POWs

[Fastfly]

Will this number of I think 12 will rise and how much? Do you think the UN iraqi ambassador is telling the truth about not being harsh and what not?

[Mac Medic]

they have already tortured and murdered
pow's, so i guess not,

[Eaglefeather]

The facts of life in war are very simple fastfly. Usually when we go to war it is against evil governments that could care less about human life or the Geneva Convention. That is part of the reason why we are fighting them.

A soldier, Airman or Sailor of the Allied Forces, that falls into the hands of the enemy usually can expect to be very badly treated. I think most of our soldiers understand that right from the begining, it is a risk of war, just like getting killed.

Of the 12 Marines that were ambushed, I think the ones that were killed outright are the lucky ones. I know I would not want to be in the hands of any of Saddam's people right about now.

All we can do is pray for them.

May the Peace of our Lord Jesus be with them through this peril. Amen.

EF

[Familyman]

I apologize if the pictures were too graphic. I’m not very good at this stuff. I thought they would answer the question. I removed the link.

[Force Flow]

That's inhumane. :mad:

btw, Familyman, you may want to add a disclaimer.

[Familyman]

Yes it is inhumane. I removed the link. I thought the images of our POW’s would answer Fastfly question. Sorry if I offended anyone. That was not my intention.

[Force Flow]

Just as a general rule of thumb, I try to keep my stuff PG-rated. After all, there are younger forum members that visit.

But, don't lose sleep over it, Familyman. ;)

[redbaron_snoopy]

I've just seen on TV tonight footage of dead American soldiers.
Reported 17 dead and a further 5 captured. 2 Apache pilots are also missing after their copter came down. Footage shows 2 helmets on the ground.

[TimPoet]

The maintenance crew from Ft. Bliss that was captured and shown on TV are from the same base as my son who has a 50/50 chance of returning to the area. Pray for him, although I know he will do fine.

[Fastfly]

Thanks Family man...if you could send the link via pm that would be alright.


Yeah but you just wish they would listion. Anyone know what happened was it in one of these "fake" Surrenders?

[Eaglefeather]

According to CNN it was an Iraqi ambush. The convoy took a wrong turn and ended up surrounded by an unknown number of Iraqi troops, possibly the Rebulican Guard.

EF

[Paul Victorey]

According to the president and Blair, the only known mistreatment so far is putting the POWs on television. According to Bush and Blair, televising the POWs amounts to humiliation which is prohibited under Geneva. There's no known reports of torture or murder while as POWs, and there probably won't be until the POWs are recovered, because their testimony is the only way to know if their injuries were sustained during battle or after surrender.

[Mac Medic]

Executed soldiers seem to be good evidence of torture to me, and based on the tortures of the 1st war i imagine they're gonna continue.

[Paul Victorey]

They showed dead soldiers, not necessarily executions -- soldiers die in battle as well as after. It's not wrong for Iraqis to kill our soldiers in battle, just wrong to kill them if they have already surrendered. So what matters, from a Geneva point of view, is how and when the soldiers died.

[Statica]

High time the Geneva convention was updated; should include the ban of propagation of images, videos etc by mass media outlets or ban the access of the mass media outlets to PoWs .. partisan or not. Its equally wrong for CNN or MSNBC to use pictures of surrendering Iraqis (PoWs) as it is for Al Jazeera.

[Mac Medic]

bullets through the head at close range is the theory, and I suppose it is a theory but do you still want to defend these bastards. What if it is true, I imagine you would propose a trial and Jail sentence for the captors, whereas I would propose a public Killing. Obviously the welfare if Iraqi troops is a priority to some.

[Paul Victorey]

So you claim to be against evil people, but then want us to be as evil as they are? "He who would fight monsters must look to himself, that he does not become a monster..."

Personally, I agree Statica, and I think also that Geneva should apply to more situations, with none of this "enemy combattant" loophole crap that our government likes to use to get around having to obey Geneva.

[doctorgonzo]

I agree with Statica as well. In the realm of world public opinion, the U.S. looks pretty silly decrying Iraq for showing videos of American POWs, while our TV news channels do the exact same thing with Iraqi POWs. Believe me, the media in other parts of the world notice this double-standard, and are showing it. If we don't want to hand our enemies ready-made propaganda, we should follow the rules we purport to hold dear.

[Mac Medic]

True, I agree with the double standards statements, but thats no excuse for defending murders executing our troops.

[Paul Victorey]

Yet so far, there is no evidence that POWs have been killed after being taken prisoner. In fact, if they were going to kill POWs, why would they keep ANY alive? I mean, all they would be doing would be creating witnesses to the killing of other POWs. Had they planned on killing POWs, they would have killed every one of them and said they all died in battle.

[Eaglefeather]

I think possibly what the US is disagreeing with is the interview of the POW's, forcing them to give there names on camera. That could be considered humilation. They are being singled out.

I don't believe I have seen any of the Iraq POW's interviewed in public, nor do I recall any individual photo sessions of them. I could be wrong, I don't watch that much TV, only enough to keep updated.

There is a big difference between a long shot of prisoners walking up a road with their hands up and the individual interigation of a prisoner. As I say I think this is what the Government is objecting too.

You are quite right Paul. A civilized society always acts civilized, even in war. The rule of law must take precedence, for without law we only have anarchy. If you stoop to the level of an evil enemy you are no better then they are.

EF

[Statica]

Originally posted by oem_guy_2002
bullets through the head at close range is the theory, and I suppose it is a theory but do you still want to defend these bastards. What if it is true, I imagine you would propose a trial and Jail sentence for the captors, whereas I would propose a public Killing. Obviously the welfare if Iraqi troops is a priority to some.

It isnt about a priority of defending someone else, it is my duty as a free thinking individual, not to be led by someone else's propaganda machine (be it Hussein's or Bush's), it is my duty to believe in something that is borne of the truth; it is also my duty to see that my beliefs are based in morality.

I would submit to you, Sir, that all these regimes and this fanaticism is largely a result of myopic people who cannot see things for what might be fact, or are afraid enough to keep quiet about it.

By the same token, I would of course question what is force fed to me, either by the American mass media or govt. propaganda or be it by Iraqi television and govt. propoganda.

At this stage I agree w/Paul, there is really no corroborating evidence that they have not been killed in battle.

Eaglefeather: I would urge you to check the media outlets of the "embedded" US media. There are a number of them. I can give you one such example, because I really like reading the W.Post : go to washingtonpost.com > War in Iraq (on the right col. - In depth section) and check out the fotografs (I cant post links because they are embedded in Flash). I believe March 22nd had numerous fotografs. The most vivid one I have seen was of 2 Iraqi officers with absolute cowering fear in their eyes at gun point of members of 1st Marine Division. How would you like to be the family of that Iraqi officer to see the fear in his eyes and assume that he was obviously afraid that he was going to be shot to death. All I can see there is about 4 soldiers (can see shadows of more), all with guns; while one Iraqi soldier kneels with his hands on his head and another fallen .. was he shoved there? Was he beaten up? was he going to be shot?

[Mac Medic]

Lets hope so, afterall how many iraqi citizens has he tortured and killed, I imagine it's about time he experiences the same fear he forces on innocent women and children, but of coures, they only follow orders right?. Unfortunately the US abides by the rules of war, unlike this mob. They are cowards that rule by the Gun. And the pacifists in this country seem to support them, like they're human. Look at the way they torture and murder then ask if they are really human.

[Paul Victorey]

So, oemguy, if you were in a nation like that, and your only options were to either be a ruthless guard, and obey orders, or to refuse, and have yourself and your family tortured, how would YOU choose? It's not like even the people who support dictators have a whole lot of choice in the matter. Most of his soldiers are conscripts, not people who choose the military.

[TimPoet]

Originally posted by Statica
Eaglefeather: I would urge you to check the media outlets of the "embedded" US media.

The most vivid one I have seen was of 2 Iraqi officers with absolute cowering fear in their eyes at gun point of members of 1st Marine Division. How would you like to be the family of that Iraqi officer to see the fear in his eyes and assume that he was obviously afraid that he was going to be shot to death. All I can see there is about 4 soldiers (can see shadows of more), all with guns; while one Iraqi soldier kneels with his hands on his head and another fallen .. was he shoved there? Was he beaten up? was he going to be shot? Were they being interviewed like ours were? Were their names being broadcast to the whole world as ours were? Would you please think things through before you post?
You are trying to create an equality between what the enemy does and what we do. IF it turns out that the enemy is wrong and you are siding with them, do you understand the implications of your statements? It is called providing comfort and support to our enemies.
Please ask yourself the right questions before you defend the Iraqi enemy. Unless you just don't really care... but I doubt that is true.
Originally posted by Paul Victorey
So, oemguy, if you were in a nation like that, and your only options were to either be a ruthless guard, and obey orders, or to refuse, and have yourself and your family tortured, how would YOU choose? It's not like even the people who support dictators have a whole lot of choice in the matter. Most of his soldiers are conscripts, not people who choose the military. Paul, a man would do anything, anything to not murder someone. They especially would do anything to not torture. Boys in adult bodies are cowards and if one isn't willing to die for something, even if it means the suffering of your loved ones, then one is nothing but a coward. Men will go to any lengths to not participate in such evil.
I just can't see you slowly bleeding a man to death with a hundred, painful knife wounds you inflicted on him because you weren't noble enough to resist the evil of your commanders. I think you are better than that.

[Paul Victorey]

Tim, everyone thinks they can withstand torture; do you know how few actually can? It's not a matter of being "better than that", it's not a sign of mental weakness that a person can break under torture anymore than it's a sign of physical weakness to be trapped under a collapsing building. It's obvious that all of us have a limit to our physical strength, just as we all have a limit to our ability to resist torture. The strongest man can be crushed to death, and the strongest mind could be broken with torture.

They did psychological studies in which people essentially were ordered by an experimentor to "torture" another person. With nothing more than verbal coercion, over 75% complied fully all the way through the entire experiment, even when the "victim" was screaming and pleading for help.

And when you actually torture the person who will become your guard, you get even better obedience, because nobody can survive torture for very long; even people trained to resist break eventually. Heck, do you know the majority of all kidnap victims who are rescued will defend their kidnappers at first? They are rarely tortured, at least not nearly as badly as a regime like that would, and they become servile.

I'd certainly like to think I could resist torture, and would never break, but I do recognize my limitations -- in all liklihood, I would break under torture and become the servant of my captors. Everyone has a breaking point, and it would be rather foolish of me to expect myself to be any different. I'm not superhuman, I don't possess infinite willpower anymore than I possess infinite physical strength.

[TimPoet]

That is well said and true, Paul, you and I will break under torture in situations of interrogation. But not to become a walking murderer armed like an Iraqi soldier or officer is. If 75% of the people became torturers in that wierd experiment then I'd say that perhaps only 25% of adult males are men. There are things in life that separate the men from the boys and responding properly to evil is one of them.
I think this truth was wonderfully portrayed in that Michael J. Fox movie, Casualties Of War. Only 1 of those soldiers on the patrol where they raped the girl proved to be a man.

[Vlad16]

Originally posted by Statica

At this stage I agree w/Paul, there is really no corroborating evidence that they have not been killed in battle.


Wow, 5 lucky shots, all in the forehead during the course of battle. The coalition should just walk away if the Iraqi soldiers are such good shots.

[glc]

Moderator comment:

Respect, please, folks - and do NOT forget that this is a worldwide forum, not just USA. You are getting a bit rough, Tim.

[TimPoet]

Acknowledged. Sorry.

[Paul Victorey]

Originally posted by Vlad16
Wow, 5 lucky shots, all in the forehead during the course of battle. The coalition should just walk away if the Iraqi soldiers are such good shots.

It's not that surprising to have a lot of head shots, Iraq has a huge number of snipers. Sniping is in fact one of Iraq's main methods of fighting during this war.

[Force Flow]

I don't believe they have the weaponry, military support or gumption to to battle otherwise.

Couldn't really say if that's good or bad...

[edit]: I guess what it really boils down to is which way would the least amount of lives be lost? It all depends on how many and how good the snipers are. Just look at what happened in Washington DC...

[Force Flow]

Hmm... I guess my statement no longer applies because of the recent battle between the two sides...

[ZANEY123]

from what i heard today from a guy that works down at dover air force base that our pow's have been exucuted. I hope it is just hearsay for their family sake.

Zaney123

[Paul Victorey]

I doubt that anyone in the united states truly has information on executed POWs, except possibly the highest brass, but I don't think we'll truly know what happens to POWs until we get some POWs back.

[jessho]

I doubt that anyone in the united states truly has information on executed POWs, except possibly the highest brass, but I don't think we'll truly know what happens to POWs until we get some POWs back.

Five dead soldier with head shots indicates a kill shot after they were wounded or an execution. The terror on the faces of the hostages indicates they witnessed what happened. If Iraq is not torturing these prisoners, why are they not shown in current videos showing their humane treatment? What are they scared of? These are support soldiers without any special combat training after boot camp.

[Paul Victorey]

Five dead soldiers with head shots also could indicate that they walked into a kill zone of Saddam Fedayeen snipers, and ANYONE would be scared s***less as a POW. The Iraqi POWs look every bit as terrified as ours, does that mean we're executing POWs too?

The Red Cross expects to be able to have access to POWs soon, on both sides, so they can act as neutral observers as to the treatment of POWs.

[jessho]

Five dead soldiers with head shots also could indicate that they walked into a kill zone of Saddam Fedayeen snipers, and ANYONE would be scared s***less as a POW. The Iraqi POWs look every bit as terrified as ours, does that mean we're executing POWs too?

The Red Cross expects to be able to have access to POWs soon, on both sides, so they can act as neutral observers as to the treatment of POWs.

Sniper teams don't work that way. The Red Cross, for some strange reason, won't have access to those prisoners. You know that we don't execute P.O.W.'s. unless they try to excape or attack soldiers.

Try some other line of reasoning. The one you are using isn't working.

[Tiretool]

While I do believe that it's conceivable that Iraqi snipers scored head shots on our soldiers, I don't think it's probable. If I were a betting man, my money would be on our soldiers were ambushed and resisted, resulting in them being wounded and then shot in the head point blank range. The ones who had some sense and didn't try to play commando are the ones we saw being questioned. I found the recording of the POWs on the internet, and actually only two of the four who were questioned seemed really scared. Two of them seemed to be holding up quite well, not giving the captors the satisfaction of seeing them show signs of fear. They spoke very clearly and calmly and didn't seem to want to show any sign of being scared.

[drisley]

I wonder if the Red Cross will be objective. It seems so many wish to blame the US for a guys hair being disheveled, yet Saddam's guys put a bullet between someone's eyes and it kind of goes under the radar.

Truth is, these guys are probably safer and better cared for as our POWs than they were working for Saddam, even in peacetime.

[Strider]

While it is shocking and revolting that POW's might have been killed, this is War. Not every Country follows the code of the Geneva Conference, take WWII the Japanese didn't believe in it and did torture/kill POW's. 60 some years later, Japan and the United States have friendly relations with each other. While the Japanese did face war crime trials against these leaders and major perprators, there were many that went unpunished. The same thing is going to happen to those in Iraq that gave orders to kill and torture these POW's. The one thing the United States did wrong is they didn't follow the Golden Rule - "Never underestimate your enemy".

I just hope and pray that this war is over soon, so innocent people won't be killed (This applies to both sides of the war).

[Paul Victorey]

Well, Geneva was specifically created because of WW2, and the atrocities on all sides. During WW2 it was common practice for all sides, including the US, to kill civilians. It was considered a perfectly acceptable strategy in war. Geneva came about specifically because of the human rights abuses by both Axis and Allies during WW2. Hopefully, all nations, including the USA, will decide to fully comply with the Geneva convention and that shameful period of war will be behind us.