Freedom!!!!!!

[Kubie]

So many happy people in the center of Baghdad.

So many sad people here that we went to Iraq and liberated them.

To those who think we shouldn't have gone to Iraq,

please go there in the center of those crowds and tell them we're there for the oil and that they shouldn't be free.

Carl

[jackjones]

I would agree with you Kubie that it's nice to see that people are happy. It really fills my hart with joy seeing happy Iraqis running around the city of Baghdad plundering. Make now mistake however that this display of joy can disappear as fast as a puddle of rain in death Wally. It may only takes weeks for the Iraqi people to get feed up with the Americans running their country. While, the rest of the regions population get increasingly angrier about the massive presence of American troops in Iraq.

[Kubie]

Than we should have just stayed away and let the torture, murder, and support for terrorism continue?
Carl

[jackjones]

When did I advocate the principle of indifference and what does Iraq have to do with terrorism?

[Kubie]

jackjones,
I said the people are now free.

You said, sarcasticly(sp), how your heart was filled with joy watching them plunder.

So then, what is the alternative? No freedom and the torture, murder, and support for terrorism continues.

One thing I will expect from liberals is the continuing finding the bad side of everything that has an inkling of freedom.

Carl

[drisley]

Its a really different outlook, isn't it. I find it fascinating. While some people can watch the Iraqis tear down the Saddam statue and feel nothing but joy about it, others have to concentrate on all the bad things happening in other areas of the city.

Its a rule of the universe - order is achieved by first going through some momentary chaos. If anyone thought freeing Iraq was going to be tidy and neat at all times and say we shoudn't have done it, well, you're being highly short-sighted. These people tearing down the statue would have normally been imprisoned and executed for what they are doing. Now, they are doing this freely, giving our Marines flowers, getting their picture taken with us.

[jackjones]

Firstly, I'm neither a liberal nor am I a democrat. Please, do stop putting me in little demographic boxes. Moreover, there was no sarcasm in my remark about he plundering Iraqi people. I was truly a joy to see them take back some of the thing that have been out of their reach for so long. (I was referring to the plundering of the palace warehouses. Sadly, there have also been plundering of hospital, a matter which I look upon with the greatest concern).

[drisley]

Well, then I would agree with you on that, jack. BTW, jack, where would you put yourself on the political spectrum? Just curious.

[drisley]

Statue just fell. Iraqis are all over it bashing the crap out of it. What a symbolic gesture this whole thing is. How historic.

Be interesting to see how the press treats this. Its hard to mis-interpret. I heard the BBC was covering an earthquake in India for most of the morning. How typical.

[jackjones]

Correct me, if I am wrong but I presume that you are an American, Drisley? Since I am not American and come from a country with a multiparty system and a long history of coalitional governments( governments consisting of more the one party who have joined forces to achieve majority) it is quite difficult to express which part of the camp I belong to politically speaking. Let me express it this way; I believe that you are responsible for your own position in live but you are however also responsible for helping others achieve their goals and making sure what everyone gets a fair start.

There you go again bashing the BBC. One ought to think that they had done something personally unpleasant to you. J/K

[drisley]

Its a little hard to place you politically with that statement, jack. I think that, philosophically, people on the left and right here in America would agree with that statement. And, yes, I am American.

And yes, I am bashing the BBC. They deserve it.

[jackjones]

It's true that it's hard to place me. I guess, it all boils down to what you would define as a fair start and how much help you find that people deserve.

[Mac Medic]

Still waithing for those links you started condemning the killing of civilians by the Iraqi military Jack. Or is it just the US you pick on?.

[WJWheels]

While, the rest of the regions population get increasingly angrier about the massive presence of American troops in Iraq.Geez.. what pessimism! This is the greatest thing the U.S. could do for Arab relations. Arab populations should be dancing in the streets for their Muslim brothers and sisters in Iraq. Maybe some will give thought to the oppressive governments they're existing under. I know the Arabs in the U.S. are celebrating robustly.

[Jackblack]

So is this what the US calls Nation building? And if the people of Iraq think Bush is such a nice fellow Why cant we send him there to ruin/I mean Run there country?

[Jackblack]

Why should the Arab world be happy about a Global Conquest thats started with Iraq?

[jackjones]

I’m sorry but I surely do not feel that I am obliged by your strange sense of logic and moral views to post anything about the atrocities committed by the Iraqi government. I shall post on which ever subject I see fit as long as I do not break any forum guidelines.

PS: Please, do not accuse me of being anti-American just because I have not commented on the crimes of the Iraqi government. That is plain silly.

[WJWheels]

Originally posted by jackjones
It's true that it's hard to place me. I guess, it all boils down to what you would define as a fair start and how much help you find that people deserve. My thoughts on that is the U.S. seems to give anyone all the help they will take advantage of.... which in my opinion is what they deserve - no more & no less.

[jackjones]

"My thoughts on that is the U.S. seems to give anyone all the help they will take advantage of.... which in my opinion is what they deserve - no more & no less."

I don't !!

[Mac Medic]

So the mass slaughter of civilians by
the Iraqi military is a result of my
"strange sense of logic" yet a US soldier
doing his job makes him the stupidest
person in the war? Can we please vote
for the stupidest member of the forum?.

As for being Anti-American Jock, if
the shoe fits...

[drisley]

Alright, guys, start to throttle back. This is getting into the name-calling arena, and we're not going to have that here.

Speaking as an admin here....

[WJWheels]

I base my opinion on the virtually penniless, non-english speaking Asion, Arab, Mexican, etc. people that arrive on these shores and within relatively few years, due to offered programs, acceptance by our people, and hard work reach an economic and social level amost impossible to obtain in their native countries.

One of my grandfathers was a prime example. He arrived from Italy penniless as a teenager, went to work in the midwest for a home-owned ice cream shop, became a partner, and later sold the business (actually traded it for a job) to Fairmont Creamery. He made for himself & family a very comfortable living.

I think of the long lines of people around the globe wishing and waiting to get into the Unites States of America. I see no one waiting to get out.

[jackjones]

When did this thread turn into a debate about American domestic policies? When did I ever say anything negative about that? ( Not that I couldn’t do so. Nothing is so good that it can’t be improved)

[WJWheels]

I give up. I commented but offered no debate or even a differing opinion (you hadn't opined) on your statement - "I guess, it all boils down to what you would define as a fair start and how much help you find that people deserve."After my statement you replied to it with, "I don't." I then merely explained the basis for my feeling. Where's the debate?

[avx]

I realize I am a little late, but about your post where you mentioned us going in there and staying there, and people being fed up with out presence Jackjones.

We have already outlined our goals in Iraq
- Tear down the regime
-restore order
-aid the people
-establish a friendly government

then we pull out...We dont want to stay there any longer than we have too, we may leave a few marine units there to make sure their are no uphevals of any kind, but the mass of a force will be gone as soon as a stable, reliable goverment is established.

[jackjones]

“I realize I am a little late, but about your post where you mentioned us going in there and staying there, and people being fed up with out presence Jackjones.

We have already outlined our goals in Iraq
- Tear down the regime
-restore order
-aid the people
-establish a friendly government

then we pull out...We dont want to stay there any longer than we have too, we may leave a few marine units there to make sure their are no uphevals of any kind, but the mass of a force will be gone as soon as a stable, reliable goverment is established.”

What you perceive as a short stay may be interpreted entirely different by the Iraq people. Different cultures think differently.

[avx]

when did cultures begin to interperet time differently???

You could be an indian who hasnt even seen a car..."many moons ago" still means "a few months ago"...

DUDE...CHECK OUT CNN!!!!

These poeple are partying, they are bringing down the statues, they are hugging our troops...they are accepting gifts and giving them flowers...troops and Iraqi's are crying together...THEY ARE HAPPY TO BE FREE...

[jackjones]

"when did cultures begin to interperet time differently???

You could be an indian who hasnt even seen a car..."many moons ago" still means "a few months ago"...

DUDE...CHECK OUT CNN!!!!

These poeple are partying, they are bringing down the statues, they are hugging our troops...they are accepting gifts and giving them flowers...troops and Iraqi's are crying together...THEY ARE HAPPY TO BE FREE..."


How time is perceived is very culture based.

[drisley]

It is, but if anything, I think Americans would tend to be more fast-paced than those in the Middle East and esp. Asia, who tend to be a much more patient people, more long-term. I don't think it is likely that we will see "short time" to be longer than they do.

[jackjones]

"It is, but if anything, I think Americans would tend to be more fast-paced than those in the Middle East and esp. Asia, who tend to be a much more patient people, more long-term. I don't think it is likely that we will see "short time" to be longer than they do."

Yes, that's a good point. But you also have to take the situation into account. If an American is doing business with and Arab the American may feel that it is taking for ever and the Arab may feel that everything is going way to fast. On the other hand the Arabs are a very proud race that are not keen on taking orders for westerners. Thus what may seem as a short time to an American the Arab may feel as too long. You have to take the fact into consideration that different cultures perceive time differently in different situations.

[drisley]

I don't think its much of an issue, really. Compared to the dictatorships in that region, especially Saddam's, I don't think having the "westerners" there is really going to create much of a problem on the short term, except for those outside Iraq who might wish to use the American presence to further some other agenda.