MultiMedia v 0.0

[jurassicpc]

Hi!
The discussion that started in General Discussion under the thread Video Forum? is being moved to this thread. Basically, this is a mini forum on video editing, digital editing and streaming video; hence the name MultiMedia. There are no resident experts. Everyone with an interest is welcome.

I'm starting this off until the real Video or MultiMedia Forum comes into place, but please remember we'll be learning and exploring together; hence v 0.0. At the moment I don't think any of us could handle Multimedia 101:D

Let me recap: my system is old but updated and working well. The editing software I use is Adobe Premiere 5.1. There are much later versions out but I doubt my system would gain any benefit from using them. I'll update Premiere when I build new system. Until then, it works! I use Pinnacle's miro video DC30 Plus for my capture card.

Since I started working with my video editing system, there have been tremendous advances in software and video capture devices. One example is the firewire devices. I don't know much about them yet, but think they should be explored before anyone decides on system and software.

With Premiere 5.1, I'm able to capture vhs, svhs and other analog video formats. The capture card digitizes the video footage and then I can go to work. Premiere offers a titling system too. It allows addition of titles, lower third graphics (identifying tags) and all kinds of text overlays. The number and type of transitions offers a wonderful range of effects and layers when shifting between frames or scenes. Premiere also gives me the option of saving to various analog video formats (vhs, etc.) as well as digital formats.

My system set-up was not cheap when I had it built in 1999, and is probably still not cheap. I would only recommend getting something this high end if you're seriously into the video editing business or if you need to produce broadcast quality output.

For home movies and videos there are a number of less expensive packages out which allow the user to produce a pretty good quality product. Staples, OfficeMax and computer stores have a number on offer. I'll do some surfing to come up with specific names and specs. Feel free to add and research yourselves. We'll learn more that way.

TwoRails: Nonlinear can be cheaper than the traditional editing suite linear method. It can also be much easier and require less expensive equipment. Because of capture, rendering, or encoding workloads however, you need a fast processor. I'm getting along with a 350MHz processor and plan most of my rendering and encoding for overnights. The same goes for when I copy DVD movies -- encoding takes a long time at my processor speed. Again, I plan it for overnight usually. You also need a hard drive that can achieve a constant 7200rpm at least, to prevent frame dropping.

If you're considering purchasing video editing software, ask yourself what your goal is. If broadcast or commercial videos then high-end software and capture devices are your best road to get results people will want to pay for. If you want to produce better home movies or videos, or just aren't sure, some of the digital editing packages offered by Canon (and others I can't recall at the moment) will most likely be the better investment. You should also take into account additional hardware, if any, your chosen software will require.

I know firewire has made a difference in video editing/capture. Does anyone have hands on experience or research experience to help us learn more?

Audio will also play an important part in video and multimedia production. If you know even a little about it, you will be helping out. Anyone with video streaming experience and/or reference resources for internet video streaming, please speak up.

Again, I'm just kicking this off until the formal video forum is set. Letting me be the only research/reference/resource would be extremely one-faceted and detrimental. So jump on in -- it's wide open.:D If we don't ask questions, we won't find answers.

'Can we talk?' LOL

[Nuclear Krusader]

Jurassicpc, why don't you contribute with an article now that Mr. Drisley is requiring writters? You seem to be knowledgeable in this matter.

[jurassicpc]

Not sure my knowledge base is deep enough or current enough. I'll give suggestion serious thought. I just don't want to mislead anyone. Thanks,
Andrea

[Force Flow]

Originally posted by jurassicpc
Audio will also play an important part in video and multimedia production. If you know even a little about it, you will be helping out. Anyone with video streaming experience and/or reference resources for internet video streaming, please speak up.

I've been trying to set-up streaming on a sever. Mostly research stuff at this point after experement 1 downloaded, not streamed. :p

Audio? I'm working on a review on an audio program right now. ;)

Speaking of software, I've had some experience with Premiere 6.0 (all digital, so far).

[jurassicpc]

Originally posted by force_flow2002
I've been trying to set-up streaming on a sever. Mostly research stuff at this point after experement 1 downloaded, not streamed. :p

Audio? I'm working on a review on an audio program right now. ;)

Speaking of software, I've had some experience with Premiere 6.0 (all digital, so far).

Can you point me to reference source or website for more info on video streaming? Or help me understand the process? I know it exists and that's about all. Do you work on audio alone, audio with video, or both? Keep me posted on audio program review please?

What type of projects have you edited with Premiere? I've been editing my shows that were cablecast on neighborhood access channel. I want to set up a site where families can log on and watch episodes of their choice at time of their choice.

Hope you stay subscribed and vocal, you broaden the knowledge base. Thanks
Andrea

[Force Flow]

Here's some streaming sites:
http://service.real.com/help/library/guides/production/realpgd.htm
http://www.realnetworks.com/products/media_delivery.html

Right now, I've just been trying to keep it simple with just audio. If and when I get it to work, I'll add video.

Projects in Premiere? Some short films I created and some family homw videos.

I plan to stick around for a while. Haven't found a better place on the net. ;)

[jurassicpc]

checking those sites out now. Thanks:)

[Mac Medic]

Firewire was created as a capture device for DV. Analog input requires a video capture card to digitize the media where as DV is digitized in the camera so all you need is a fast way to transfer the digitized footage to the PC, hence firewire. The prerequesite fast HDD still applies as dropped frames do occur with firewire. You can also use FW to preview your work from many NLE programs either in the camera of through the camera to an external monitor.

[Force Flow]

I've never gotten a dropped frame when using firewire. If you have a fast enough comp, it's very rare that it ever happens.

[Mac Medic]

But it does happen. While capturing for Blood Bath we lost a few frames here and there with a dual 800 G4, so it can happen. It's just something you have to try to prevent with a fast HDD thats all.

[Force Flow]

What software were you using to capture the film?

[Mac Medic]

We capture video using a number of programs. Final Cut Pro, Premier 6.0, i-movie and final cut express. It's not a problem, it's quite normal. Dual 800 G4, G3 powerbook, 800mhz i-book, amd 1600+ and 1.7 p4 all have dropped frames. Only occasionally, but it does happen. Bear in mind we capture to FW drives, Not to internal IDE HDD's. Like I said, it's not a problem, maybe 1 frame in 20-30,000.

[Force Flow]

That's not bad. Especially for external drives.

[jurassicpc]

If I'm understanding you correctly oem_guy_2002, if I'm still working with analog as well as digital footage, firewire would not capture analog footage?

[Mac Medic]

Thats correct. For Analog you still need a capture card.

[jurassicpc]

Originally posted by oem_guy_2002
Thats correct. For Analog you still need a capture card.

Would it be feasible to set up a system with both a video capture card and firewire?

[Force Flow]

Yes. The video capture feature may be a little expensive, though.

[jurassicpc]

Originally posted by force_flow2002
Yes. The video capture feature may be a little expensive, though.

Planning for my first build. Already have video capture card and software, would move it to new machine.

Have been checking out sites you recommended. Have also searched for user groups with RealSystem G2 experience. So far no luck. If I'm understanding material I've been reading correctly, I need to have a virtual site to upload to after I've created the file. I tried downloading software FreeSSH to set up virtual site, but I'm lost as far as activating it. Am downloading Helix Producer Basic now to practice creating video streaming.

Video editing was a lot easier in the good old days:D :D

[Force Flow]

Here's another article I found a day or two ago:
http://www.webmasterbase.com/article/26

[glc]

The great thing about Firewire is that it's not single purpose like an analog video capture card. It's an all-purpose high speed interface. I have a customer that uses Firewire hard drives to transport data from his office to his home and back - and when you are talking about 20 gigs of data it's the fastest way to do it.

[Xayd]

I still can't believe you held onto your P2 so long Jurassicpc, I can see where you would be planning encoding as an overnight ordeal :p.

I'm impatient with my machine taking 3/4 of real time to encode MPEG-2 streams...

[Mac Medic]

Just a little software info. Premier 6.5 now has real time effects preview :)

[musicality]

Originally posted by oem_guy_2002
Thats correct. For Analog you still need a capture card.

I was under the impression that if you have a digital video camcorder that most if not all of them offer a pass through on their analog inputs. That would allow a analog signal to pass through the digital camcorder's firewire output.

I could be wrong since my knowledge base is in audio and music. Maybe I'll ask Audiyoda (Craig) later today. We are meeting for lunch around 12:30 in Lansing.

John.

[jurassicpc]

Force_flow: Thanks. Looks like I need to add an understanding of website building in order to get video streaming going. Like, I thought this was gonna be easy, man!:D

glc: I've been reading up on firewire. Thanks for confirming and extending understanding. Firewire will definitely become a part of my new build.:)

Xayd: Yes, and I still use analog camcorders. Neighborhood access producers are volunteers, we don't get paid. We pay for the privilege of using access in membership fees, crew pay, tape costs, show sets, etc etc etc. I'm funding the cost of my shows out of my pocket. I don't have the luxury of switching equipment when the old stuff still works. Unlike other access centers, my access foundation is just coming in to the digital age. Therefore analog and its requirements still largely rule. I've learned patience. "When working on a shoe string, make sure it's a long one" :D

oem_guy: Good news. Just wish I could be sure my dinosaur system could give me full benefit of update. Definitely on my first build. :cool:

musicality: Unfortunately, I'm still working with analog equipment all the way (except for dvd copying). I'd be interested in Audiyoda's answer, though. Maybe the moneytree fairy will make it possible for me to upgrade in a major way and soon.:D

[Force Flow]

Originally posted by oem_guy_2002
Just a little software info. Premier 6.5 now has real time effects preview :)
That's great! :)

Originally posted by jurassicpc
Thanks. Looks like I need to add an understanding of website building in order to get video streaming going. Like, I thought this was gonna be easy, man!

If it were easy, then everyone would be doing it. :p

[jurassicpc]

Originally posted by force_flow2002
If it were easy, then everyone would be doing it. :p
At least I'm persistent (my friends say 'hard-headed'). With all this wonderful support, I should get it together within this next millenium:D

[Force Flow]

Persistance is good sometimes. Especially when trying to make something work like streaming. I'll let you know when I unravel the mystery of streaming. :p

[jurassicpc]

Originally posted by force_flow2002
Persistance is good sometimes. Especially when trying to make something work like streaming. I'll let you know when I unravel the mystery of streaming. :p
Ditto!:D

[Force Flow]

Ah, while I'm thinking of it, I've got a question for you. What's the difference between VHS and SVHS? Are SVHS tapes a different size than VHS tapes? All I know is that I've heard SVHS is higher quality.

[jurassicpc]

Originally posted by force_flow2002
Ah, while I'm thinking of it, I've got a question for you. What's the difference between VHS and SVHS? Are SVHS tapes a different size than VHS tapes? All I know is that I've heard SVHS is higher quality.
Same size tape, 1/2". Quality is better in majority of cases. VHS can be played and edited in SVHS edit decks, but not the reverse. Issue of quality can also be affected by camcorder used. In my case, I got quality equal to SVHS using my consumer VHS camcorder so I never bothered to change cameras. You really see the difference with studio and professional camcorders in overall quality and in SVHS quality.

There are 3/4" tapes but they are purely for broadcast or cable cast and digital is rapidly replacing them for quality.

[Mac Medic]

I'm in the process of trying to set up a streaming server for the Movie. I have win2k server and wm server installed, the video is converted and ready to go, just cant get the damn thing to work. When i link to the file, even on my LAN i get a "cant find server" message. I started another thread about this a while back, figured i would bring it here. I'm gonna keep away from Real, as most people already have WMP and i dont want them to have to download anything else extra. So, any ideas. I have tried HTTP streaming and the regular way, whatever that was called, cant remember off hand.

[jurassicpc]

Will do some reading and searching and see what I come up with.

[Floppyman]

Originally posted by oem_guy_2002
I'm in the process of trying to set up a streaming server for the Movie. I have win2k server and wm server installed, the video is converted and ready to go, just cant get the damn thing to work. When i link to the file, even on my LAN i get a "cant find server" message. I started another thread about this a while back, figured i would bring it here. I'm gonna keep away from Real, as most people already have WMP and i dont want them to have to download anything else extra. So, any ideas. I have tried HTTP streaming and the regular way, whatever that was called, cant remember off hand.

That's a cool idea. I'd be interested to hear how exactly you set it up once you get it working. TIA.

[Force Flow]

Hey oem_guy_2002,
How long have you been working on/with streaming?

[M. A. Dockter]

and...without futher delay....

[Force Flow]

Thanks Doc!

Boyoboy... this is the biggest trill I've had all day!!! :D

[jurassicpc]

Originally posted by oem_guy_2002
I'm in the process of trying to set up a streaming server for the Movie. I have win2k server and wm server installed, the video is converted and ready to go, just cant get the damn thing to work. When i link to the file, even on my LAN i get a "cant find server" message. I started another thread about this a while back, figured i would bring it here. I'm gonna keep away from Real, as most people already have WMP and i dont want them to have to download anything else extra. So, any ideas. I have tried HTTP streaming and the regular way, whatever that was called, cant remember off hand.
Still searching. What is your OS? Have found some references to similar problems, but most are Windows XP or Linux. If I find something, would like it to be relevant.

[jurassicpc]

Originally posted by M. A. Dockter
and...without futher delay....
Did I miss something?:)

[jurassicpc]

Oops! Never mind, I just noticed change. My bad.

[TwoRails]

Hi jurassicpc and Everybody !! :D

Between all that's been going on, I just now "found" this thread! Jurassicpc, thanks for the info in the first post!! :)

I agree with Nuclear Krusader: why not submit an article? The worst that could happen is they don't like it, but if they do, you can help more people that way!!

A lot of people mention Premier..... Am I the only Media Studio Pro user??

On Firewire and dropped frames: I've only "captured" a couple hours of DV footage using Firewire, but have Never dropped a frame. And that's before my update, on a 1800+ system with ATA100 drives. Capturing analog thru my game card (Geforce 3) at 640x480 and 720x480 would drop an average of 1 -2 frames per approx. 10 minutes of capture (forgot exactly how long my test clip was...). That was after updating to ATA 133 drives. For my home movies, this is more than acceptable. :) but for the special ones (like my wedding video) I'll copy to DV first, then capture thru firewire.

Which brings up dual analog / firewire capture machines: depends on the type of analog capture you want. For home movies and other non-pro stuff, buying a good game card with Video In/Out (VIVO) is not much more money than a game card without. So, I'll always have both. If you want a dedicated capture card, then it's more.

On the Apple thing: (no, no wars please as I am just passing info along) Maximum PC's latest issue just compared 3 dual proc rigs: Apples *best* as supplied by apple against a dually AMD running (going from memory) 2 gig procs. The AMD spanked the Apple. The third machine was Intel, which in turned spanked the AMD, but the Intel was running 2.8 gig procs.... daaaa.


Nice to have an A/V forum, ah?? I like it :D

TwoRails

[jurassicpc]

Originally posted by TwoRails
Between all that's been going on, I just now "found" this thread! Jurassicpc, thanks for the info in the first post!! :)

I agree with Nuclear Krusader: why not submit an article? The worst that could happen is they don't like it, but if they do, you can help more people that way!!

Nice to have an A/V forum, ah?? I like it :D
Thanks for compliment! and Yes!, great to have A/V forum:D

[Mac Medic]

Im running 2kserver with IIS installed. Supposedly I am able to install windows media services and make it dependant on w3svc for http streaming. Problem is I cant get it to work outside my LAN. It is streaming, but as my site is on the same server it may be a problem with the URL formatting. I need to link to my site, then from there to a .asx file which inturn links to the video for streaming on the WMS Server via http. What a nightmare. Either I will build a dedicated server of go with Darwin Sreaming Server and use quicktime instead. I'll try to keep you posted, unless i kill myself 1st.

[jurassicpc]

Okay, we're way beyond my experience level now and you have my admiration for persistence. I'll keep reading up and searching, but don't hold breath waiting for me. ;)

I do know you'll solve this, oem_guy_2002, and look forward to progress posts.

In the meantime, thank you for the opportunity to learn more about the nuts and bolts of videostreaming. I'm with you in spirit, if not in knowledgebase. :)
Blessings,
Andrea

[edit] I'm more than willing anytime you think a sounding board would help.

[jurassicpc]

I know this probably won't help you oem_guy_2002, but for those like myself who are still working to understand video streaming, I'm listing a few of the search and resource results I've run across recently:

Streaming Media Search Results
http://www.videolan.org/
http://archive.dstc.edu.au/RDU/staff/jane-hunter/video-streaming.html
http://www.streamdemon.co.uk/
http://www.streamalot.com/
http://www.streamload.com/
http://www.streamingmagazine.com/howto.asp
http://www.wainhouse.com/articles/article_a.html
http://mpeg4ip.sourceforge.net/
http://desktopvideo.about.com/library/weekly/aa081802a.htm
http://desktopvideo.about.com/library/weekly/bltip08.htm
http://is.asu.edu/r&d/video/
http://www.cultivate-int.org/issue4/video/


Books on Streaming Video @ Amazon.com
The Streaming Media Handbook:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0130358134/ref=pd_sim_books_3/102-1174697-4660113?v=glance&s=books
Streaming Media Bible
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764536508/ref=pd_bxgy_bb/102-1174697-4660113?v=glance&s=books

Free Video Software and Trial Downloads
http://desktopvideo.about.com/cs/freebiesutilities/index.htm

Video Streaming Contact
http://groups.msn.com/VideoStreaming/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=1&ID_Message=26

Hope it's useful,
Andrea

[TwoRails]

Thanks for the links, for the links, for the links, jurassicpc!!! LOL :D

That happened to me the other day! Post a new thread and wound up with three, somehow!! :)

TwoRails

[glc]

I know what happened - you posted at the time the database was being backed up - the forum goes unresponsive for a few minutes. I'll delete the extra posts. If you ever hit the Submit button and nothing happens, just be patient, don't keep hitting it.

[jurassicpc]

Two-Rails: yw, yw, yw! I'd be interested in your take on the info from any of the links. :D

glc: Oops! :o Thanks for info and for removing extra posts. I thought it was my internet connection goofing. Will remember for future.

Everyone: Feedback on relevance of links to your needs appreciated. Would a summary of the information be more helpful, or is this where an article might come in with the links for reference?

Still feeling my way here and don't want to get banned for terminal ignorance :D :D
Andrea

[jurassicpc]

Like the proverbial bad penny, I'm back. I've ordered the two books on streaming video and should receive them sometime next week. In the meantime, I've been searching and surfing and have run across some sites with interesting information on file structures (CDs and DVDs) plus other digital technology stuff:

http://www.disctronics.co.uk/technology/index.htm
http://www.mpeg.org/MPEG/DVD/File/File.html
http://www.dvd-magazin.de/TECHNIK/VT/VOLUME.HTM
** http://nickyguides.digital-digest.com/dvd-structure.htm
http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/glone/employees/joerg.schilling/private/dvd-video.html
http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/dvd-structure.htm
http://www.dvdmadeeasy.com/glossary/index.html

** This site was really clear for me, but while others may duplicate some info, their approaches are different and may make better sense to someone else.

Until later then,
Take care and God bless!
Andrea