illegal operation problems

[jsanchez]

hey kids,

i work at a computer lab at a university and one of the comps. is giving me problems. it keeps on giving me a message that explorer has performed an illegal operation. i can't do anything with it because the message always pops up....it won't even allow me to go into the control panel. if it were up to me, i'd go ahead and reinstall windows, but again that would be a last resort. what do u suggest?

[GaryRouth]

Which version of Windows is that machine running? If it's WinME, you can run System Restore from Safe Mode (hold down CTRL keys while booting or re-booting) - and select a restore point from prior to the problem.

If Win95/98, see if you can post more info. That message box usually has a "Details" button that will tell you what module is crashing, which helps track things down a lot. Probably will read something like "Explorer has caused an invalid page fault in [module so-and-so]".

While in Safe Mode, take a look in Device Manager & see if any of the devices have red "X"s or yellow "!" exclamation points.

Best of luck
. . . Gary

[How much are the users allowed to do? Can they download/install programs? . . . and probably a good idea to run a full system scan, especially one from DOS - the recent Nortons can do this, you boot to the Norton cd & run the Emergency scan]

[jsanchez]

It is windows 98 "first edition". Though I am not in the lab right now, i do remember clicking the details button and reading the page fault was in an 'unknown' module. I ran scandisk from dos and there wasn't any bad clusters. i will try running safe mode and looking at the device manager and see what happens.

As for the users, they can pretty much do whatever they want...which especially includes downloading/installing. the supposed "tech" people at the university gave me a norton system works 2000 cd to work with. i've never used it other than today. they told me to run windoctor, which i have, but no luck. i'll get back to u gary....thank u for your input

by the way, some computers lock up or don't read the cd at all. i believe maybe the cd drives may have been tampered with since the computers with this problem are side by side...i'll check device manager tomorrow. could maybe post up a thread later about that situation.

[GaryRouth]

Hmm . . . You don't happen to have a Norton Ghost copy for each machine, do you?

Since you have so many users doing so many unknown things: if they are expected to carry away with them any data that they wish to save (or save it to a network drive), then it might be faster to go with your 1st instinct: reformat and reinstall from scratch. Doesn't take long at all on recent machines. You might end up troubleshooting things for days otherwise. I'd disconnect the machine from the network while you fix it.

It's an interesting case that several machines are acting up: I doubt that it's hardware, as far as the drives all in a row - sounds more like a user jumping from one seat to another as he/she tried something that they shouldn't have.

I'd recommend using Norton Ghost each time you clean install a machine. Saves a lot of time in big rooms with lots of boxes and users. Norton Doctor (SystemWorks) works best when it's installed first, before other software is added. It's not my favorite set of programs, though. I do think that Norton Ghost and Norton AntiVirus do their jobs well.

Well, we'll see what those computers have in store for us tomorrow. . .

Best of luck
. . . Gary

[jsanchez]

checked device manager...but no dice or exclamation points for that matter :D . i had to alt+enter my computer because the comp. won't let me right click anything at all. it now seems two computers are having this exact same problem.

one thing about reinstalling/formatting windows. the people here don't have any windows 98 or norton ghost CDs whatsoever. i have one at home, but i don't think that is very legal. as you can see, i don't have much too much to work with.

edit: the comps. i told you about that were having problems reading the cd work now. it's weird...i had to disconnect them from the network in order for them to actually run the cd entirely. i should have mentioned that they did run the cd before, but would freeze up halfway through...all better now though.

[GaryRouth]

Good Morning

The university should have received some sort of disk with each computer when they were purchased, even if they seem to have forgotten where they put them. I don't think you should bring anthing from your home environment to install in the lab, it's the university's IT department that should handle the licensing of software: they can get very nice discounts as an educational institution, so they have every reason to stay with the legal copies of things.

Since I doubt that the hardware changes much for a large installation like yours, the Recovery Disk sets that they should have come with will make your life easier - very similiar to Ghost, they will completely reformat/reinstall the boxes to their original shipping condition. They really should have a set somewhere. (Even if the machines were donated).

Well, in the meantime, just to get them running (so students can at least get some work done) - from Safe Mode enter the System Configuration Utility, and uncheck all the items in the StartUp tab except SysTray and the Power Profiles (there will be two profiles). If the computers have onboard sound (likely), it might not be available if it relies on a background process. If the students don't need it, no problem. If they really do need it, then leave the background process for the sound checked. [Start/Programs/Accessories/System Tools/System Information . . . from the "Tools" menu, choose System Configuration Tool" . . . or type sysconfig in your Start/Run box]

Am I figuring right - that when you installed & ran System Doctor, you ran a complete virus check as well?

Some other tools you might want for that lab: AdAware for detecting spyware (http://www.lavasoft.de) The Cleaner for trojans (http://www.moosoft.com) . . . just in case the students are installing/using file sharers like KaZaa - which can bring down the house with viruses and nonsense of all sorts. Uninstall any instances of KaZaa you find, that's for sure: it will absolutely kill a network.

I'm assuming that if the students have access to the web, they are behind a firewall? and a proxy server?

I'll hold off on any further troubleshooting while you check on finding disks. You won't want to run the "Selective Startup" (using sysconfig) forever, it's really just a troubleshooting tool. It's best to have a working normal startup.

Best of luck,
. . . Gary

[Markoman01027]

I agree with Gary, it sounds like a software problem. Some student must have been doing what they werent suppose to be doing. I highly recommend putting access privilages on the computers.

Go into Safe Mode, and run MSCONFIG or SYSCONFIG and try disabling some of the programs, and see if you still receive that error.

[jsanchez]

gary,

i found a windows 98 cd....before i proceed, i need to ask u, does this erase or reconfigure anything on the comp.? they have some software they need and guess what? no CDs for it. if i erase it, it's gone...i've never done a reinstall, just a fresh install with a brand new machine and one that had been reformatted totally.

edit: i found a restoration cd!!! i'm going to go ahead and reinstall win98 from this cd. however, i 'm still curious about if it erases anything.

[jsanchez]

not good guys....reinstalled windows wiped everything clean...now what? are the comps. in the lab are similar...this may be a crazy idea, but if i do a backup of one computer...is it possible to copy that backup into the wiped computer? if it is, what is the procedure?

[GaryRouth]

Sorry I wasn't around in time to warn you: a Recovery CD does indeed offer to recover everything to it's original condition: as it arrived from the factory. Anything added since needs to be reinstalled or restored from backups.

I can't believe that somewhere at the university they don't have a copy of the software they are using in the lab. If they don't, where on earth did it come from? Sounds a bit disorganized, to say the least. Call around to whatever IT group helps support your center, and see if anyone knows where their licensed software is kept. Has to be there somewhere.

You're better off starting from scratch with a fresh install of those programs than trying to copy them from other machines. Many installation programs will install differently (different components, different versions of files, etc) depending on what hardware/software they detect on the system. And, aside from the programs that need to be re-installed, the systems are running smoothly now?

This is why I recommend Ghost: you'd have Everything back to where you want it: because you can make a Ghost image after you've installed all the software that the students need (and prior to the damage they eventually wreak on the systems).

In the wild chance that the software the students use is a freeware download (something like Sun Star Office 5.2, for example) - all you need to do is download the installation file.

I wouldn't worry too much - someone really, really does Have to have a license somewhere. No IT professional could keep a job if students were relying on software that couldn't be reinstalled when necessary. It's stored somewhere: too bad that they aren't doing a better job of communicating with you their standard pratices and procedures: this should be old hat. In large installations, reinstalling a machine shouldn't take more than an hour, maybe an hour and a half.

Best of luck - might keep the number handy of whoever holds the keys to the recovery disks & installation files. Don't let 'em hide when you need 'em :)
. . . Gary

[jsanchez]

Gary,

They system is running smoothly now (just used it on one comp. to be safe, i'll let the IT people handle the other one), but with no software on it. I'll try my best to hunt down the CDs and tell the IT people to re-establish its connection to the network. Gary, a few more questions. When doing a reinstall, other than ghost, what program do u use to backup your software? I used microsoft's backup utility to backup one of the comps...don't know if that's the best one. Also, from my understanding, with norton ghost, i can go ahead and ghost one computer when it is exactly how i want it and just use that ghost file on all the other computers to keep them the same or would i need a ghost file for each comp? Going back to my question, is it possible to make a backup of a similar computer and use that backup on the computer with nothing so that it can have the same programs?

Sorry to bother you with all these dumb questions, but I've want to learn as much as possible so i could avoid something like this in the future...thanks for all your help

GIVE A MAN A FISH AND HE'LL EAT FOR A DAY; TEACH A MAN TO FISH AND HE'LL EAT FOR A LIFETIME

[GaryRouth]

Hi again

I work at a fairly large medical lab, and we backup things in several ways. Most important data is stored on mirrored drives. Important data that needs to be archived is first archived to a locally accessible drive, then after a given amount of time is written onto either a CD or an MO (magnetic optical - they strore between 4 and 8 gb). The MO cartridges have a "jukebox" that allows that data to be accessed fairly quickly. We also do old-fashioned tape backups: every night, incremental backups, and once a week a complete backup with rotating offsite storage. [Forgot to mention that the main data is actually mirrored at up to three separate locations (buildings) - so that a disaster in one building doesn't affect the data].

For our pcs, some departments use Norton Ghost, some don't. Those that don't (there aren't that many) usually don't have complex configurations on their pcs - they just reinstall from scratch if problems get out of hand [although it's very rare that much of anything that drastic happens - I can't remember any in the last couple of years (we have pretty extensive AntiVirus and security goings on: viruses are usually the main cause of that sort of serious system disruption). Important data on the pcs is part of the backup routine that I just mentioned above: most of the data to be backed up is transferred to it's network storage over a high-speed Ethernet link.

To use Ghost, it's best to use one copy per machine. The only time this isn't true is if the machines are configured EXACTLY the same - right down to the same revision of the motherboard: same cpu, same hard drive, same video/audio/lan, --same all around. It can really be a mess if Ghost is used on a pc without something like EzBios or Partition Magic, and then attempted to be restored to one that does have those.

We keep a lot of our programs with multi-user licenses on a network drive we simply call the Install drive. Programs can be loaded from the network. This may be exactly what your university does, and you can install the programs from a location on your network (it'd still be likely that someone somewhere has a disk or two). Your IT support would (should) know about the location of install files.

I suppose this is a little lengthy way to answer, let me know if anything isn't clear. The short answer to your Ghost question is: I recommend ghosting each machine separately. It just works better, and is easier for the tech doing the restoring.

Best of luck, and enjoy your learning (I try to enjoy mine as well)
. . . Gary