Political Affiliation's

[mr krinkle]

Maybe this belongs elsewhere but let me give it a try.<p>I was wondering what the Political Affiliation is of the Pro War people here and the Anti War AKA (traitors) As I have been called here.<p>Myself I am Libertarian.

[Paul Victorey]

I don't really consider myself anything. Of the two parties, my views match the Republican platform, but I think the Republican party, as a whole, is corrupt, hypocritical, and foolish. But I dislike the Democratic platform.

I absolutely hate how both parties seem to think we're better off after they take a bunch of freedoms from us. Let the Democrats have their way, and we'll have no video games, movies, or guns, and let the Republicans have their way, and we'll have no privacy left at all, nor any rights to due process.

Overall, my voting is done by which candidate I hate least. And sometimes it's a tough call.

[Nuclear Krusader]

I am a monarchist.

[avx]

You feel you are labled as a traitor here Krinkle? I dont think so...not even a "Go War" guy like me would lable anyone as a traitor unless they truly deserved it. I dont agree with your opinions, but I enjoy the good political conversation.

I myself am with Paul...I hate 'em both, dont like there little golden retirement funds they get, that we pay for, either.

[mr krinkle]

Yes Paul both political partys are corrupt and in bed together,I was a Democrat but switched to Libertarian because todays Democrats are just Republicans with a different name.<p>I have noticed from the posts that most here are very Conservative,I dont think its a portrait of America but maybe they just have more free time to gossip here.

[mr krinkle]

Nuclear Krusader you should live here in the US then as We have King Bush as our fearless leader.

[avx]

I dont think it is that everyone is very conservative...I think we all just have a high standard of respect here. Its one of the main reasons I hang around so often...cause no matter how dumb of a question I ask, the guys dont drill me, they just let me know the answer. You dont find that very often on the net.

"I dont think its a portrait of America but maybe they just have more free time to gossip here."

I didnt quite understand that part...would you mind clarifying:)

[mr krinkle]

avx487 I have only been here a short time so maybe those were the wrong words,But I was just going by what I saw in alot of the posts re: the War. Maybe I am assuming the majority here are Right winged politicly which explains the pro war anti France rants that I have witnessed here<p>Just a observation. ...But overall I agree,Most here have been very helpfull and polite people when it comes to PC problems.

[avx]

Well...I think those France rants were spawned for good reason dont you? You cant argue that we didnt put our @$$'s on the line to help them save their country, and to rebuild it...and then when the USA asks for a little back up, they drop us like a sack of rotten truffles....

[Nuclear Krusader]

Playing devil's advocate again, hehehe:

Avx, remember that France along with Spain helped you during your independence war.

(Well, old King Louis did it only to vex England).

[Paul Victorey]

Also, avx, when we helped france last time, we didn't help them when their nation was in imminent danger, we didn't help when they were conquered. We helped them two years later, after we were attacked by the Axis ourselves.

And it's not a mystery that they disliked our help. The Germans had invaded, but had kept most of the infrastructure intact to help their own troops. We destroyed rails, roads, etc. in France, and so, to a lot of the people in France, America and Britain did more harm to their nation than ther Germans had. America found the only reliable way to block roads from aerial attacks was to bury them in rubble, and so the US and British bombers would level tons of buildings to pile up the rubble on major roadways to confound the Nazis.

But, in any event, if the French want to repay their WW2 debt, they should wait until 2 years after Saddam conquers the US to do so.

[avx]

Well, correct me if I am wrong, but was it also America that made sure that Germany paid for the dmg done to the territory it destoryed...this is some vague highschool histroy class comming back to me now, but I do remember something about someone getting stuck with the bill of paying for the dmg done to france and other heavily dmged countries and the US is the coutry that made sure that it was paid for in full...

[mr krinkle]

avx487 I dont know how old you are but do remember Gulf War#1? Bosnia? France was with us all of the way in both of those conflicts,But with this current War They and the Majority of the UN were against going the route we did because I think they saw Iraq as Nowhere near as dangerous as they were before GW#1.,<p> And because France,Germany,Russia and all else who tried to avoid the bloody slaughter(Which it Was) held there ground I see no reason why they shouldnt be able to help rebuild Iraq and also do business there.

[avx]

They want in on the oil fiesta that there is gonna be after the war is over...America takes out the enemy and feeds the poeple...they come in and start a few oil drilling companies...That is how they are gonna "Help rebuild Iraq". Plus, there were different leaders of France at the time of GW1 and Bosnia...Im sure if they were...They would stand with us now too...

By the way, Im 19, so of course I dont remember the GW all to well, and Bosnia is only a faint memory, but I was raised to know that when someone helps you out majorly, you should be more than willing to repay the favor, and you should not abandon your friends when they need the backing the most. And I know its a hell of a lot more complicated than that, but thats just the way I see.

So, being that I am 19, I am enlisting in the marines very soon, only 1 thing can be said...Im stubborn as all hell and there isnt nothing you can say to change my mind:D

[Paul Victorey]

Originally posted by avx487
Well, correct me if I am wrong, but was it also America that made sure that Germany paid for the dmg done to the territory it destoryed...this is some vague highschool histroy class comming back to me now, but I do remember something about someone getting stuck with the bill of paying for the dmg done to france and other heavily dmged countries and the US is the coutry that made sure that it was paid for in full...

Germany didn't pay any of the costs, America did after WW2. Germany was forced to pay all costs of the war after WW1, which was the primary reason that WW2 happened at all. Germany was nearly bankrupted by the debt, and then a depression hit, and Germany was hit hardest of all, mush worse than the US or any other nation, because of the sanctions. That was one of the main causes of WW2.

America paid the cost of rebuilding all of Europe, which was an incredibly brilliant move, and ensured that another war wouldn't break out in Europe.

[mr krinkle]

avx487 Good luck on your future,its been fun jousting with you.<p>I do hope though you never have to kill a 13 year old who may or may not be a threat to you in the theater of War,You will never forget it..

[avx]

Dont plan on killing anyone but the enemy...If that kid has a gun, and he is aiming it at me, hes the enemy, and I will not hesitate to shoot him...I know its harsh...but I would like to come home from Iraq...

I also have great aim, so, if at all possible I will go for a limb shot and just disable the poor misguided child...

God willing...I will never be put in that situation though.

Thanks for the good wishes too....good conversation:D

[AlwaysUp]

Time will prove you all wrong about your fears of Bush's motivations in this conflict and the ultimate outcome of the new Iraq. I dislike the portrait you guys are painting of the President. I also think you have all been consistantly wrong with your dire projections of failure in the liberation of Iraq...I suppose admitting err is difficult for us all. I believe Bush puts country before self. I always felt this about Reagan and to a far lesser degree of the Senior Bush. I cannot say the same for the previous administration, Pres. or VP/pres.candidate! As far as anybody labeling you a traitor....no way. You have the equal opportunity to hold wrong headed views as we all do, myself included! :)

[mr krinkle]

AlwaysUp I have never trusted Bush SR and his sidekick Reagen Who easily could have been impeach for lying to Congress
during the Iran Conra scandal.<p>I have yet to see any reason Bush will be any more honest than his pappy was,Clinton should have resigned IMO instead of going through the Republican sponsored impeachment.<p>As a Libertarian I see Bush as more of a danger to our constitutional rights that possibly any leader in History...The patriot Act is simply something straight out of Nazi Germany.

[avx]

You just said Bush is more dangerous than Hitler....

You see... obviously you have no clue who Hitler is, neither do you understand what a Nazi is, and you would probably the first one to go into the "big showers" where they shovled everyone....

[mr krinkle]

avx487 do you have some kind of reading disorder? <p> FYI I was speaking of US leaders avx487,I hope I dont have to explain everything to you!:) So again I didnt say that
But,If you want to make some comparisons between the two I would glady give you some.

[morriswindgate]

"The patriot Act is simply something straight out of Nazi Germany"

Have you read it, or is your conclusion based upon word of mouth, media news reports, or internet sites.
If this law were as bad and dangerous as it is described, the Supremem Court would have been asked to review it and it would have been declared unconstitutional. But there is probably a conspiracy theory about that on the internet also.

[mr krinkle]

morriswindgate that is my conclusion after Reading the act itself,,,Unlike most politicians who voted for it who failed to even read the damn thing..

[mr krinkle]

avx487 before you get all bent out of shape again or someone else let me be clear,,,I did not Say Bush is more dangerous than Hitler OK? Just want to clarify that before it gets twisted again..<p>.So it was my bad,I should have said "Our" History in the USA..Sorry..

[avx]

Originally posted by mr krinkle
As a Libertarian I see Bush as more of a danger to our constitutional rights that possibly any leader in History
Dont worry about me getting bent out of shape...I enjoy political conversation, and I know better than anyone that I am wrong 50% of the time:D

Its just when you read what I just quoted there...You assume, "any leader in hostory", which of course would throw Hitler into the mix, which I assumed you actually meant, but now that you have reworded it, I see what you mean...Dont agree with you by any means...but I see what you meant:p

[Mac Medic]

Funny, I dont recall the majority of the UN being opposed to this action. In FACT I remember a Unanimous vote approving 1441 which authorized the use of force. And I also remember a small faction of 3 nations opposing that authorized use of force when it came time to act, hardly a majority is it?.

edit:

and how many of those nations that did vote for 1441 are part of the over 50 countries now signed on to the coalition?.

[avx]

I say we just give everyone what they want...Pull out of the UN, leave Iraq, stop funding every damn country in the world...stop with the aid...just stick to our own...Lets see if everyone likes that better...Cause Im getting sick and tired of watching Iraqi's hug and kiss our soldiers and thank them...and then these friggin Khakals start saying America shouldnt be everyone savior, and this should be an Iraqi revolt...yeah...right...

[Mac Medic]

Originally posted by mr krinkle
As a Libertarian I see Bush as more of a danger to our constitutional rights that possibly any leader in History...The patriot Act is simply something straight out of Nazi Germany.

Personally I agree with this, and I'm as conservative as they come. Not only this but McCain/Feingold, The Total Freedom Information Act and the newly created KGB all designed to take away our constitutional rights. Not really suprising as this supposed Conservative is on record as saying "I fully belive there should be limits on freedom". (I'll try to find the clip and link to it). These are all things a communist government would love to have in place and they WILL be challenged in the US Supreme court in due time.

[avx]

What do you guys think of this quote from Dennis Miller(My favorite comedian:D)

"Sure, communism looks good on paper, but it damn sure aint gonna work."

I always found the quote funny, cause to me communism doesnt even look pheasable on paper, but when you get down to the nitty gritty, Karl Marx had a good idea, I just dont think he planned it out realisticly...

[Tiretool]

I'm probably about as conservative as you can get. I vote for every Republican that I think deserves the job. If there isn't a worthy Republican running, I don't vote.

[AlwaysUp]

TireTool, my sentiments exactly. Look at the liberal leadership....Tom the Dash (who should have been cast as Damien in my opinion) Grab heart, who is reasonably photogenic if he keeps his mouth closed. Scary Kerry, who needs another barber and a speechwriter.

[WJWheels]

Don't forget Peloser!

Oh... If I don't like the Republican running, I write in my own name. Once in a while I make the local paper. ;)

[mr krinkle]

Well guys and gals at least you bother to vote at all which i applaud you for,To bad many dont as then we could have some real change instead of the status quo of Republicrats.

[WJWheels]

So what are you saying mr krinkle.... that Republicans are more responsible and care more about how our country is run?

[AlwaysUp]

Maybe if we bombard Mr Krinkle with questions and he types til his liberal fingers begin to bleed then we will all have learned something. The obvious presense of blood on the keyboard means they ARE human.....(...sigh...)

[mr krinkle]

WJWheels the party in power is the most corrupt one.<p>AlwaysUp I would be more than happy to oblige you if you have something of substance to ask of me.

[Paul Victorey]

Reagan should be imprisoned for his crimes. He knew Saddam was using biological/chemical weapons, and he decided to reopen relations with Iraq, providing them vast amounts of money and weapons for his war with Iran. He knew Saddam was using chemcial weapons on his own people, and refused to stop the flow of money, overriding Congress on that matter.

In my mind, if you knowingly give money and weapons to a murderer, you're as guilty as he is.

Personally, I think it's people like Reagan that make me afraid to vote Republican. I think they have great ideals, but they never practice what they preach.

[Tiretool]

I don't think he knew what was going on over there at all... and there's no way you can prove it now because his health has failed him so.

So I don't believe a word of what you just said. And furthermore, I'd wager that the real reason you're scared to vote Republican is because of all the garbage that the Democrats have fed your ears over the years.

[Paul Victorey]

Actually, he DID know, the US State department even made an official statement regarding the use of chemical weapons in 1983, as did the UN! And the US Congress voted on sanctions against Iraq in 1988 which was squelched by the White House.

From the US State Department, March 05, 1984:


Available evidence indicates that Iraq has used lethal chemical weapons.


From the UN, on March 24, 1984:


Chemical weapons in the form of aerial bombs have been used in the areas inspected in Iran by the specialists. The types of chemical agents used were bis-(2-chlorethyl)-sulfide, also known as mustard gas, and ethyl N, N-dimethylphosphoroamidocyanidate, a nerve agent known as Tabun.


The whole WORLD knew about it. The UN had direct evidence (they actually sent observers and tested for chemical weapons use), and the State Department obviously knew about it, and somehow Reagan doesn't know? He should be the best informed man on Earth. Anyone with a newspaper subscription would have known about Iraq's chemical weapons, it's not some big secret.

And you can't really say he didn't know about the 1988 gassing of the Kurds, when Congress apparently knew about it well enough to pass sanctions on Iraq, to be killed by Reagan, largely because American companies were making a lot of profit by selling technology to Iraq, and they strongly opposed sanctions.

Further, a report in 1992 by the Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs showed that the US had, during the 1980s, sold Iraq materials needed to make biological and chemical weapons, including VX gas and anthrax, under the premise of Hussein using them to "research antidotes and countermeasures for biological and chemical weapons". So we were selling the raw materials that could be used to make chemical and biological weapons to a man we knew had already used such things.

[morriswindgate]

Paul, then you agree that Jimmy Carter should be jailed also for allowing the Islamic extremists to take over Iran and by all accounts murder up to 4 million of the brightest people in that country. After all it was Carter who withdrew support for the Shah.
Not to mention that he did absolutely nothing to end the occupation of the U.S. Embassy (An Act of War under International Law). Also he failed to stop the French from starting construction of the Nuclear Reactor in Iraq.
Clinton should be tried for bombing the pharmacutical plant in the Sudan, a civilian facility.

[Paul Victorey]

The Shah was a corrupt leader who was overwhelmingly despised by the people he ruled, and although Carter did stop supporting him, he never gave aid to the Ayatollah. Had Carter given aid to the Ayatollah, he should face criminal charges for aiding a murderer. But refusing to support the Shah is not the same as supporting the Ayatollah.

And the pharmacutical plant in Sudan was believed by the US State Department at the time to be (and may well have been)producing precursors to chemical weapons for Al Quaida.