DVD/R/RW, etc

[jbbrown211]

Do I need any other CD Drives if I get the new DVD & CD recordable combo drives that are out there now?

[Force Flow]

No, but it can be handy sometimes to have an extra optical drive.

[Alienware_Dude]

Just pick up a $20 52x CD-ROM in case you want to do disc-to-disc burns.

[avx]

When you say "DVD and CD recordable combo" what are you referring too? A DVD-ROM that also reads CD-ROMS, or a DVD-RW drive that can aso RW CD's? There are so many combos and ways of putting it its hard to understand what you mean when you word itt hat way.

Sorry if Im over thinking it:D

[jbbrown211]

No you're probably right. Something like this:
Write Support:
DVD-R: 4X (Requires 4X DVD-R Media), 2X, 1X
DVD-RW: 2X(Requires 2X DVD-RW Media), 1X
CD-R: 16X, 12X, 8X, 4X
CD-RW: 8X, 4X
Read Support:
DVD-ROM (Single): Max 12X CAV
DVD-ROM (Dual): Max 8X CAV
DVD-R, DVD-RW: Max 6X CAV
CD-ROM: Max 32X CAV
CD-R, CD-RW: Max 32X CAV
CD-DA: Max 32X CAV

[avx]

where did you get that info from they are different types of speeds...Im not really sure which one you are looking at

If I were you I would just get your common 16x dvd-rom that also supports cd-rom's try and det dvd 16x and cd anything over 36 should be great, then if you want get a CD-RW I have a 48x 16x 48x and it works great, and if you want get another cd-rom drive like (Im in edit I cant see hwo typed it :D) like he mentioned and you should be set, if you also want to get a dvd burner, I would recommedn waiitng for some other people advice on that cause Im not to firmialiar with them, just make sure your case has atleast 4 5.25" bays, cause your dvd-rom,cd-rw, and cd rom already take up 3, and if your getting a dvd burner you need 4, and have 1 more just for safety.

[jbbrown211]

It's a pioneer drive. Saw it on newegg.

[avx]

Give us a link...Highlight the site address, right click, select copy, and then paste it here, that way we can see exactly waht your looking at.

[jbbrown211]

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?submit=manufactory&catalog=5&manufactory=1167&DEPA=1&sortby=14&order=1

[jbbrown211]

From the above link, would that be all I would need as far as CD Drives?

[Alienware_Dude]

Yes, but it only writes CD-Rs at 16x max. What are you planning on using the DVD burner for? Digital film?

[RJ]

DVD burners are all capable of burning CD's, too, so you burn the same CDs as with a CD burner.
It will also read any DVD (also DVD-R/-RW/+R/+RW, but not -RAM) and CD, so you don't really need another optical drive, but it's recommended to have an extra reading drive.

And with DVD burning, well, the Pioneer is a minus burner (DVD-R/-RW). Unless you're really dead set to that format I'd reconsider that, as there is a better format out there, the plus format (DVD+R/+RW), supported by way more manufacturers than the "-" format. I don't recommend the Pioneer drive as it's "-" only.
If you are not fully convinced to "+" you can also buy the Sony DRU500A, which is currently the only burner supporting both formats (+ and - ).

RJ

[avx]

so DVD burners can also read CD's, CD-Rw's and all that stuff?

What the draw back, their low speeds?

[RJ]

yep DVD-burners can also read stamped CDs and write to CD-R, CD-RW and High Speed CD-RW.

Yes the CD burning speed on DVD burners isn't as advanced yet as on the CD-only-burners. The fastest DVD burner so far is I believe a 24x10x40x CD-burner. It doesn't support Mt. Rainier and AFIAK no Ultra-Speed CD-RW.
When you get a CD burner you'll get them both.

RJ

[Alienware_Dude]

Hmm, are you sure about "+" burning being superior to "-" burning? I've heard otherwise, and seen the benchmarks to prove it. Back to the topic at hand: if you're not planning on burning anything that won't fit on a CD-R, there is no reason to get a DVD Combo burner; a DVD-ROM and a CD-RW combined will be roughly half the price.

[RJ]

Yes I am very sure. Plus is superior to minus. Can you post a link to those benchmarks ?

For raw speed DVD-R is now equal with DVD+R (both are now at 4x), but DVD+RW is still superior (2.4x and even 4x vs. 2x DVD-RW). But raw speed is not the only factor in which plus is superior. But it'd be nice to see the benchmarks anyway.

RJ

[jbbrown211]

So what would be your recommendation for the best DVD recording drive. (Sony?)

[RJ]

My recommendation would be a good DVD+R/+RW drive, such as the Ricoh 5125A, the Philips 228K, HP dvd200i (all three for 2.4x DVD+R, 2.4xDVD+RW), or the HP dvd300i (for 4x DVD+R, 2.4x DVD+RW).

The Sony, well, is IMHO just for people who are still a bit unsure which format to choose, or if they really know that their particular DVD player won't play a + or a - media but don't want to lose the ability to write to the other media for anything else.
I've read that there are also several problems with the Sony, i.e. it has problems with certain media etc., therefore I recommend a good plus drive as I don't see a future in minus and there is nothing what minus does that plus can't do.

RJ

[Alienware_Dude]

Sorry, I haven't seen any online benchmarks, just in hard copy.

[musicality]

Originally posted by RJ
Yes I am very sure. Plus is superior to minus. Can you post a link to those benchmarks ?

For raw speed DVD-R is now equal with DVD+R (both are now at 4x), but DVD+RW is still superior (2.4x and even 4x vs. 2x DVD-RW). But raw speed is not the only factor in which plus is superior. But it'd be nice to see the benchmarks anyway.

RJ

Well this is the second post that I've read where RJ feels the "+" format is superior to the "-" format. I suppose I only have a limited view on this debate, but have been reading up on the subject also. Is this your opinion that the "+" format is better, or can you substantiate your statement with fact? From my perspective (from within the music industry) the "+" format is considered second fiddle and not even an option to artists who want to be compatable. From my limited reading on the subject, it seems to me that there are two camps (is that the best way to put it?). One camp would be computer users, the other would be what I would consider to be content creators (audio, video, multimedia). RJ, you seem to be harbored in the computer users side of things where as my point of view would come from the content creators side. From my point of view, I would commit professional suicide by using a "+" format burner. I even had the opportunity to witness Philips fall flat on their faces at the NAMM show in Los Angeles when they tried to show how compatable their "+" burners are for DVD-Audio -- by the end of the week long show they never got a disc to play in any equipment except their own and even then the audo sync faultered.

So I guess I see your statement as conjecture and certainly not based on facts. Again, from my limited reading on the subject, it seems to look like the old VHS v. beta war from the mid/late 1970's. I doubt anyone can say (at least right now) with 100% certainty that only one format will win out. Maybe they both will win out, maybe with the advent of the blue laser DVD they will both be considered old dogs by next year.

John.

[RJ]

Hmm. Well, since I haven't done anything with DVD audio I can only speak for data DVD and video DVD.

For Data DVD the DVD+RW's advantage is the background formatting (used for packet writing), and also Mt. Rainier support. Although only a few DVD burners so far support Mt. Rainier, it can be expected that newer DVD burners support it (like CD burners. Now every CD burner is Mt. Rainier equipped). For DVD- there is no plan yet to support Mt. Rainier.
Other than that, there is no advantage of DVD+ over DVD- for data.

Now for the DVD Video, I don't only think about the computer's drive, but also standalone recorders. VHS's quality isn't good enough and S-VHS is too expensive (okay, dvd recorders are very expensive, too, but comparing to S-VHS they are very new and the price comes down to an affordable level). DVD should be the successor of VHS, and a standalone DVD recorder should work as simple as a VHS recorder does, just with DVDs, so you can record original TV quality to DVD. That is the task that DVD-R/-RW just can't do in a comfortable way. Only DVD+R/+RW, due to its extra signal on the disc, that belongs to the lossless linking technology, you can always add another clip while maintaining DVD video compatibility. I mean, you just insert the disc, record on it, eject it and you can play it back on every DVD player that is capable of reading the DVD+RW (and very much players do).
With DVD-RW it's not possible. You can record in "compatible mode" only once. So you insert the DVD-RW and record. And when you stop recording you can't record more on the disc, you rather need to erase the disc in order to record on it again. But it's DVD video compatible, you can watch the DVD-RW in every DVD player that is capable of reading the DVD-RW.
When you choose the other mode, video mode or how it's called, you can record, stop, record again, but then it's not a video DVD anymore, and no dvd player will play it back. Well, that's not the type of recorder I want.
So that is the advantage that DVD+R/+RW offers for standalone recorders. This is called DVD+VR. With the appropriate software you can also use DVD+VR on the PC.
If you don't have or want a DVD recorder in the future you might not care about that, but personally I don't like the idea of having two different formats for standalone recording (which should replace VHS) and PC recording, as normal data burning as you're used to with CDs is also possible with DVD+R and DVD+RW, so you have no disadvantage by using them, so I see no need for the minus format.
I own the HP dvd200i, a DVD+R/+RW burner for almost a year now, and the DVD+R discs work in all DVD players and DVD-ROM drives of my friends and relatives. The DVD+RW discs work in nearly all. One DVD player and one laptop DVD-ROM didn't read them, but all the other player played it back without a hitch. That's what I can tell about my personal experience with the compatibility.
The speed of DVD+R and DVD-R is currently at 4x, DVD-RW is at 2x and DVD+RW is at 2.4x and in some regions of earth there are even 4x DVD+RW available.
You're right, I can't 100% say which format will win, as I'm no wizard. It's just that DVD+R/+RW has the most advantages for data and video, the media is quite cheap (minus media of the same speed class is not cheaper, sometimes even more expensive) and very compatible. Most manufacturers decided for plus and therefore I also see this "Real DVD" campaign in the US as a sign of the few DVD- supporters getting nervous and still trying to push DVD- to the standard, whereas plus has the growing support behind it. Since DVD burners are now quite cheap (they are now the same price I paid for my Plextor CD burner in december of 2000) at least here in Germany we expect the disounters to sell cheap PCs with DVD burners, and they will likely be plus.
But what I also doubt is that by next year a blue laser technology will replace the current DVD. That is something that will take quite a few years, as no DVD player is capable of playing them back, and at least here in Germany there is no HDTV, so no real necessity for blue laser, and there are already three different formats out there. If even DVD- vs DVD+ isn't finished yet, I can't imagine that the battle of the three blueray technologies will decide soon.

RJ

[musicality]

So in essence, your statement that the "+" format is better is conjecture and opinion. Maybe you should phrase it that way when responding to people. And I only say that constructively as I am in the process of researching a DVD burner. I have been doing my homework on this for about 1 week now. Part of my research was at other forums such as this one. The moment I mentioned that I wanted information on the subject, I recieved loads of opinions but no concrete evidence.

I suppose the best way of looking at this issue of two formats to to take a moment and consider what the buyer is looking for. I have no doubts that the "+" format is better for computer-related uses. But my research shows that although the "-" format does not have flexability of writing that the "+" format does, in terms of video playback and DVD-Audio, the "-" format is by far the better choice (if for nothing else but compatability's sake). In reality, I am starting to believe that the "+" format exists soley because a few companies do not want to pay the royalties for DVD technology.

John.

[RJ]

So you still think that DVD-R/-RW is better for video playback ? Well, I can tell you that it's not true, as ever player was able to playback my DVD+R.
For PC and video, DVD+R/+RW is the best choice. For DVD audio, well, since I have nothing to do with it, I can't say anything about it, but if DVD-R/-RW would win then we will have bad standalone recorders and I doubt anyone want to have such a complicated recorder.
And about compatibility: I just don't get it how a media, developed and accepted by the DVD Forum, is not able to be 100% compatible. That applies to both DVD-R and DVD-RW. DVD+R isn't worse when it comes to compatibility, and DVD+RW is even more compatible than DVD-RW, so how can DVD-R/-RW be better for video than DVD+R/+RW ? Simple answer: It's not.
Otherwise I should have problems with my own video DVD+R, but they work excellent. DVD-R can't be any better.

IMHO, the + format exists because the - format is not good enough for exactly this video recording and compatibility task. And that's true. DVD-R/-RW being the standard, no, I wouldn't like that, that can't be the future for DVD. DVD just does not deserve that. And how comes that DVD+R/+RW is so successful ? The "-" format is now over 3 years old but DVD+R/+RW wouldn't even have had a chance if DVD-R/-RW would have made it as standard. But as you can see, DVD+R/+RW is already very popular in the PC sector and I'm sure it will be so in the standalone recordings sector. Only thing I can't tell you is about music. It'd be a pity if there are really problems with DVD+R/+RW and music as it will give DVD-R/-RW a longer life and eventually the format war might never turn out.

RJ

[musicality]

But this is still your opinion, right? Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I still have not seen anything that compels me to say one is better than the other. If the "+" format's only claim to fame is that it is multisession with the ability to write part of a video, come back and write another part, well I don't think that means much to the general consumer.

And there is an entire industry that uses and will continue to use the "-" format. Every content creator I've worked with in studios and production houses from Chicago to Grand Rapids and Lansing to Detroit (and elsewhere) all use the "-" format. I was just talking the other day to a associate at C2 Media up in Grand Rapids and he was telling me about the horrors of the "+" format from their perspective. They had delievered a DVD+ to Chysler for a video montage of the Liberty to be shown at the autoshow in Detroit. The DVD+ wouldn't play on any DVD player Chrysler brought in. C2 was in quite a bind with that (a production intern had incorrectly used the "+" format rather than the "-" format. So I'm not at all convinced one is better than the other.

[Xayd]

Per the couple of studies I've seen done over roughly 1000 standalone DVD players, DVD-R discs played in 89% of them and DVD+R played in 83% of them.

The + format does have some extra abilities assuming you only wanna use the final discs on a PC, but for use in creating video DVDs for use in standalone DVD players, the numbers don't lie, -R plays in more players.

My real problem with the + format is the proprietary error correction chip that's included in the drives. There has been little improvement or explanation from Phillips or any of the other +R backers about the decreased compatibility that comes with + media and standalone players, but you can bet your last buck they want us all paying royalties to them for those error correction chips in all of our DVD burners and players for the infinite future. THAT's why the + format needs to not go very far for the best of all involved. It's Betamax all over again. We don't need a handful of companies controlling an entire media format and the hardware used to write to it that the rest of us are forced to use.

Jbbrown, the Pioneer drives are fine if you decide to go with a DVD-RW burner. I have the DVR-104 model (last year's, there's a newer 4x model, the 105/A05 now I think it is) and it works great for all formats I've tried on it.

The approximately 50 DVDs I've burned so far have no issues at all playing in the 4 different brands of standalone DVD players that I've tried them in.

Do be wary of cheap media if you get into DVD burning however, there's some really crappy blank discs out there. The best "bulk" brand out there is Ritek, you can get the 1x disks for about 90 cents apiece now.

[glc]

This is getting so crazy that if I were in the market for a DVD burner I think I would have to get a drive capable of both plus and minus. Sounds like the "war" is just starting.

[jbbrown211]

The question would be this: IS there a drive that is capable of both + and -. If so, that would probably be the drive to go for, right?

[glc]

Sony DRU500A, good luck finding one, they are either backordered everywhere or discontinued with an improved model coming out, I haven't figured out which yet. I hear that NEC has a +/- model that exists or is coming.

[jbbrown211]

So do you think I should just hang tight until the latest comes out with + and -. Also, do you know how much the Sony DRU500A retails for? Just curious

[glc]

Refurbs go for $300 and new ones go for $350.

[jbbrown211]

Thanks. Stupid question: Can you simply make a copy of a DVD video using these drives. (Example if I wanted to copy my DVD of Fellowship of the Ring for my friend)

[Xayd]

It's not that simple.

There are 2 formats for pressed DVDs. DVD-5 (max capacity just over 4.3 gigs) and DVD-9 (max capacity about 8 gigs).

The vast majority of newer DVDs are DVD-9. There will likely never be a DVD-9 home burner, you'll be limited to 4.3 gigs per blank DVD.

So you're looking at having to break down the movie, re-encode the video at a lower bitrate, and put it all back together afterwards.

If that sounds like a fun hobby, go ahead and get one. If you want a point and click solution to copy DVD to DVD you'll probably be disappointed.

[jbbrown211]

Sounds a little too complicated for me.
So basically, you can't copy a full length retail DVD movie to a blank DVD via a computer drive? The reason for this is basically the sheer size of most of the newer DVD videos; the blank ones that are available don't have enough space?

[RJ]

But this is still your opinion, right?

No, when I said that all players of my friends played DVD+R it's a fact, not a wish. And it's also fact that the easiness of recording with a standalone isn't possible with DVD-R/-RW. But of course it's my opinion that such complicated recorders like DVD-R/-RW recorders will fail, as that's not the device a normal home user wants. I own a DVD+R/+RW drive and I have experiences with it when it comes to DVD video, and it is very compatible. What else can I say than DVD+R played everywhere, and DVD+RW failed on 3 devices.

And nope, you can't just copy video DVD to blank DVD (no matter if it's + or -) if it's a DVD-9
As said, most video DVDs are dual layer, carrying 7.95 GB, whereas a DVD-5 is single layer, carrying 4.38 GB.

Sony DRU500A is the only dualformat burner. NEC wanted to release one, but delayed it two times already. It's now expected for March. So either it'll finally appear in march or delayed further. Currently NEC makes only DVD+R/+RW burners.

RJ

[jbbrown211]

If I was primarily interested in creating backups for my DVD videos, and knew how to rip and record it at the lower bitrate, would the "+" format be better. The pricetag for Sony's DRU500A is a bit too hefty for me. For video purposes, I want to make sure that the "+" would be better suited for that application.

[jbbrown211]

Anyone have some concrete info to help me with my post above? Looking at the "+" format for DVD burners, want to make sure I don't get the wrong format and regret it.

[Xayd]

If your only use is backing up DVD video the - format has better compatibility with existing standalones. Yes the plus format has some additional functionality when only used with a PC, but more compatible in standalones it is not.

There are tests and stats at http://www.vcdhelp.com

Roughly 83 percent of the existing standalones play +R versus 89 percent of -R.

[jbbrown211]

Thanks for the link. I would probably use it for some additional things, but primarily for backing up DVD video.

[RJ]

When I have more time I will finally look for the other statistic where DVD-R has a compatibility of about 70% and DVD+R of about 90%.

So much for statistics. DVD-R is *NOT* more compatible than DVD+R. That's just not true. Period.

RJ

[bailey]

SONY DRU-500AX

DVD+-RW+-R/CD

comp usa has several on the shelf here in kc, just bought one last week $289.00

[jbbrown211]

If you had one of these Sony burners that support both, does it automatically write both, or do you have to let it know which format you want to use?

[glc]

JB: Forum usage guideline #9:

Members are not permitted to use this forum as a means to share or distribute copyrighted software, licenses, license numbers, registration information, warez software, cracks, key generators, viruses, DVD ripping information, or any information which promotes or instructs on any of these activities. Any material which in any way aids in the destruction of property, property rights, or causes harm, damage, loss of time or work, or allows entry into computer hardware, software or networks is strictly prohibited.

Copying a commercial DVD to give to someone else is a definite copyright violation.

[Tuf]

Every time I think I'm about ready to purchase a DVD Burner this same issue is debated here. Then I'm confused again and decide to wait. I'm not entirely sure I could go wrong with either one because I would mostly use it for data. But I'm sure the day would come I would like to make a Video DVD. From what I have read and the arguements that have been made I think I am leaning towards the "-" format.

I have no experience with the "+" format. The only experience I have with the "-" format is I have played three discs my brother inlaw made on all three of our home DVD players and they worked just fine. One is a Panasonic that seems to play anything you put in it. One is a Toshiba that is nearly as good. The last one is a relatively cheap GE model that is a little touchier about what it will play. All three played the burned discs without a hitch.

They also worked fine in the PC DVD drives we have. So I think the compatibility issue is fine at least as far as we are concerned. My only concern is I don't want to buy a drive and burn a bunch of discs in a format that may become obsolete very soon. That's why I'm not a proud DVD burner owner at this point.

[TwoRails]

Jumping in very late here.... but, Tuf, that's why I just got the Sony. Now I don't have to worry if I made the right choice or not. Seems like the "-" and the "+" thing is as bad as the AMD / Intel thing. Haven't burned any movies yet, but it sure works good as a very, very, very large floppy!!! LOL

TwoRails

[Tuf]

That Sony is nice I just haven't seen one in stock anywhere since they came off of that $350 price.

[RJ]

OK, first statistic that I found:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pioneer/CDA/CompanyOverview/PressDetails/0,1479,92226,00.html

That one shows DVD+R and DVD-R have the same compatibility and DVD+RW is more compatible than DVD-R ;)
Now everyone can decide which statistic to believe. I'll look for a couple more, don't worry :D

Also just for info for anyone who believes a statistic too much: Comopatibility also depends on the media used. When a player does not play back a low quality DVD+R it's not said that it won't play back DVD+R at all.

And there are 2 more companies who announced "+" burners, Atrec and another one I can't remember the name. They will introduce 4x DVD+R and 4x DVD+RW burners, whereas DVD-RW is still at 2x only.
Also Philips showed a Serial ATA DVD+R/+RW burner. No native S-ATA yet (only with a bridge), but well, DVD-R/-RW has nothing so far. . .

RJ