Did Bush Deceive Us in His Rush to War?

[mr krinkle]

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0422-03.htm
<p>Now that the War is over questions must be asked,Such as did Bush Lie to us?

[Mac Medic]

If thats what you read, and belive, I feel so sorry for you.

[Kubie]

No, he didn't lie to the American people.
There those that just don't like President Bush. No matter what he does or says, these people will pick and pick at him.

These people are so disappointed that the war in Iraq went to well and so quick, that now they will make up stories and outright lie to try to turn the story to help their anti-american cause.

Carl

[sdkfz]

we went in there to stop this

http://www.msnbc.com/news/902295.asp?0cl=cR

[Paul Victorey]

If we went in there to stop torture, why are we actively supporting regimes that are equally bad?

The article has some valid facts, but really, when is ANY president honest with the people? He never obscured the facts -- anybody had access to the full texts of speeches before Congress and the UN, and anybody with Google could have gotten that information regarding the reliability of his sources. He had a goal, so of course he's going to put his spin on it. It's up to the people to realize that there is more than any one source will tell, and it's up to the people to independantly assess the facts.

[mr krinkle]

Oh please don’t point to jubilant Iraqis dancing in the streets to validate the case for "pre-emptive liberation." You’d be doing the Baghdad Bugaloo too if the murderous tyrant who’d been eating off golden plates while your family starved finally got what was coming to him. It in no way proves that running roughshod over international law and pouring Iraqi oil onto the flames of anti-American hatred was a good idea. It wasn’t before the war, and it still isn’t now. The unintended consequences have barely begun to unfold.

[doctorgonzo]

There are several possibilities here, especially with regards to WMD. The problem is, none of them bode well for us:

1. Bush did lie to us in order to go to war. He knew Iraq didn't have WMD, but he made up stories to convince the public. Now, as much as I don't like Bush, I think this is pretty far-fetched. But if this is true, I think it is obvious how dangerous this is to our democracy.

2. Our intelligence about Iraq was pretty far off. Intelligence thought there were WMD in Iraq, strong enough to merit an immediate attack, but they were wrong. I think this is pretty likely. If it is true, then we have serious intelligence deficiencies that need to be addressed, and I don't see that happening right now.

3. Iraq had WMD, but they are now gone to Syria or some other country. This is also possible. If this is true, then the war in Iraq has done the exact opposite of what we wanted: instead of getting control of these weapons, they have now been scattered to the wind like dust. Harder to keep track of and easier for terrorists to get, if they don't already. No good.

When Bush said that the threat posed by Iraqs weapons were real and immediate, I imagined a few hundred medium-ranged missiles with chemical or biological warheads that he was hiding. Nothing remotely near this has been found, nor does it seem likely at this point. Only time will tell why this is.

As for torture, give me a break. China tortures people as well, and they have Most Favored Nation trade status. We indirectly support Colombian paramilitary groups through the War on Drugs that do not behave in the best of ways. Heck, we have taken terrorism suspects to other countries presumably so information could be tortured out of them in ways that are illegal in the U.S. Yes, ending torture is great and our government should never support it one bit, but the U.S. can be hypocritical on this subject.

[sdkfz]

Once again I ignored a lesson, never participate in discussion regarding religion and politics.

[Trent Steel]

So hows the weather sdkfz? Its currently slightly cloudy with intermitant showers here in Edmonton.

[glc]

sdkfz: I hear ya - and there are those who feel that we should not even have this forum and all political/religious discussions should be sent to Forumclick.

[mr krinkle]

doctorgonzo if Bush did lie to the American people and congress about Iraq wouldnt that be a Impeachable offense? Now granted the present Congress would never pursue such a thing but they have impeached presidents for lesser things.

[avx]

Krinky come on man...The war is over, we win, we had some losses, its horrible, but we set an entire country free, and gave a major blow to terrorism...

Ask all the questions you want man...at the end of the day how can you argue with these results????

[Paul Victorey]

Well, the results are hardly in yet. We can't really say the Iraqis are free until they have a stable government of their own creation, and it's a little early to declare this a victory against terrorism. The dust has barely begun to clear, the ramifications of this will be felt decades later, so it's far too early to say this was a success OR a failure. Hell, many of Reagan's bad decisions (arming Saddam, training Bin Laden, continuing the School of the Americas) didn't really blow up until years later. I think, avx, it's a little early to say it's a success, especially when the hardest parts of the campaign are still to come.

[Mac Medic]

For lesser things? You mean lying under Oath?.. Thats Lesser??

[glc]

What's the definition of "lying"?

[Mac Medic]

lol

[mr krinkle]

Paul thats right, We can easily declare victory over a weak army such as Iraq but the long term effects of it are unknown..And as far as making the US safer from terrorists attacks these people are dreaming,It is just as likely to happen again.<p>Remember avx487 they still have not found out who mailed the anthrax.

[mr krinkle]

What's the definition of "lying"? <p>glc asks,,I guess every time Bush moves his lips..:)

[Mac Medic]

Wow, that reminds me of someone else who held the office. And how ironic was it that one left office surrounded by Bush.

[avx]

You guys make it seem like there is no doub that some huge disaster is gonna occur years and years later...You guys are so paranoid...Game Over. WE WIN! Are security is tight, we know better, they know if they try sometthing else, we will just resume the total ass whoopen...They say the new Iraqi Goverment could be in place as early as the middle of this week or next.

And I didnt say we defeated terorism, I just said we gave it a hard hit...we have really screwed up there system...

Im pretty sure nothing is gonna happen...Just like how everyone said they were gonna use Bio Weapons against our guys...they didnt. Just like they said we are gonna have mass casualties...we didnt. Just like they said there were most likely gonna major civilian casualties and damgae to most of the Iraqi country...there wasnt.(the place really was POS before we got there...aint like we hurt it any). They said the Iraqi people wouldnt accept the american presence...they did.

Im not even gonna count...so lets just say the optimists are winning, and the paranoid folk are still comming up with these crazy dillusions about our impending doom...Guys...Just relax...it will be fine...whatever comes our way we will deal with it.

[Kubie]

.Just like how everyone said they were gonna use Bio Weapons against our guys...they didnt. Just like they said we are gonna have mass casualties...we didnt. Just like they said there were most likely gonna major civilian casualties and damgae to most of the Iraqi country...there wasnt.(the place really was POS before we got there...aint like we hurt it any). They said the Iraqi people wouldnt accept the american presence...they did.

"They" being the armchair generals and the liberal press and others of their ilk.

Leaves no doubt who the real liars are.

Carl

[Paul Victorey]

Originally posted by avx487
[B]You guys make it seem like there is no doub that some huge disaster is gonna occur years and years later...You guys are so paranoid...Game Over. WE WIN! Are security is tight, we know better, they know if they try sometthing else, we will just resume the total ass whoopen...They say the new Iraqi Goverment could be in place as early as the middle of this week or next.


Nobody's saying that there will necessarily be problems, but we've only accomplished step #1 of much larger plan. Step #1 was the easy one, it's steps #2+ that are going to be the real trials.

And winning a war by force is easy -- winning a peace by force is exactly what Saddam tried; kill everyone who rebels against you. If we have to constantly put down rebellions, we'll be hated as badly as Saddam in the end. As much as I normally disagree with Newt Gingrich, I have to say, I agreed with him completely on his assessment of this situation.


And I didnt say we defeated terorism, I just said we gave it a hard hit...we have really screwed up there system...


How? In the period of time from the week before the war with Iraq to the week after, anti-american sentiment in Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, and Saudi Arabia jumped by *twenty percent*. That's HUGE. We won't win against terrorists until we can decrease the anti-american sentiment across the Mideast as a whole. In a region where the majority of the population hates us, there's no way to AVOID terrorism except to win popular support. Terrorists can't be beaten with guns; the terrorists only become martyrs and a dozen more will take their place. They can be beaten by winning over the public opinion. Without popular support, the terrorists will fall. Bin Laden and those like him are seen as sort of Robin Hoods, who fight for the rights of the undertrodden.

If we can change that opinion, if we can convince the Arab world that we aren't their enemy and that Bin Laden is, then, and only then, can we win the war on terrorism. It's not truly a war about killing the terrorists, it's a war about stopping people from becoming terrorists and about stopping people from helping them. If we don't do that, it's pointless to kill terrorists because each death only causes more terrorists to emerge.

As to the Iraqis welcoming us, they certainly didn't want to be ruled by Saddam, but they don't want to be ruled by us, either. To quote a couple hundred thousand Shia, "No to colonialism, no to occupation, no to America, no to Saddam, no to tyranny, no to Israel". So we need to make sure we actually keep control (to prevent civil war) while at the same time not seeming like we're keeping control. It's a hard task ahead, and I truly hope that the coming months go as smoothly.

[glc]

As conservative as I am, as much as I support Bush, as much as I support the war, as much as I despise liberals, I still feel that as long as we keep supporting Israel so openly, we will never be left alone by the entire Arab world.

[Jackblack]

The greatest lesson I have learned in my plunge into the political debate has been how little things change. We seem to always be going where we’ve already been. The three political issues at work since the first tribe had their first meeting are still with us; who will be included, what those included responsibilities and benefits are, and how best to screw those not included.<p>But It’s a bright beautiful world to see, but if you would like to experience it as a conservative, put on a welding helmet.

[avx]

Originally posted by Paul Victorey
How? In the period of time from the week before the war with Iraq to the week after, anti-american sentiment in Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, and Saudi Arabia jumped by *twenty percent*. That's HUGE. We won't win against terrorists until we can decrease the anti-american sentiment across the Mideast as a whole. In a region where the majority of the population hates us, there's no way to AVOID terrorism except to win popular support. Terrorists can't be beaten with guns; the terrorists only become martyrs and a dozen more will take their place. They can be beaten by winning over the public opinion. Without popular support, the terrorists will fall. Bin Laden and those like him are seen as sort of Robin Hoods, who fight for the rights of the undertrodden.
The only reason they are whining about us is because we are there...I could care less about anything going on in Iraq except when Im watching TV and I see everyone arguing over everything, and I find myself thinking "Why dont we just bomb the hell out of all of them?" and its probably the same thing about them...they see our soldiers, they see our reporters, they see us on tv...they are just plain sick of us...so they complain, I cant honestly say I blame them...but come on...These people have always hated us, they resent the non religious bases goverment we have...they are upset cause they live in a ginat sand box, and they are plagued with war lords and dictators...They are perminently in a pissed off mood...besides, when did this war become about keeping the middle easterners happy??? This is about eliminating any threat to the US, and preventing any further terrorist attacks...If they got sucha big problem with it...o well, get your crap together and get a military worth the dirt they march on and do it yourself...until then shut the hell up...let us do what we got to do, and then we will leave...Just my humble opinion of course...

[Paul Victorey]

Actually, I think they're pissed off because everyone keeps invading them. If you look at the Middle East historically, everybody and their dog has invaded them, over and over and over again. They can barely go 50 years without another invasion. They've gotten to the point where they HATE foreign powers trying to come in with armies, no matter the cause. They're like abused children who lash out at everyone.

And if we want to stop terrorism, we can either make them happy, or we can commit genocide. Because nothing else will solve that problem.

[avx]

Well...there is alwasy the "rule with an iron fist" option:D

J/K - But your right Paul, you can never make these people happy. Even if these people have b een invaded repeatedly for the last 500yrs...thats no excuse for them to just be plain stupid...we are there to help them, and if they cant see that, well then in my opinion they dont even deserve our help...

I can think of a million and 1 places that all the money we have spent on this war, and the money we will spend, can be a hell of a lot more productive and much more appreciated...and all right here in America, while there is only 2 good reasons I can think of to use it over there...and that is1.revenge, and 1.protecting our asses in the future...and that second one is pretty much impossible when you look at it in the big picture...

[Paul Victorey]

It's not stupid. They remember when we tried to "help" them, by putting Saddam's party into power, and giving him "hit lists" of suspected communists. The next time we tried to "help" them, we gave Saddam the materials for chemical and biological weapons, after we knew he'd been using them. And then we did nothing when he gassed his own people, using the very helicopters we'd "helpfully" sold him. (and quite possibly chemical weapons based on materials from the US and Britain, the 2 biggest suppliers of chemical and biological weapons materials to Iraq in the period between 1984-1988).

"We're only doing this for your own good" is the catchphrase of every foreign occupier. They're skeptical, which isn't surprising -- it shows they've been paying attention. Never once in the past have they benefitted from anything a foreign power did to intervene, and while they're certainly grateful to the US for toppling Saddam, they also want us gone ASAP, before it ends up like every other occupation they've been through.

[mr krinkle]

avx you live in a dream world and that is not a bad place to be,However you are missing or just ignoring many facts about the War.I stand by my assertion that Bush Lied in order to Invade Iraq,There is much evidence to support that.<p>The American military do not belong in the middle of the Middle East. I do not believe this incursion will result in an end in terrorism, anymore than all our billions of dollars have resulted in our winning the war on drugs.Couldn’t we have gotten rid of the dictator another way and spent my tax dollars at home?

[wolfie]

avx487 please tell me what the hell we won, you think we have more security in this country now? tell me do you feel safe walking down your streets late at nite? and its just amazing how we came up with all this money for the war but anytime clinton wanted to do anything we were told we were broke, we are not the policeman of the world, we dont have enough miltary men to go around, but bush gets into office and presto we can do it all.

[avx]

I live in a dream world...Wheres this dream world of horrible actions taken on the US because of 9-11 you guys talked about for the 2 months leading up to the war??

I just dont over complicate things to the high hills...In my mind, things are very simple...We get attacked, we crush the attackers. We win a war with low casulities...I consider that a win all the same...when did the victory of a war start to lie 10 or 15 yrs into the future??? We win...there is no negative reprecutions...we got billions and billions of dollars at our disposal now. Think what you want, but thats the truth...

How come all of a sudden it is concidered dillusional of me to think because we destroyed the oppsing army and we there hasnt been a terrorist attack on the US since 9-11 that we should all be happy??? Or that we did indeed "win" the war...I cant be happy? I cant think "Thanks god now we can start seeing some soldiers come home" No No No....Im craxy, Im a lunatic...I dont even know who spit on Saddam shoes 30 yrs ago so of course I do not know the whole story, and I cant possibly have a logical view about whats going on...Well when I see this dillusional workd of you guys where this will be nothing but bad, and were all gonna die, and its the end of the world, and the econmy is gonna crash, this is horrible omg omg omg omg omg...we MUST PORTEST!

oK, when I see it...Ill say you guys were right...until then...Ill stay in my own little world:)

[Paul Victorey]

You're right, we SHOULD celebrate. After all, the hardest part about Iraq was defeating the nearly invincible Iraqi army. Compared to that challenge, the little task of rebuilding a society that's spent a century on the brink of civil war and genocide is easy. Making three parties that mutually hate each other agree to work together is child's play now that we've defeated the most powerful force in the known universe, the Army of Iraq.

And we attacked a nation that is of the same ethnicity as some people who attacked us, bravo! We believed they had weapons of mass destruction, but all these weapons are unaccounted for, so we have weapons of an unknown number and unknown capability that we can't find, which are somewhere in a region in which upwards of 3/4 of the population hates us -- I feel safer already! Who cares that we make more and more people hate us, it's not like they can strike back at us through terrorism or anything.

[avx]

A war is a war...You guys are the ones who said they were gonna use all these chem weapons the soldiers...we always knew it was agonna be an easy win...

You guys are also the ones who called Bush a liar, so why are you surprised there are no weapons found?? I didnt expect to find more than some soda pop and B.O....

[Paul Victorey]

No, I said the war would be a piece of cake from the beginning, I said the aftermath would be the real test. And I never expected we'd find much in the way of chemical weapons either. I expect we'll find some small amount, maybe, but given the kind of "evidence" we had before the war, it's not surprising we're not finding much.

I never thought the war would be hard to win, I just think it wasn't in the best interests either of the US or the Iraqi people; I think this war will do more harm than good to both groups.

[Alan]

As I stated in ForumClicks site, we can use any reason to go to war. It does not have to be good. Hell, wars have been fought over land, insults and women. As long as we win, who cares

[avx]

I agree with you Paul...this war is gonna be bad for US and Iraq..we will just lose money, and they will continure to tear themselves apart...I say get out now and let them...

[Paul Victorey]

It's a little late to leave well enough alone. To leave now would be the worst choice; we never should have entered the war, but since we did, we have no choice but to see this thing through to the end, because pulling out immediately would be the worst thing we could do.

[avx]

Why does it not surprise me that...Just because we are the United States that in every conversation, ever situation, and every condition, wi will lose, and not 1 person will be happy...No matter what we do...we always lose...Everyone hates us, we do everything wrong....

Food for thought...If we are doing everything wrong, and everyone else is obviously doing everything right...then why are we the supernation???

[TimPoet]

We are the supernation because of our founding fathers, good old conservatism and God's blessing.

[Paul Victorey]

Originally posted by avx487
Why does it not surprise me that...Just because we are the United States that in every conversation, ever situation, and every condition, wi will lose, and not 1 person will be happy...No matter what we do...we always lose...Everyone hates us, we do everything wrong....

Food for thought...If we are doing everything wrong, and everyone else is obviously doing everything right...then why are we the supernation???

No, we've won in many places, but that doesn't mean we're infinitely powerful in all areas, and until we recognize that there are problems that we can't solve, we'll constantly have problems.

I think we're the superpower at the moment for many reasons. Firstly, we have a prime piece of real estate -- large, with coastlines on both major oceans. We have an excellent amount of resources, both minerals and fertile land for agriculture. And we're sandwiched in between only two countries, neither of which has been hostile to us for more than a century.

We also rode the coattails of the industrial revolution in Europe, rapidly industrializing many areas of our country. We had a bloody civil war, but it ended reasonably fast (compared to civil wars in other nations).

We really rose to power during WW1, because we could have wartime production without having any fighting on our own soil. Thus we had a massive productivity increase without having to deal with attacks on our own soil. Same in WW2, which increased the gap between us and other nations.

Since then, we've maintained our position by economics. Our economy has been large and reasonably robust for recent years, so we have the money to devote to R&D work, even though R&D doesn't have a consistent payoff.

[doctorgonzo]

We won't be the supernation forever. It hasn't happened in history yet and there is no evidence that the U.S. is somehow immune. The question now is the manner in which we will leave superpower status. We can either slowly, and comparatively painlessly, shrink from superpower status and just become one power near the top, but not strong enough to be a superpower. Or we can keep on going, like the Nasdaq, until our bubble bursts and we are swallowed up from all sides.

Remember, those so-called "surrender monkeys" in France were a superpower. The sun never set on the British Empire for a long time. The former Soviet Union has gone from superpower to near-third world country in 15 years. Greeks, Romans, Ottomans...you can go on and on.

[Paul Victorey]

Actually, there IS one nation that has, except for a brief period, been a superpower for millenia, and that would be China. Except for the past 400 years, they were the dominant military, cultural, scientific, economic, and technological superpower for 4,000 years. For most of recorded history, they were centuries if not millenia more advanced than any other nation on Earth.

And they are rising again. Ever since Deng Xioping, they have been on a continuous trend away from a communist economy and transforming into a free market economy. They may soon surpass the US economically and be the dominant superpower within this century. They historically have been a nation with superb scholars, warriors, and inventors, and they are currently seeking to reclaim that past. It will probably happen, too; it's already been happening for a long time.