If you could.....

[Toaster]

Time frame:
January 1, 1900
-to-
January 1, 2000

Purpose:
To effect a difference in history for either betterment of the human race as a whole or where to effect the greatest change.

Limitations:
120 minutes to play with to use anywhere WITHIN the time frame given.

See if you can "decide" the future or past with only 120 minutes to use as you see fit.
You may use the time in part or whole anywhere within the time frame given. Any amount of time but not to exceed 120 minutes.
You may use x amount of time in Y places but the sum total of the time used must be no more then 120 minutes.
You may choose: person, place or thing so long as the alloted time is not exceeded within the time frame given, there are no other restrictions.

[underfunded]

Lets see: Warn of the bombing of Pearl Harbor, also about the losses at Normandy. Warn of the coming tradgedy with Hitler. Tell them to correct the math on the Mars Polar Lander. http://www.pcmech.com/ubb/smile.gif

[HAL9000]

If you were going to warn the people of Pearl Harbor, shouldn't you warn those of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as well. Personally, given this kind of opportunity, I don't think I would go back to change history. The impact that it could have could be devastating. I might go back a few days with the winning lottery numbers, but that's about it.

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If it ain't broke, you're not pushing hard enough!

[Tiretool]

Actually, without Pearl Harbor, Hiroshima and Nagasaki may have never happened.

How about killing Hitler while he was young and not so popular? Lots less reprocussions if you caught him while he was not a political giant. Millions of lives saved...
With the right weapon it would only take about 15 minutes.

Interrupt the launch of the shuttle Discovery. ? minutes (Somebody help me out with this time)

Interrupt the departure of aircraft that we know would crash (a simple 2 minute call to the airport security office with a bomb threat would have at least held up the take offs).

Somehow try to re-route the Titanic. (? time ?)

I could go on and on.

Go into detail how you want the time thing done Toaster. I'm a little fuzzy on the rules.

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Life: Sexually transmitted, always fatal.

************************************
tiretool@pcmech.com

[Floppyman]

Ahhhh hold on folks. Hitler would probably have never come to power if it weren't for WWI where afterwards Germany had to pay war reparations which made the people poor and Hitler came to power after finding someone to put the blame on.... the jews.and so he came to power.....so warn people of the after effects of WWI and Hitler might never have happened....that means no WWII no Cold War probably then....and so on...it's funny how you can trace things back and see cause and effect in history. There's a lot more to it than what I just said....I'm just going brief here.

[Toaster]

The 120 minutes I stipulated was in a way drawn from a hat. However, I used this amount to make very subtle changes to several time lines. You folks also need to be keen on "what" may happen if you do distort a time line. Try to be as specific as possible.
Simply "deleting" the instance of conseption for Billy boy can have GREAT consiquence.
One should be specific as to "where" in the time line you suggest a change and "what" could be the end result. This is obviously not as easy as it sounds because of a sort of "ripple effect". So...if Billy boy were deleted, what would be the result?
Well, no Micky$oft, no Winderz and no to many things that most didn`t even consider.
As to Pearl Harbor, in what way could simply adjusting the time line change the outcome or even the progression of the time line?
Remember, we can only adjust the minutes and not a cause. Explain how a few minutes would change history.
Now heres something to consider:
1. adjust the time line associated with a volcanic eruption. A earlier eruption might have made the eruption less severe.
2. Delay the departure of the titanic by 30 minutes. This could cause a "miss" of the iceberg.
3. Delay the departure of the Hindenburg by 1 hour. This might have caused a weather change?
4.The first arial attack on Perl Harbor delayed 1 hour. More folks would be awake and get to "battle stations" faster and in greater numbers. Also the arrival of a squadron of B-19s would have been caught on the ground. Earlier time lines would reverse the above to some degree but losses would have been increased by about 20%.
....more later

[Toaster]

Woops!
Ok folks, le`me clarify here a bit.
In this experiment, one can only use time.
You can not do anything else, just add/delete/change upto 120 minutes. That is, no warnings or other types but just a simple "time shift".
History is replete with "if it were a minute sooner..." *or* "had I been there a second later.."
So in essence, no warnings, no phone calls nothing....just 2 hours of time to "toy" with.
C`mon, lets remake history can you....
1. Cause the extinction of the human race and for that matter life on earth as a whole?
2. Change a timeline for the betterment of mankind?
3. Stop something from happening?
4. Cause something to happen?

In many of historys lessons, time was critical. A minute shift backwards or forewards could have made a world of a difference and you have 2 hours. As I unclearly stated, you can make any number of changes to any time line within the specified dates. You are alloted 2 hours TOTAL to use as you see fit. All of the occurences you decide shall NOT exceed 2 hours. Spend wisely. In simplest terms: Use 120 minutes within the time frame given. Any number of occurences where the total time used in ALL occurences shall not exceed 2 hours total COMBINED.
Sorry for the "fuzzyness".
Thanks for the input, time to let your imagination and your history run wild.


No notes, no calls, no physical or verbal interferance of any sort in any mannor, just time....a whole 120 minutes of it.

[This message has been edited by Toaster (edited 08-15-2000).]

[padgettj]

Delete the time during which Bill Gates was born....Windows has been the bane of my existence! I don't know how much of an impact on history that would have made. I'm sure we would all still be here. But at least I'D be happier!

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Jason Padgett
padgettj@mindspring.com

[underfunded]

Why just delete the time he was born? Why not delete the time he was concieved? It would definately be shorter. After all 30 seconds for his dads fun is shorter than 12 hours of his moms pain. http://www.pcmech.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Byte 2.0]

I think this is what you mean. How about we could give Pearl Harbor 10 extra minutes. That way they get their planes up in the air and get their ships battle ready. However don't cause the attack to not happen, because with out attack, we would not have entered the war and Hitler may have won.

so we can't chance changing anything that would prevent us from entering the war, but if we could fix it so that we didn't suffer such a great loss at Pearl Harbor, we could have won that battle and had a larger fleet of ships left to carry the war to Japan quicker which would have saved more lives in that threater of the war and have more man power to fight Hitler.

So I belive I have 110 minutes left to play with...

Toaster did you rub a lamp and get this 120 minutes as a wish? If so please UPS the lamp to me so that I am redeem my wishes as well... http://www.pcmech.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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byte@pcmech.com

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[StuartW]

As one who reads nothing but Science Fiction this has been the subject of countless novels.
My choice would be to delay by two hours the journey on June 28th 1914 of the heir to the Austro-Hugarian throne, the Arch Duke Ferdinand.This would have prevented his assasination by a student, leading to a breakdown of stability in that part of Europe.This led to Austria declaring war on Serbia, with Russia mobilizing 1,200,000 troops, causing Germany to warn Russia to stop.Germany then declares war on France, and invades Belgium, with Japan declaring war on Germany, with Britain declaring war on Germany on August 4th. This led to World War 1, and as mentioned in an earlier posting, the impoverishment of the German people who were then more susceptible to allowing Hitler to rise to power.

[This message has been edited by StuartW (edited 08-15-2000).]

[bob]

I would not change a thing that happened before I was born. Would hate to mess that up. Like the lottery idea.

[Toaster]

Stuart is in the ball park here.

Lets take the "sneak" attack on Perl Harbor.
If one delayed the attack by as little as an hour, the attack may not have been a "sneak" attack but a provoked one. In that hour, the Japaneese ambassadores would/could have completed their "ultimatum". The result could have been America stalling to go to war with Japan. This result could have lengthened the war (pacific) and it`s outcome changed.
Lets say that we add 3 minutes to the occaision where Hitlers assisination in early 1944 with the bomb. The bomb may have killed him and the war won earlier. This may have had an effect on the russian occupation and anixation of "east germany". At that time Russia was still reeling from the german attacks.
Its in all practical intents impossible to determine an outcome from a "simple" time adjustment. Some are clear, others are not.
Say one "saved" the titanic from its maden voyage sinking. Could one of the "survivors" changed the time line? Probably because the liner had many influential peoples aboard.
What other ideas have you?

[theENiGMA]

Then that stupid movie would never have been made! http://www.pcmech.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


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Well, I'm off to go look for myself. If I should get back before I return, tell myself to wait for me.

[This message has been edited by theENiGMA (edited 08-16-2000).]

[StuartW]

This is not as easy as it first seems. You could make alterations which only make minor changes; for example preventing the sinking of the Titanic would not radically alter the course of world history. Another example - if you were to delay President Kennedy in Dallas in 1963, and he was not assasinated, in all probability the war in Vietnam would not have happened. Although a great tragedy to many Americans, Vietnam made very little impact on the majority of the world population.
One of the few examples of major changes would be the stopping of the two World Wars.
Here is another to consider:
If in 1903, the Detroit coal merchant, Alexander Malcolmson had been delayed by two hours with his meeting with other backers to bankroll Henry Ford, and the consortium had not been formed, Ford may not have gone on to mass produce the motor car. This would have had far reaching results. Without cheap transport, people would have been born,lived and died close to their birthplace. This lack of mobility of labour would have slowed the industrial revolution of the last 100 years. Spin off technology from the car, such as the development of the aeroplane would have slowed, halting the expansion of Western Nations into the third world, which would have remained in ignorant poverty.Transport of food over long distances would not have been possible, resulting in people spending much of their time growing food for their own consumption, leaving little time for innovation and scientific research.I am sure you can think of plenty of other examples the lack of mass ownership of the car would effect.
Here's another: if Nobel had somehow been delayed in inventing dynamite, the world would have been dramatically changed - I leave you to work out the kind of changes that would have happened.

[Toaster]

Stuart,
In all likelyhood Mr. Ford would have found alternate funding. But...you never know and niether shall we. During WWII, time differences would have been more critical IMHO. Hitler didn`t think things through and made decisions on a whim because of certain conditions. Troops were in Vietnam by the end of the 50`s and the war was "publicised" in the early 60`s and brought "home". Kennedy simply increased the troop counts. During this time, great instabilities were occuring and soviet intervention would have been likely. The "bay of pigs" incedent was a very unnerving time in world history as it was as close to Nuclear war as we have yet to come.
Therefore, delaying the "manhattan" project could have something to consider.
With hindsight, we think we have the knowledge to make a change but I feel sure that we would make another equally dangerous alternative time line.
So...when someone walks up to you with a time machine capable of what we have discussed, destroy it without provocation and aforethought. Man needn`t mess with time, we can make a fine mess without this type of power. http://www.pcmech.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[StunGunz]

Now if I could go forward Toaster. I'd go to my own funeral and take all my freinds who showed, out for a beer.

[Toaster]

Lets see, *YOU* go to *your* funeral to see who attends. Theres a catch22.
I wouldn`t think that man could ever go into the future but the past seems plausible.
Maybe from an "outside in view" rather then partaking in the possible re-creation of history back. Then again, maybe to see the future in the same "outside in view" where one could only view and not interact.
Then one could "SEE" thier funeral but one question remains:
How would one "focus" on a particular part of a time line? IE, see your own funeral?
I think this would be the big stumbling block..."choosing" the time one wanted to view or modify.

[bailey]

you guys are giving me a head ache, what kind of drugs are you's on?

[OOPS!]

Hi!

I've been reading this thread with some intrest. I think that you would not be able to change history. Destiniy is inevitable. Most of you touch on it. To use an already mentioned example, WW1. Duke Ferdinane was not very popular with the people, or his father, who considered him an incompitant fool. France and Germany were bound to fight over the "Lost Provinces". England would have backed her Allies, And we would would have been drawen into the war by a sunken ship. Perhaps not the Lusitania, but another one.

Maybe, one can change the time factor, or the particular way something happens, but to prevent it, I don't think is possible.


OOPS!

[nightsky]

I just eraticated the words fear, hate, ignorance, war and replaced them with respect for all life, reflection, empathy, compassion, free thought, and gratitude for the humor and witt encountered here. LOL Thank you all


[This message has been edited by nightsky (edited 08-28-2000).]

[StuartW]

OOPS - I have to agree with you - time is immutable. If Hitler had been assasinated before his rise to power, someone else would have taken his place, and events would have been broadly similar. A classic example is if you could go back in time and prevent your birth.You would no longer exist, thus you could not have gone back in time to prevent your conception (sorry bailey, but time is one of the least understood natural forces)
It is sometimes argued that if you can't change time,there is no point in trying to alter events e.g. stop someone killing themself.But the fact that you made the attempt will in the future be part of the historical time line, so you have no choice in what you do.It may well be that in a few hundred years time will be better understood, but it will still not be possible to change what happened; although you may be able to be a passive observer at past events.