Most Dare Call It Treason

[clydefo]

Is John Walker, US citizen cum Talibaner, a traitor or is he a religious student caught up in a bad situation when the US started bombing?

Consider:
<b>US Constitution. Article III
Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.

US Code. Title 18. Sec. 2381. Treason
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States. </b>


Questions for anyone that I have about Treason:

Is there any evidence that Walker committed an “overt act” and are there two witnesses against him?

Who “owes allegiance to the United States”? Certainly a military officer like Benedict Arnold does.
What about an illegal immigrant earning his living in the US and enjoying police and fire protection, schooling for his kids, etc? Does a citizen owe allegiance solely by virtue of his citizenship? Someone can voluntarily take a “Pledge of Allegiance to the flag and to the country for which it stands…”; does this have any legally binding consequences? Does it imply that one can choose not to “owe allegiance”?

Must there be an element of treachery or betrayal of trust?

Has anyone ever been convicted of Treason?

[highrisemech]

Get lost this guy is a traitor and deserves to be convicted as such.
He had plenty of time to get out of this hostile country before hostilities began so don't throw that bull our way that he was a student caught up in a bad situation. To bad he sided with the wrong side, the losing side, and as the President so put it the "evil ones".

[Mad Machinist]

Hopefully he will try to escape......................and unfortunately the U.S. Army hasn't executed any one since WWII (Pvt Eddie Slovick - Desertion) so this bum will probably wind up in prison somewhere getting 3 hots and a cot for the next 30 years.
Is it treason........? In my humble opinion when a citizen of this country takes up arms against, or joins an organization actively engaged in conspiracy to overthrow or attack the people or government of the United States it most definitely is treason and I volunteer to be the firing squad or the hangman.....both still legal forms of execution when the death sentance is handed down by courts martial.

P.S. This pinhead was captured as a result of combat operations and offered resistance.........too bad he wasn't a casualty as a result of combat operations......we don't need a situation for all the limp wristed bleeding heart liberals to talk about what a horrible people we are for persecuting this young man...trust me I have circumnavigated the globe twice with stops in excess of a year or three along the way........and I can assure you it don't get no better .

[LawyerRon]

Clydfo,
He won't be tried for treason. Prosecutions for treason are extremely rare and any caselaw on the issue is many decades old. It's much easier to prosecute him under U.S. statutes dealing with "sedition" as the U.S. did with the "blind cleric" who conspired to blow up the World Trade Center a few years back.

Looking at this in the shoes of the "prosecutor" it's a tough uphill burden to go the "treason" route and there are easier ways to get the job done, if they choose to prosecute him at all.

[clydefo]

<b>Highrisemech</b> refers to the President's past remarks: “…he sided with the wrong side, the losing side, and as the President so put it the "evil ones".”

In these excerpts from the 20/20 interview on 12/5, the President sounds like he could be “John's” lawyer!

“WALTERS ** What about American citizens… John Walker Lindh, who is a 20-year-old American.
PRESIDENT BUSH ** Yeah…
WALTERS ** He's fought for the Taliban. He is being held by U.S. forces. What do you do with him? Is he a traitor?
PRESIDENT BUSH ** Well, we didn't find out the circumstances…
WALTERS ** And then… (Inaudible)
PRESIDENT BUSH ** …Well, we think — we're not sure — we're just trying to learn the facts about this poor fellow.
Obviously he has been misled. It appears to me he thought he was going to fight for a great cause; and in fact, he was going to support a government that was one of the most repressive governments in the history of mankind. Surely he was raised better than to know that a government that suppresses women and women's rights, that doesn't educate young girls, is not the kind of government worth dying for.
WALTERS ** What do we do with him?
PRESIDENT BUSH ** I don't know. We're trying to figure that out. I can't make any news right now because we're in the process of determining what to do with John. “


<b>LawyerRon,</b>
I'll have to bone up on sedition but it seems a stretch to apply it to a rank and file soldier. He is a POW, isn't he?

[LawyerRon]

He can't be a POW bacause he's a U.S. Citizen. That must make him some sort of "law breaker". Or did he really break any laws? Many more facts are needed. One fact that really works against him is the CIA agent that died in the uprising.

My other point was a prosecution for Treason is really the hard way of doing things.

[SARGE]

If the Taliban were a declared enemy prior to his joining, maybe a traitor. To continue siding with them after the fact is a depend. It may not have been exactly easy to walk away.

[clydefo]

<b>US Code. Title 18. Chapter 115. Sec. 2384. Seditious conspiracy

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.</b>


<b>LawyerRon</b>,
Is the above the pertinent statute on sedition? If so, who would be his co-conspirator? Is Afghanistan “subject to the jurisdiction of the United States”?

What would be his connection to the death of the CIA agent? Walker was apparently intent on hunkering down and saving his own skin while other Taliban tried to escape, a duty of POW’s. I understand that at the first opportunity he declared his nationality and “gave himself up” to agents of the US. As <b>SARGE</b> said: “It may not have been exactly easy to walk away.”

[pcoopers]

I have only one question, 2 parts to it:

Did this turkey bear arms against my flag? Did anyone die as a result of his actions?

The first part of my question, determines a degree of guilt that can't be overlooked. The second part determines how harsh or lenient a penalty I want
to see.

Need some facts, but ANY US citizen in a combat zone can be brought under the
jurisdiction of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) merely for failing to cooperate with military authorities. Resisting those same authorities constitutes sedition and/or mutiny, while taking up arms against the flag becomes treason.

Any veteran, any cop, can tell you there are dire consequences for carrying a weapon. Using that weapon unwisely is indeed punishable by death, either in the field, or in front of a firing squad.

I've got no sympathy for an adventurer who ventured the wrong way.

[LawyerRon]

Clyde,
That's the codified version of the original Sedition act from 1798. The original act was also amended a few times and as I recall was ultimately believed to be unconstitutional because of its severe limits on speech against the Govt in violation of the First Amendment. Spies are often prosecuted under these sedition statutes.

As to a co-conspirator, who knows. Like I said, we don't know enough facts yet or even what he was doing with the Taliban. One could think of a few defenses though to raise "reasonable doubt" in the minds of a jury, eg., coercion, intimidation, etc. I'm not defending him without more facts but it's entirely possible he didn't have much choice. Notice I said "possible", I didn't say that's a fact.

Quote by pcoopers:
"Did this turkey bear arms against my flag?"

I don't know. All I know right now is he was found in a basement with Taliban members.

[pcoopers]

Thanks Cpt Koester,

Watched "The Lost Battalion" a couple nights ago with my boys. Talk wandered, we got on the subject of desertion, I explained about Eddie, and the fact that the Army doesn't shoot people for desertion any more. I just couldn't remember his name.

Lost Battalion ranks high in my list of movies, for realism, accuracy, and honesty. That's not to say it's perfect, but it's high.

[pam123]

Those jokes about denial being a river in Egypt are looking a lot less funny. I'm tempted to suggest jailing Walker for stupidity. He didn't speak the language, ignored everything going on around him, and conceived a love for the Taliban while on the Northwest frontier. A place where it should have been plain that he was heading for a totalitarian state ( apparently his rejection of the west included forgetting what free societies look and act like ).
What stays my condemnation is that I think this guy was snared by a known problem with being a religious seeker. In fact it's so well known that most responsible religions with monasteries take pains to prevent it. It's a combination of spiritual pride and a longing for absolutes that the Novice Master in charge of formation schools his charges against and it's a necessary first step in the creation of a religious. The "do it yourself" approach to religion removes important safeguards and no one is going to suggest that the Taliban are either moral or responsible. This guy may not have known it but he signed up to be cannon fodder.
I also have some trouble with the parents. I mean why, if you had a son with this bent, would you let him wander around parts of the globe known for producing religious zealots? What are parents for if they don't have more sense than their 19 year old kids?
This is something that need not have happened and, judging by the stories about the other "volunteers", many of them were caught in exactly the same way. Walker must answer for the situation he found himself in and so must the others but it is an enormous waste of young lives. And the Taliban must be made to answer for that as well.

[pcoopers]

Pam123, I like your view,

A: This nation's bending over backward to deny responsibility has got to end.
Relieving everyone of responsibility, and hence their rights, fits right in with all the conspiracy theories to dismantle the US. Totalitarianism looms on our own horizon, via the Police State.

B: I'm quite sick of all the stories, all through history, of people who worship a benevolent God, but have to run out and kill people to prove their love of God.
Where might the medical arts be today, if the Christian crusaders had not destroyed the library at Constantinople? Not to mention the other sciences.

[pam123]

The Venetians were on a looting expedition when they redirected the last crusades to sack Constantinople. If they'd managed to get their hands on the medical texts Venice would probably have become the first really large for profit medical service. They had the right mindset for that sort of thing.
Religion has always been double edged. It's misuse, whether from ignorace or intent is a crime, and we are counting the cost of that now. Walker will pay personally for it and so will a family that didn't think things through.

[pam123]

I had to think about your part A. Initially it sounded too much like rightwing paranoia to me. On reflection though, yes, if you decrease personal responsibility you also decrease personal decision making. And yeah, you will lose freedom. First in small bits and then maybe all.
But, and this is the argument from the other side, personal responsibility is not never ending. Self-determination is limited and there is no getting around that either. So we have a balancing act. I've got no special solutions for it except to take it as it comes and try to be as fair and as merciful as I can.

[troysvihl]

From the info that's been released so far, I don't think I'd call him a traitor. He wasn't fighting the US, he was fighting the Northern Alliance. And was doing so before 9-11. There was also that news report a few days back that said the Taliban was going to execute any of their soldiers that tried to quit and go home. So maybe there's an element of duress there.


Here's someone who says he's not a terrorist either. He's just an asshole.

http://www.borowitzreport.com/

[bob]

The NA lets the Afgan Talabains go home if they change sides. If this idiot would repent then let him come home to a nice trial. Otherwise treat him like the other Non-Afgan terrorists.

[troysvihl]

Whops. That link was dated. Here's the archive I'm referring too:

http://www.borowitzreport.com/archive_rpt.asp?rec=111

[pcoopers]

Borowitz is O.K. However he uses his terms rather loosely, in a medical context.

U.S. military terminology is somewhat different. Uncle Sam trained me to be an asshole, and I studied with a heart, so that I may become a more perfect asshole.

There is no doubt in my military mind that anyone American who fought for the Taliban did SOMETHING wrong. Nor is there any doubt that Walker is a jerk, a moron, as well as most of the things that Horowitz calls him.

However, Walker lacks the intelligence, the maturity, and the perspective to be a bonafide asshole. It irritates me when people use their terms so loosely.

Anyone who understands the concept of "enemy of mine enemy" would see the logic in finding Walker guilty of seditious conduct, and exiling him from th U.S.

Read "Man without a country" Can't remember who wrote it, don't even know if it's been banned. Teachers have no use for books that teach the hard facts of life.

[bob]

Troy, that link was too funny.