chemicals Found

[Byte 2.0]

Ok, they found the smoking Gun, they are flying samples to the US.

Souce CNN news.

[avx]

bout time...:D

[Byte 2.0]

Also, I don't want any help or assistance from France, France has been sittin on the Side lines waiting for something to happen. Offering to help if Saddam used chem or Bio weapons.

Let them continue to sit there, we have already done the work, and we don't need them to come in behind and help reconstruct.

The UN has has over 10 years to find his chem/bio weapons, we knew he has Chem weapons in 1988 when they used them, why do other countries find it so hard to believe that he would have them now. Stands to reason that He would have better ones.

[avx]

I agree...I think America should take a "Forgiven but never forgotten" stance with France. Just let us finish our job and things can get back to normal...

Like messing with their heads...everytime they need something they will always be thinking about how bad the screwed up now, while they are asking the US for it, and with a smug look the US will agree to help in anyway it can. Thats how you operate with style and sophistication...LoL

[Strider]

France has always had a reluctancy to get involved, that is why they failed so miserablely in WWII and they still don't get it even after 60+ years. I firmly believe history does repeat itself if you don't take action to stop it. While I didn't agree with this war (Still have some of my doubts) , I am still glad to be an American and that there is a reason that we elect our leaders to make decisions that we would not take or would be afraid to take. I do think this French thing is being overblown, the French have their opinions and should be respect even if we don't agree with them, plus Germany, Russia, and China also would have vetoed a U.S/Great Britian Resolution if it was brought to a vote, so they weren't the only ones.

[mr krinkle]

Strider I agree on the france part of your post,All of this France bashing has not done us any good,We look like asses and a bully really.<p>I mean some yahoo's in Congress even took French Fries off of the menus in the Diners of Congress. Remember folks France was with us in Gulf War one and had peace keepers in Bosnia when We didnt.

[TimPoet]

France may have been right in the past sometime but they are wrong now.

[mr krinkle]

I just heard TimPoet that the white powder found could be GW's lost stash.

[Paul Victorey]

Originally posted by Strider
France has always had a reluctancy to get involved, that is why they failed so miserablely in WWII and they still don't get it even after 60+ years. I firmly believe history does repeat itself if you don't take action to stop it. While I didn't agree with this war (Still have some of my doubts) , I am still glad to be an American and that there is a reason that we elect our leaders to make decisions that we would not take or would be afraid to take. I do think this French thing is being overblown, the French have their opinions and should be respect even if we don't agree with them, plus Germany, Russia, and China also would have vetoed a U.S/Great Britian Resolution if it was brought to a vote, so they weren't the only ones.

Wait, FRANCE was reluctant to get involved in WW2? France was the FIRST nation (along with Britain) to declare war on Germany, it was the US that took years longer to decide to enter the war.

France's major problem with WW2 was they expected their enemies to attack them where they were strong. They expected the Germans to attack the Maginot line, which was probably an impenetrable defense. But the Germans attacked through the low countries, bypassing the Maginot line, and attacking where France was weak.

[avx]

Paul are you like a history buff or something?...You know this stuff seemingly by heart man;)

Another thing I just remembered...Is it not true that should Hitler had been a better war strategist he very likely could have won...Right there at the end, he would have victories in the bag, but he would pull back for no reason, and against every good judgment from his advisors, giving out troops time to rescramble with allied forces and prepare for the next assault.

I always found that to be a scary though...

[Paul Victorey]

Oh, Hitler should have won. But he was so afraid that his top generals were trying to kill him (many actually were, too) that he had his best military men killed. By the end, he was dictating strategy himself, and he was a terrible strategist. In fact, every bad move that was made in the war was a result of him not listening to his generals.

His major failing points, as far as the war was concerned, were not conquering Britain (he could have easily, at one point, but chose not to push hard, which gave Britain the opportunity to rebuild its airfields and beef up the RAF) and of attacking the USSR too soon. And then of course killing or ignoring his brilliant generals.

[avx]

LoL - They didnt mention the the generals trying to kill him part in the documentary(got to love the history channel:D).

Everyone in Europe would be Spankin Ze Doitch...he he he

[Paul Victorey]

There was at least one attempt on his life by one of his top staff, a suitcase bomb. Most of his staff hated Hitler.

For example, Field Marshall Rommel was one of Hitler's best, but he learned, in 1943, about the existence of the concentration camps (which was actually a pretty well guarded secret, even within Hitler's military), and he came to believe that Germany must be defeated. He was actually part of a conspiricy of the military to oust Hitler and make peace with the Allies, and end the war.

He was injured in an allied raid, and a few days later, the suitcase assassination attempt happened. It wasn't actually Rommel's group that moved against him (there were more than once group of consiprators trying to oust Hitler) but Rommel's defeatist attitudes were known to Hitler, and Rommel was forced to commit suicide (his death was originally blamed on the wounds from the allied raid).

[TimPoet]

Originally posted by mr krinkle
I just heard TimPoet that the white powder found could be GW's lost stash. *sigh*

[mr krinkle]

Tim for whats it worth I heard he didnt inhale..<p>Paul Victorey You know your stuff,You have to be a history major.

[Longbow]

Paul Victorey, your knowledge on this subject is extensive my compliments to you.
I beleive the guy that planted the suitcase bomb was called Von Staffenberg, he served under Rommel in the Afrika corp, but as you quite rightly state was not part of the same group.
The Maginot line was quite an engineering feat (in it's time) but by the start or WW2 out of date, besides, France did not extend it along the border to Belgium who posed no threat, well not until it was invaded.

[Paul Victorey]

Hehe, I'm not a history major, I'm an engineer :D But history, especially WW2 history, was a hobby of mine for a while.

[Kubie]

Paul,

During your hobby, did you read "At Dawn We Slept" by Gordon W. Prange?

Carl

[Paul Victorey]

No, is it one I should check out?

[mr krinkle]

Paul Victorey do you consider Hitler to have been a genius or just insane?

[Kubie]

Paul,
I believe you would like it. Complete story of before and after Pearl Harbor.
Mr Prange did an excellent job of providing sources for his work.

Carl

[Byte 2.0]

Hitler was by no means a genius. That war could have turned out very different had it not been for Hitler.

[avx]

Hitler was the worst war stategist in history, but only cause he let his paranoia dictate his actions(Thanks Paul). But when it came to motivation and persuasion...he was one of the most dangerous in history...

[StuartW]

Some people are comparing Saddam Hussein with Hitler, but it should be remembered that Hitler was not a dictator, but an elected leader of the Nazi party. When he stood against Hindenburg in the 1932 presidential elections he gained over 13 million votes out of a total of 32 million. Hindenburg who was duly elected as President thought very little of Hitler at the time, only to appoint him Chancellor in 1933.It is interesting to speculate that had not Hitler become Chancellor, would world war 2 have happened. In the defence of Hindenberg who was 82 at the time,he was seeing the virtual collapse of Parliamentary government, and inpending civil war. A sizeable majority of German people supported Hitler, which allowed the Nazi party to grow into a very real threat to world peace.
It just shows that even a democratic country, with parliamentary elections,can,with the consent of the people,become a very real threat to world stability.
What is worrying is that even if democracy is introduced into Iraq, there is a danger that the Iraqi people could well elect a leader just as dangerous as Hitler.

[avx]

Another interesting fact - Hitler orignally wanted to be a painter, but all he got was criticism...if someone actually bought 1 of his painting, would WW2 have happend?? Thats the truly mind blowing question:)

Saddam had an election too didnt he...We all know how that went...and why...

Hitler and his Nazi party only made up about 10% of the German population...but his intimidation tactics and ruthlessness caused people to be more afraid than to act...Im not 100% sure but hadnt he already established the Nazi part before his actualy campaigne?? Paul??? Hard to make up your mind when you got the G police right behind you....

[Paul Victorey]

No, actually, the Nazis were truly overwhelmingly popular in Germany, long before any of the secret police or later tactics. Hitler and the Nazi party easily won elections in 1933, and they were well-loved nationwide. There was no election fraud, he did legitimately win. His party was small but had massive public support. The party was established in the 1930s, most of his more cruel tactics, which themselves were democratically done (the Reichstag passed them into law in the usual fashion) didn't occur until after they had secured power. And he was incredibly popular for most of his time ruling Germany; the Germans didn't know about concentration camps, and he made incredible progress on rebuilding Germany after WW1, so most of the people loved him.

Hitler did, though, exceed the powers granted to him as Chancellor, although he did become dictator democratically -- the Reichstag passed the Enabling Act in 1933 granting him essentially limitless power.

Hitler was not a military genius, but he was, in many ways, brilliant. He was a master at persuasion and at knowing how to lead. He was insane, as well, of course, but he was one of the most charismatic and influential leaders of all time.

I also think WW2 was inevitable. Hitler had a lot of power, but he had it because his policies (rearming Germany, recovering from the debt, and improving the lives of Germans) was exactly what everyone wanted. The people were ready for a strong leader to rise up and give them a war, and he was the leader that did.

Germany is not the only place a democratic republic has committed atrocities. Rwanda was much the same, likewise the most recent set of genocides in Yugoslavia.

[avx]

Ive seen like 2 documentaries where they have both stated that only 10-15% of the German poupulation was actually part of the Nazi Party...Hell I even think I tool a test with that question on it...This is why I hate school..its either wrong, against the genrerl knowledge, or exaggerated...why the hell did I got for 15yrs just to be minsinformed...?

[TimPoet]

Originally posted by avx487
This is why I hate school..its either wrong, against the genrerl knowledge, or exaggerated...why the hell did I got for 15yrs just to be minsinformed...? To be indoctrinated by the liberal agenda. :cool:

[Jackblack]

"We don't hate America. We just think your president is an asshole."
-- unidentified Frenchman, who still enjoys free speech

[Kubie]

jackblack,

The feelings are really, really mutual!!

Carl

[Paul Victorey]

Originally posted by avx487
Ive seen like 2 documentaries where they have both stated that only 10-15% of the German poupulation was actually part of the Nazi Party...Hell I even think I tool a test with that question on it...This is why I hate school..its either wrong, against the genrerl knowledge, or exaggerated...why the hell did I got for 15yrs just to be minsinformed...?

Well, that's sort of true. I think they were referring to those people who made up the official party; the registered members. Just voting for the Nazi party didn't mean you were officially a member. I'd believe 15%-20% would be the officially members of the party, but in 1933 at least, they won 43.9% of the seats in the Reichstag by legitimate votes.

And who was "officially" a Nazi and who wasn't is also debatable. Once the Nazis were firmly in power, most people had no choice but to join the party if they wanted to work in Germany. 15% is probably the percentage of people who actively worked in the Nazi party pre-1933.

[Paul Victorey]

Oh, on the original topic, this smoking gun doesn't appear to be smoking after all -- the chemical found was a pesticide (makes sense, it was in an agricultural facility) and not a banned weapon. I mention this because it's funny, for how often the media will report on every rumor, how they never want to admit when they're wrong.

[TimPoet]

In actuality, we're not looking for a smoking gun. We wanted to prevent the assembly of a nuclear, biological and chemical gun, which this regime had one of (and used it to the death of thousands), and was rabidly seeking.
And we accomplished our mission, we've defanged the regime, now, there's Iran, N. Korea and possibly Syria next.

[mr krinkle]

LOL

[mr krinkle]

I am sorry, I could not help myself Tim.

[raftero]

its those if's that get you!!!!
germany would have won the war IF!!
the dog would have cought the rabbit IF he haden't stopped to take a crap.

[Jackblack]

So where are all of these WMD we went to war for? Secretary of State Colin L. Powell threatened sanctions on Syria if they defy US demand. Besides, the US has lifted sanctions on Iraq and we're just not happy unless we're starving somebody.

[WJWheels]

Originally posted by Jackblack
So where are all of these WMD we went to war for? Secretary of State Colin L. Powell threatened sanctions on Syria if they defy US demand. Besides, the US has lifted sanctions on Iraq and we're just not happy unless we're starving somebody. Who knows? Probably buried in Syria somewhere.. maybe in a bunker we haven't happened on yet. But so what? We know he had them cause he's used them in the past. There's a ton of evidence that they did exist, and that his armies had the training and protections to use them now. We've made the world a better place and gotten rid of a vile, threatening regime.

As they're saying in Iraq, "We Love Bush"!

[WJWheels]

Originally posted by TimPoet
And we accomplished our mission, we've defanged the regime, now, there's Iran, N. Korea and possibly Syria next. After reading Jackblack's and krinkle's posts Tim, maybe you better add IOWA to that list! :D

[Kubie]

After reading Jackblack's and krinkle's posts Tim, maybe you better add IOWA to that list!

Maybe the good, hardworking people moved out. You know the ones Wheels, good moral fibre, patriotic, etc.

Carl

[TimPoet]

let's be nice...

[WJWheels]

Originally posted by Kubie
Maybe the good, hardworking people moved out. You know the ones Wheels, good moral fibre, patriotic, etc.

Carl Very true... I moved from Urbandale, IA about 12 years ago now.

[mr krinkle]

In Fact most Iowans are independent open minded folks as the majority of midwesterners are also ,,,As apposed to some in here who are partisan hacks who sadly only see things in Black and white. <p> But as Tim says play Nice kiddies!:)

[Kubie]

As Sarge's signature points out:
"Don't be so opened minded that your brains fall out".

Sadly, I see some here have had that happen to them.

Carl

[glc]

Moderator says "play nice kiddies" too..........

[mr krinkle]

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0422-03.htm
<p>Good read here RE: the war and did Bush lie to us about it.<p>Of course all politicians lie.

[mr krinkle]

glc...No problem here. I feel you have been very fair about what is posted all in all considering how emotional the topics are.

[TimPoet]

Bush did not lie to us. We wanted to prevent the assembly of nuclear, biological and chemical WMDs, which this regime had one of (and used it to the death of thousands), and was rabidly seeking the others, especially nuclear. And Bush helped to rid our nation of the threat of another or worse September 11, a nuclear one. It doesn't matter if we do not find anything. Hussein was after them big time and would have gotten them and thus he posed an imminent danger to us, now he's defanged.
The honorable President Bush did his job.

[mr krinkle]

Tim I find that Bush is just about as honest an worthy as Dick Nixon and LBJ,They were both popular at one time also.<p>And its important to remember that the Arab world has seen a very different war than we have. They are seeing babies with limbs blown off, children wailing beside their dead mothers, Arab journalists killed by American tanks and bombers, holy men hacked to death and dragged through the streets. They are seeing American forces leaving behind a wake of destruction, looting, hunger, humiliation and chaos.

[TimPoet]

The destruction is minimal, the looting and chaos is short-lived, the humiliation is on the former regime and the hunger is being fed.
What the Arab people are really seeing is the greatest power on earth being successful at what Arabs respect: brute force, albeit in the most humane manner a war has ever been prosecuted. If not for our willingness to spend ten times the money and effort to avoid collateral damage there would be destruction far, far worse, a thousand times worse.
What they are seeing is US military success and they are interpreting it in a way that tells them they better start listening to this now-awake giant whom the terrorists aroused.

[mr krinkle]

Tim I just dont see things in that light man sorry,And as one who saw Gulf War#1 in person I can tell you that you must not trust what the Pentagon tells you about what really happens.<p>And we must remember that it only took several people to bomb OKC and a handful to crash into the towers.,The World is no safer than before Tim but far be it for me to attempt to change your mind.

[TimPoet]

I'm not listening to the Pentagon. And as far as changing my mind, you have no worries there. ;)