Florida RATS con game!

[clydefo]

Public Fraud Warning:<p>I don't have all the details yet but I'm hearing about a massive fraud in south Florida, apparently in Palm Beach County. It seems that a huge number of the citizens, especially the elderly were tricked into mistakenly marking some kind of important document yesterday. I understand that unlike all the other documents used throughout Florida, the Palm Beach documents appear to be deliberately designed to encourage mistakes in some sort of selection process in which they were engaged.<p>
This might have involved an extermination racket controlled by State Officials, I've heard that rats are involved, but like I say, I don't have all the details yet. <p>My impression is that this will wind up in the Florida Courts, which have the power to make sure everyone is treated fairly, even if part of the process has to be repeated.<p>Anyone else heard about this? More later as I get more details but I gotta go nurse my big toe. In the dark, I stubbed it on my Gore yard sign, which is still out since election day. But none of that, I don't want to get into politics here.

[LawyerRon]

Yes,
I heard about it. What's more, the perpetrator is a Democrat! A sweet female individual who thought she was doing the right thing.

[bob]

I support Gore - for all those who did not know. ;)

Fraud is incorrect.

Lets wait and find out - It is not good for any of us to blow things up. There are processes to follow and we must let them happen and then accept the result.

[keithr]

Gentlemen:

There is no fraud envolved here. See my post in this thread...

http://206.161.202.65/forum/showthread.php?threadid=5751&pagenumber=2

Keith

[clydefo]

LawyerRon,<p>My understanding of this situation is sketchy, I suffered quite a fright yesterday that had me so unsettled that I've not paid as much attention to current events as I usually do. When you referred to <b>"A sweet female individual who thought she was doing the right thing"</b>, were you perhaps talking about a representative of a private organization who was deceived into approving the format of a document, without realizing the implications? Or something else? You mentioned that she is a Democrat. I hope this doesn't involve politics.

[bob]

The ballot

http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/palmbeach/pbcballot.jpg

Note that the Reform Party and the Socialist party got very high votes compared to other similar counties.

Imagine a senior with a sample ballot that has been marked prevoiusly on top of the right page covering up the right page.

I do not know if the sample ballot was in the same format as the actual ballot. Sample ballot could have been different.

Best to wait and watch and not get out of hand.

[bob]

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/ELECTION_WatchdogPart6001108.html

Well the problem may not go away easy. Hope it does.

[clydefo]

Well, this situation has certainly developed into an interesting legal question, hasn't it? This quote from a news story about the Florida law illustrates that opinions don't matter much, there is specific law that empowers and encourages judges to rectify electoral mistakes, especially when they might affect the outcome.<p><b>"Judges have power to overturn elections<br>
WILLIAM MARCH<br>
of The Tampa Tribune<br>
TAMPA - Under a 1998 court ruling, Florida judges have broad authority to invalidate elections or order new elections in cases in which fraud, or even unintentional error, results in flawed outcome.
``The criteria are very broad, almost completely undefined, and they grant state judges a great deal of discretion,´´ said Steve Gey, a constitutional law expert at the Florida State University College of Law.
Gey said if irregularities are found in Tuesday's vote for president, proving they affected the outcome wouldn't be hard, because the race is so close.
...The standards say the judge can overturn an election if there was fraud or irregularities that ``adversely affect the sanctity of the ballot and the integrity of the election.´´
Because the election was so close, and could so easily be affected by any proven irregularity, Gey said, ``that last criteria is almost a giveaway.´´
Unintentional errors as well as fraud can qualify, Gey said.
If the election were found to be invalid, Gey said, the likely remedy would be a new election. It could be held just in the county where the irregularities occurred, or statewide, depending on the circumstances."</b>
<a href="http://tampatrib.com/MGAKOB7XBFC.html">http://tampatrib.com/MGAKOB7XBFC.html</a>

[LawyerRon]

Clydefo,
I was referring to Ms. Lepore, the Election Supervisor in Florida who thought the ballot format would be more helpful to seniors. She also happens to be a Democrat.

[glc]

This is the first sentence in the other thread - "Let this be the ONLY political thread in the Gen forum to be used any longer."

Please lock this thread.

[LawyerRon]

I agree. Shut it down.

[clydefo]

I disagree. Anyone who wishes to discuss something other than the legal matters here can go post elsewhere or start a new thread.<p>I'm hearing that the format of the ballot itself is illegal under Florida law. Anyone know more about this?

[LawyerRon]

clydefo,
Your initial post declared there was “massive fraud”. Do you know the “elements” of a fraud case? What’s the burden of proof in a fraud case? Fraud is a crime requiring the “trier of fact” to reach a conclusion of law based on the finding of certain facts. The facts I’ve seen do not suggest all elements of fraud are met. But all the facts are not known. You and I are not the “triers of fact” here. So your inexcusable bias is leading you to a “conclusion” before all facts are known. The only other person I’ve seen take this approach so far is Jesse Jackson.

I personally don’t care which party wins this election. Further, I refuse to argue legal issues like fraud in this forum with non-lawyers because every lawyer knows that “a non-lawyer's legal opinion, like a stopped clock, can only be correct by coincidence”.

[goodcanuck]

KABOOM!!!!!

Damn even I felt and heard the slam on that...and I'm in Canada.

Anyhow - who cares - What ever party gets in it still trudges along at whatever pace the large companies and the rest of the "secret" societies and departments want.


OH yeah i have a really good lawyer joke too...

[clydefo]

LawyerRon,<br>I agree with you that<b>"all the facts are not known"</b>. My initial suspicion of fraud was based on the history of bad elections in that area and the notorious corruption of so many state and local officials. But aside from fraud, it appears that Florida judges have plenty of leeway to order a new election regardless of the cause of the irregularities.<p>It seems to me that argument, about any subject, with anyone, is the fastest way to uncover the truth about that subject. Or about the person.<p>Frankly, I'm amazed that a seemingly informed person would not care who wins the election.