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.
Section. 10.
No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress.
No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.


Article. II.
Section. 1.
The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same Term, be elected, as follows:
Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.
The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for President; and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President. But in chusing the President, the Votes shall be taken by States, the Representation from each State having one Vote; A quorum for this purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two thirds of the States, and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a Choice. In every Case, after the Choice of the President, the Person having the greatest Number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal Votes, the Senate shall chuse from them by Ballot the Vice President <./12th/12th.html>.
The Congress may determine the Time of chusing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States.
No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.
In Case of the Removal of the President from Office, or of his Death, Resignation, or Inability to discharge the Powers and Duties of the said Office, the Same shall devolve on the Vice President, and the Congress may by Law provide for the Case of Removal, Death, Resignation or Inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what Officer shall then act as President, and such Officer shall act accordingly, until the Disability be removed, or a President shall be elected <./25th/25th.html>.
The President shall, at stated Times, receive for his Services, a Compensation, which shall neither be increased nor diminished during the Period for which he shall have been elected, and he shall not receive within that Period any other Emolument from the United States, or any of them.
Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
Section. 2.
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.
He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.
The President shall have Power to fill up all Vacancies that may happen during the Recess of the Senate, by granting Commissions which shall expire at the End of their next Session.
Section. 3.
He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper; he shall receive Ambassadors and other public Ministers; he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed, and shall Commission all the Officers of the United States.
Section. 4.
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.


Article III.

Section. 1.
The judicial Power of the United States shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services a Compensation, which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office.
Section. 2.
The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;-- between a State and Citizens of another State <./11th/11th.html>;--between Citizens of different States;--between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.
In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.
The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed.
Section. 3.
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.


Article. IV.

Section. 1.
Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.
Section. 2.
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.
A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on Demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime.
No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due <./13th/13th.html>.
Section. 3.
New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.
The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.
Section. 4.
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence.


Article. V.

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.


Article. VI.

All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.


Article. VII.

The Ratification of the Conventions of nine States, shall be sufficient for the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the Same.
The Word, "the," being interlined between the seventh and eighth Lines of the first Page, the Word "Thirty" being partly written on an Erazure in the fifteenth Line of the first Page, The Words "is tried" being interlined between the thirty second and thirty third Lines of the first Page and the Word "the" being interlined between the forty third and forty fourth Lines of the second Page.
Attest William Jackson Secretary

Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names,

LawyerRon
11-27-2001, 09:56 PM
Fair enough Carl, I'm not against military trials BTW, the Constitutionality of which has be upheld time and again.

azscary,
The problem with your cut-and-paste exhibit is you left out more than you pasted.

1. Where's the right to privacy in your exhibit?

2. Where's YOUR right to a lawyer in a criminal case if you can't afford one in your exhibit?

3. Where's YOUR right to remain silent if you're arrested in your exhibit.

All these are are a part of our Constitution, but where are they in your exhibit; did you leave something out?

SARGE
11-27-2001, 10:18 PM
If you're not a legal citizen of the U.S., you have NO Constitutional rights, in my opinion. Only CNN and certain lawyers want the terrorists tried here, with due process, simply for the circus atmosphere for CNN and notoriety for the lawyers. We've been taken advantage of for too long by the same folks. For me, give 'em a cigarette, a few moments to make peace with whatever maker they claim, then hang 'em. Would send a message.

Computer Hobbyist
11-27-2001, 10:20 PM
azscary

Tell you what?

Carl,

Our country is based on a set of principals embodied in the constitution and a number of related documents. Those principals include the following. First, people are all treated as individuals.We don't sentence groups to jail nor to execution. Second, there are no status crimes in America; that is you can't be tried for being a Jew, an Arab, a Muslim, a black, a white or for that matter a communist or a "terrorist." People are tried for their acts. You have to be found guilty of an illegal act. Third, all individuals are entitled to the presumption of innocence.Since we try individuals and not groups, just because you are a Jew, an Arab, a Muslim, a black, a white or a communist or even a "terrorist", the presumption of innocence remains the same. The government has to prove you guilty of a criminal act. Fourth, since the government has all the advantages in any prosecution, it has to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. These are not abstract ideas or lawyer tricks. Thousands upon thousands have died for these principals. If we abandon the prinicpals we betray the blood of those thousands. The forgoing principals are at the bed rock of our civilization. If we abandon them by treating one group of people differently than others, then we abandon civilization and the terrorists have won. In short, we are either better than the terrorists are or we are no better. Our choice. Think about that the next time some politican or media wacko tells you that "terrorists" don't deserve fair treatment.

CH

LawyerRon
11-27-2001, 10:29 PM
Computer Hobbyist,
I frequently have these discussions with non-lawyers and they usually begin with the same phrase, "The last time I read the Constitution it didn't say anything about....."(you fill in the blank). Sound familiar?

ps to azscary; you left out the Bill Of Rights and all the other amendments. You know, the First Amendment and so on; kinda important.

Computer Hobbyist
11-27-2001, 11:24 PM
LawyerRon

Yes I know the line. It has been used on me. I wonder how many folks have actually read the constitution. Not many I'd wager. Even fewer realize that to understand the constitution you need to study all the case law that has interpreted it. When I went to law school, constitutional law alone was two long hard semesters. It's really late. I'm so tired I don't know the difference between a principal and a principle. :)

CH

Kubie
11-27-2001, 11:59 PM
Computer Hobbiest,
Is President Bush abandoning the principles by saying "I want him dead or alive"? Or enacting military tribunals?
Carl

Computer Hobbyist
11-28-2001, 07:27 AM
Is President Bush abandoning the principles by saying "I want him dead or alive"? Or enacting military tribunals?

Carl,

What do you think? Shouldn't we stand for something better than Bin Laden? I believe it is the right of every human being to receive a fair trial for his or her crimes. That's a right for which many Americans have died. It is a right in which I personally believe more deeply than life itself and I don't believe much in life is worth dying over. If we are willing to give up that right in the name of "homeland security," we're just one bunch of thugs fighting another bunch of thugs. Sooner or later a bigger bunch of thugs will come along and kill us. If you don't believe me ask a Roman if you can find one. We have no claim to the moral high ground. At the risk of sounding like a bumper sticker, if we are willing to give up rights for the sake of security, we will have neither.

Look at it this way, to have any meaning, rights have to extend to all, good and bad alike. If they don't, they aren't rights, they are privileges. Privilege implies power and submission. That's the same as slavery. Once we allow ourselves to be sucked into the idea that its the government's primary job to despense privileges to the deserving, then we are lost.

CH

Scotty
11-28-2001, 07:38 AM
The definition of posterity by Webster:
Posterity n 1: all of the offspring of a given progenitor; "we must secure the benefits of freedom for ourselves and our posterity" [syn: descendants] 2: all future generations

This is the true intent of the founding fathers. I believe myself that the document was clear in intent to protect the present and future descendants of America with the pre-bill of rights constitution. You notice initially with every amendment it seems that we loose a little more freedom ie: 16th amendment etc... (my edios opinion)

The thing that POs me is the wackos that mess up the constitution by going to extreme's by making a religion out of parts ie: arien nations (or how ever you spell it) montana militia etc. etc.

Anyway I too didn't mean to label lawyers as a whole! I have been a mechanic for 30 years and I know that there is one thing worse that a mechanic and that is two of them ;)

Here is another link to the Constitution as writen if your interested:
http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html

I got to post this too!! It is about as long as the post that "azscary" put is but I thought it would be fitting...

Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men
who signed the Declaration of Independence?

Five signers were captured by the British as traitors,
and tortured before they died.

Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned.

Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army;
another had two sons captured.

Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or
hardships of the Revolutionary War.

They signed and they pledged their lives, their
fortunes, and their sacred honor.
What kind of men were they?

Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists.
Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large
plantation owners; men of means, well educated.
But they signed the Declaration of Independence
knowing full well that the penalty would be death
if they were captured.

Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and
trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the
British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay
his debts, and died in rags.

Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was
forced to move His family almost constantly. He served
in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in
hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and
poverty was his reward.

Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery,
Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and
Middleton.

At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson Jr, noted that
the British General Cornwallis had taken over the
Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged
General George Washington to open fire. The home was
destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt.

Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed.
The enemy jailed His wife, and she died within a few
months.

John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was
dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His
fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more
than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning
home to find his wife dead and his children vanished.
A few weeks later he died from exhaustion and a broken
heart.

Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates.

Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American
Revolution. These were not wild-eyed, rabble-rousing
ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and
education. They had security, but they valued liberty
more. Standing tall, straight, and unwavering, they
pledged:

"For the support of this declaration, with firm
reliance on the protection of the divine providence, we
mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes,
and our sacred honor."

They gave you and me a free and independent America.
The history books never told you a lot about what
happened in the Revolutionary War. We didn't fight
just the British. We were British subjects at that
time and we fought our own government!

Some of us take these liberties so much for granted,
but we shouldn't. So, take a few minutes while
enjoying your 4th of July holiday and silently thank
these patriots. It's not much to ask for the price
they paid.

Remember: freedom is never free!

I hope you will show your support by please sending
this to as many people as you can. It's time we get the
word out that patriotism is NOT a sin, and the Fourth
of July has more to it than beer, picnics, and baseball
games.

Colonel (Dr) Jim Hayes, USAF ret

Sorry so long!! But worth it none the less!! Scotty

LawyerRon
11-28-2001, 07:51 AM
Quote by Scotty:
"The thing that POs me is the wackos that mess up the constitution by going to extreme's by making a religion out of parts ie: arien nations (or how ever you spell it) montana militia etc. etc."

Me too Scotty.

mbossman2
11-28-2001, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by Scotty


Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men
who signed the Declaration of Independence?

Five signers were captured by the British as traitors,
and tortured before they died.

Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned.

Etc etc etc


you may want to check this link: http://www.snopes2.com/glurge/declare.htm

This post does not mean to diminish the courage and fortitude of any of our founding fathers.

Scotty
11-28-2001, 04:20 PM
Another fine example of diversity huh!!!

Let me say it another way: Don't you just hate it when you find out that it feels bad to feel good...

SARGE
11-28-2001, 08:34 PM
Quote by Scotty:
"The thing that POs me is the wackos that mess up the constitution by going to extreme's by making a religion out of parts ie: arien nations (or how ever you spell it) montana militia etc. etc."


Please explain how the above wackos messed up the Constitution. Although the Arian Nations' views are out of sync with most of us, they and the militias are exercising the rights given them by your Constitution/Bill of Rights. When they break the law, that's different, just as with anyone else. They can assemble and have weapons, and even express hatred. Some one would like to take that away, but then let's go after the others we disagree with (perhaps the Baptists?).

I don't recall either of the above groups considering themselves a religion.

Scotty
11-29-2001, 11:21 AM
I just know that using our Constitution as an excuse ie: Freedom of Speech etc to justify the filth that is on our airways is wrong. And I am sure there is someone out there that will correct me on this one too. Even with all the interpretations of the document I still believe that it says what it means and means what it says. This is my own opinion... And you can't tell me that the arien nation group hasn't hid behind "freedom of religion" http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/a83.html
I didn't have to go very far in my search to find this one...
I think at one time these groups mean well but like most every religion they are led astray!! Remember Jim Jones, and a countless others that were exercising their rights
And again I speak in my own opinion.
I think if you research into our so called "gun control" laws in most cases the final outcome is from some source of "wacko" that was influenced by some sort of "religion". I am not saying anything bad about "religion" at all but I do not like commercial religions!
I was raised in a "religious" family and still go to places of fellowship (church) and consider my self to be catholic although I have never gone to a Catholic church. If you look up the translation it means "universal". I think that every religion has a part of the ingredient but because of division nothing will ever get done.. And again I exercise my constitutional rights ;)
Can we get back to building PCs???? Life is too short to dwell on these thoughts!!!! Although this is really fun too... Scotty
PS I really don't mean to step on anyone. Forgive me if I offend anyone!
This is by far the BEST country in the world and we can contribute that to the Constitution :)

pcoopers
12-03-2001, 11:42 PM
Some teacher told me, in another age, that if I couldn't see AT LEAST
2 sides of an argument, I had no right to argue.

On the one hand, I pretty much agree with LawyerRon's side. We should not,
cannot, give the terrorists what they deserve. That would be a bullet in
the neck, then buried under a dung heap. If we deny one damn fool the
right to his public circus, perhaps one day I might be the accused. Rightly
or wrongly accused, I might add.

Sarge really hits a nerve though. In the name of security, safety, and
the need to avoid responsiblity, Americans are willing to surrender their
rights in many areas. Doubt that people? Watch the news, people are
standing in front of cameras daily, announcing that they will surrender
rights and liberties in exchange for a sense of security!

This world has changed so much: my mother in law was 30 something before
she rode in an automobile. This world is changing still. Do I want to
live in the world to come? Sarge, I'm afraid of what the extreme liberals
are going to do with all this mess. The entire nation could be just
like California soon. Already, I can be arrested for not wearing a seat
belt on the public highways. I have been arrested for seating myself
in a public restaurant with my minor son. Reading the news can make you
afraid to compliment a woman on her appearance, for God's sake!

LawyerRon, where is my son's country going?

SARGE
12-04-2001, 05:43 PM
As long as you will agree with them, admit you're too dumb to think for yourself, and need their "guidance & protection", you'll do just fine. We have gotten alot more secure lately. Fingernail clippers have been confiscated at the airports and we have 19-year old gals with unloaded weapons guarding the terminals. The same folks who let the goons in, let them stay in, disregarded all warnings about possible airline terrorism, are now protecting us better. We have illegal aliens and perverts scanning the luggage for contraband, and spending billion(s) of $$ looking for a man in a cave. It's a wonderful life.

pcoopers
12-04-2001, 11:12 PM
Are you a vet, Sarge, your handle suggests it.

A poll on some news thingy weeks ago, do you think the government should
assume responsibility for airline safety?

I stated then, I'll repeat here,

Airline security is the responsibility of the airlines. They should pay
for it, and pass on the cost to their CUSTOMERS, like every other industry
in this country. If the cost of flying becomes prohibitive, then don't
fly. Nowhere in the constitution does the right to fly appear, nor does
it guarantee police protection for all persons at all times, in all places.
In fact, there was a supreme court ruling that the government was NOT
required to do so.

Who should the security people be? Old grunts of course. I don't care
how bright, or how dedicated or how well paid (or not well paid) your
security people are. If they have never met a genuine bad guy, eyeball
to eyeball, who had a need to hurt them, they aren't likely to recognize
the bad guy when they do meet him.

Nothing compares to experience. Oh well, ignorant people vote, so
we end up with ignorant laws.

bob
12-04-2001, 11:33 PM
If that was true then I should be able to sue the airlines for thier lack of secutity and collect for all my losses resulting from 9/11

LawyerRon
12-05-2001, 08:02 AM
Quote by bob:
"If that was true then I should be able to sue the airlines for thier lack of secutity and collect for all my losses resulting from 9/11"


You can.


That is of course, absent legislation from Congress that would limit your rights.

bob
12-05-2001, 12:58 PM
I wonder why not. LOL

LawyerRon, I would never collect.

Carl Price
12-05-2001, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Scotty
I just know that using our Constitution as an excuse ie: Freedom of Speech etc to justify the filth that is on our airways is wrong. And I am sure there is someone out there that will correct me on this one too.

I will take on the task. Have you ever stopped to think, that the only reason that show(s) like this exist is that there are as many people out there that likes that stuff and doesn't think that it is wrong as there are people like you that does think it is wrong. IMO it is filthy but they have more right (because of freedom of speech) to put it on than you do to stop it. When enough people quit watching they will take it off the airways. People who think like you do are the problem with freedom of speech. One of the big problems with personal freedom, is that <B>EVERYONE</B> should have it, not just you.


Even with all the interpretations of the document I still believe that it says what it means and means what it says. This is my own opinion... And you can't tell me that the arien nation group hasn't hid behind "freedom of religion" http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/a83.html
I didn't have to go very far in my search to find this one...
I think at one time these groups mean well but like most every religion they are led astray!! Remember Jim Jones, and a countless others that were exercising their rights
And again I speak in my own opinion.

I didn't know they considered themselves to be religions. But, I may be wrong.

I think if you research into our so called "gun control" laws in most cases the final outcome is from some source of "wacko" that was influenced by some sort of "religion".

The best gun control in the world is hitting what you aim at and not firing till you have aimed.


This is by far the BEST country in the world and we can contribute that to the Constitution :)

I agree completely

pcoopers
12-05-2001, 03:06 PM
Carl, yes, the Aryan thing may be considered a "religion".

Neitsche, think I spelled it right, came up with the entire mythology
regarding the origin and superiority of the aryan race, ie, there was a
race of man on this earth to start with, most of us non-wasp white looking
people. Then the Aryans came from somewhere out of the blue, paradise?,
and because they were superior, they displaced us normal men as they
chose. The Jews, and maybe other arab races, definitely the blacks,
all barged into the world from some other place, maybe hell.

It's a long time since I read the bullsh** story, my details aren't all
in line, but that's the concept in a nutshell. The very term Nazi is
derived from Neitsche's name, as this fellow was Adolph's number 1 hero.

Just thought I'd clear up the point, the aryans are no different from the
ultra extreme moslems: the rest of us are non-human, cattle, for use as
the superior race, or the race in touch with God, sees fit.