WHAT happened to my Marine Corps??

[SARGE]

I served from '67-'70. My son got home tonight from boot and related some things that blew my mind. "Pop", he said, "it ain't like it used to be". He said some group called Moms for America has gotten a foothold in the Corps and trying for more. He said during night infiltration exercises they were to stay out under the stars and the Mothers insisted on them being returned to the squad bay. I asked if he was looking forward to Old Smokey when leave is up and Pendleton calls. He said the Moms forced 'em to do away with that long tradition - said was too strenous. SAY WHAT??? I always figured the more one sweated in training, the less one bled in battle.
Old Smokey resembles Pikes Peak, with a long winding road around and up it. We always had a "forced march" up it (just short of a run).

Who let these old hens in, anyway?

[morriswindgate]

What is funny about this Sarge, is that even though they have done away with a lot of the old ways, they seem to perform as good or better than they use to. I mean look at what just went on in Iraq.
I personnally think that it was about time that the Military got rid of treating people like flashlight batteries (Run 'em till they dim out, throw them away and get some new ones).

[SARGE]

B.S. These outsiders have no business playing nursemaid to a bunch of Xers. That's what's wrong with them now. And most of what happened in Iraq was push-button warfare.

[cameroth]

On one hand, the mothers of america were right to mess with the traditions of the marine corps because some of those traditions most likely bordered on cruelty. Soldiers have the same constitutional rights as the rest of the country, and shouldn't be abused. Equiptment can help make a soldier better. For example, a soldier 20 years ago could run 10 miles with a 50 pound rucksack. Now, most soldiers don't need too. Advances in technology have fit more useful things in a 20 pound rucksack, which today's soldier can run with for 10 miles.

On the other hand, the military is what protects our country from foreign (and domestic) invaders, and they need to be tough. If we rely on only technology to protect our county, we're going to be in trouble, because eventually all battles will have to be fought army to army. The military is only as good as its troops are. If our troops start to go soft because of technology, soon we'll find ourselves attacked from all sides. You can bet that the North Korea, China, and Russia won't be letting their troops relax, and with similar technology to what we have, their troops will be strong and supported by advanced technology versus kinda strong and supported by advanced technology.

Of course, I've only been AROUND the military most of my life, not IN it, so I may not know what I'm talking about yet. I'll be finding out in about one and a half months :D .

[docrichards]

I am a retired Navy Chief Hospital Corpsman, and I have served many months with the Marine Corps. The last war may have been a push button war, but when ground needs to be taken and held, it still has to be done with ground troops. People are going to bleed and die, and the only way to be ready for that is hard down and dirty training. The Mothers are not doing their son's any favor's . All they are doing is making sure that they come home in a body bag. IMHO

Docrichards

[TimPoet]

If they ain't fit to fight, they ain't fit to fight. A marine's job is to kill, not pussyfoot around.

[trulad]

I was in the Corp from 1949 to 1953 during "the Forgotten War" and we were told by our D.I. that he was our mother and if the Corp thought we needed another they would issue us one.
Semper Fi
Bob

[avx]

I dont think you guys quite understand...Marine Corp and tradition are like the same word. To a Marine like Sarge, these new ways are FARRRR from the traditions he was taught while he was there, and Marines are all about tradition...The Marine Hymn, the word "Semper Fi", the Crucible...These are all traditions that only a Marine can fully understand and appreciate. Im not even in, and I can already feel the importance of these traditions, imagine what it'll feel like when Im there and back...

I know what you mean Sarge...They dont train 'em like they used too:) Thanks for fighting for my freedoms by the way Sarge, I appreciate it, you too Morris, Docrichards, and trulad;)

[padawan]

I did my 11 years in the service, and I can say that we watched the discipline and respect fade away in the new recruits all through the 90's. Go Liberals!

[avx]

Lots of punks...I know what you mean...I met a guy in the army who thought he was a god cause he was a captain or first lieutenant, or something...all his peers were crap, every other branch of the service was crap...but him...he was the best...I should have put him in his place when I had the chance...

Ill never be like that...

[cuffs007]

as another veteran of the armed services, i say we support our troops no matter how they're trained... if we see something in training that we don't agree with, then knock it up the chain of command as always...

our men and women deserve nothing less than the support we received 'back in the day', so to speak...

:)

[CMT]

My sister has been in the Navy for 8 years now and complains daily how new recruits coming in KNOW that the military is nothing to fear (as in basic training) and as of she works in a MEPS station she see's numerous excuse the expression "rejects" joining this is my pet peeve I understand you can further your education through the Military and support your family also but many are joining just because I never could join the Military at 18 and I'm not afraid to say why cause I didnt have the balls too... now at 30 I see 18 year olds running too join up so they dont have to work. Well sorry about my lengthy complaining... and I hope all know this is JUST my personal opion good week all:)

[docrichards]

I will say this, any one who has joined the military in order to get out of work, is in for a big surprise. Sure you may have some days when you don't do anything, but more days than not you are working 12 to 16 hour days. Yes you may get more slacker's and rejects that come in the service, but they don't last long. Most good NCO's do their best to make sure that they are sent packing back home. When you are in combat you cannot afford to have a slacker on your six, They will get you killed.

Docrichards

[padawan]

I'll tell you what...the Air Force has to be the worst for slackers and idiots. I've never worked with a lazier group of people than I did there. It was like being in high school all over again. Luckily, once I became an aircrew member, most people took the job a little more seriously.

But, a large part of the people I met in non-combat units were lazy, rude, and acted like they were civilians and we were bothering them. To this day (2 years since I have been out), I am still fighting with them over a large sum of money they owe me...but since someone forgot to submit my retirement papers, the computer showed me still active duty, and they showed me owing them huge sum of money, which oddly enough just happens to be about how much they owe ME. Nice. Try getting them on the phone, and it's phone tag for days. Send me back to a fighting unit any day. Damn desk jockeys can't operate without 12 hours of sleep, 10 cups of coffee, and their 15 minute breaks every hour. :D

No, I'm not bitter....lol. And if you are wondering, the money they owe me is my severance package for being medically discharged because of a service related injury.

[docrichards]

Padawan;

You should know by now that the fastest way to screw up anything is to let a non-combat admin puke get involved in it.
lol.

Docrichards

[padawan]

If it were up to me, there would be no military admin people. Make those position civilian. You'd get better service, and it would be cheaper. I like the motto in StarShip Troopers (the book)...Everyone fights.

[avx]

They are making a sequal to that...:)

Should be good...I liked the first one...dont know why everyone ragged on it...

[padawan]

Have you read the book by Robert Heinlein? If not, pick it up and read it. You will not like the movie anymore afterwards...lol.

[avx]

hmmm..Ill have to pick it up:)

[TimPoet]

That book was so different from the movie. It was one of the first sci fi's I ever read. Heinlein was the first non-picture book (children's book) author I ever read.

[mbossman2]

Originally posted by padawan
Have you read the book by Robert Heinlein? If not, pick it up and read it. You will not like the movie anymore afterwards...lol.

the book and movie are about as far apart as you acn get and still keep the title.

[RobH]

I heard a fella on the raido say something one that I will always remember- the Armed Forces are for 2 things-To Kill people and to break things.
A few years back a fellow who was in a youth group I had returned home on leave,time had went and he was a Sargent in the Army,he told me with his group of fellows they had "stress strips" and would place them on the foreheads to see thier stress levels...He said he had to back off a bit in training because he was "overstressing" his men.

[CMT]

Just a Example My sister was Stationed in Florida one of her Superiors was a Captain he had been in the Navy for 22 years what did he have to show for it as he put it " a Kick butt stereo and a Awesome wet bar" this gentleman is not allowed to posses a lic for 3 more years I know he is just one because I have personally met people in for 10 years with a awesome career started but just a show in the 60's and 70's you couldent get along on just living you had to have your stuff straight ahead...:)meaning you had to have your poop squared away:)

[mikeheitz]

I think part of the reason for the new "fluffy" Corps is that the military realizes they have a hard time competing with the private sector. Sure, you'll have guys & gals that WANT to be career soldiers. But for the most part, when someone is of age they have the options of College, job, or military. College is a party; job = money; military = B.S. thrown in your face. If the Military didn't change the way they did things, they'd not be able to compete. As it is, most people I know who are my age and in the military or who were, went in order to get money for school. I only know one guy who signed up for a second stint and he was my college roomie.

[Captn]

Originally posted by SARGE
B.S. These outsiders have no business playing nursemaid to a bunch of Xers. That's what's wrong with them now. And most of what happened in Iraq was push-button warfare.

I agree 100%

[avx]

Originally posted by mikeheitz
I think part of the reason for the new "fluffy" Corps is that the military realizes they have a hard time competing with the private sector. Sure, you'll have guys & gals that WANT to be career soldiers. But for the most part, when someone is of age they have the options of College, job, or military. College is a party; job = money; military = B.S. thrown in your face. If the Military didn't change the way they did things, they'd not be able to compete. As it is, most people I know who are my age and in the military or who were, went in order to get money for school. I only know one guy who signed up for a second stint and he was my college roomie.
Military = B.S. thrown in your face...? Im betting you havnt been in the military, nor have you ever wanted too.

Honestly, what job can you get with just a highschool diploma now a days?("Would you like fries with that sir?") You need a highschool diploma to be a garbage man...you may be getting paid, but you can bet your living week to week, and your not doing something that has a good retirement fund, nor is it something you would ever want to be doing that long.

College - I can tell you honestly that my family doesnt have the money to send me to college...but thats not why Im joining the military. In college, you spend 2 yrs doing diddly squat...just running around like a chicken with your head cut off trying to figure out what you want to do with you life...and in that same 2yrs of doing nothing in college, I can obtain my Bachelors degree in the military, not to mention all of the real world training you get. The military also offers programs to people who specialize in certain job areas, where they will compete with the pay salary you would get doing the same job in the civilian world.

The military is one of the greatest experiences a person can ever have, you will learn more, do more, and become more than I think you could ever do while in the civilian world...

Just my 2 cents:)

[spyder003]

haha, wait until you get in. you won't have time to go to school. that's why they offer $50,000 for college and all that BS, because they know you don't have time to go. not to knock the military at all, i'm in and i love it, i'm just saying it's a busy lifestyle....

[avx]

Well, that is of course depending on what branch your in, where you are and what your job is.

CLEP(CLAP) tests are what make things easier on your scheduel.

[padawan]

It really does depend on the branch of service and your job. I knew a lot of admin pukes that got their BS and MA degrees while in, going to school three nights a week. On the other hand, I was out flying all the time gone from home about 200 days a year.

[jgis19]

I was in the Navy from 1959 to 1963, although mt training as a Gunners Mate was no use to me as a civilian, he military taught me disaplain and respect, as well as a good work ethic. The military also allowed me to go to college under the GI bill and by a home under the GI bill. I have recently retired after 30+ years in financial services, so I think "most" of this was made possible because of the military.

[mikeheitz]

Avx...

I was in the Marine Corps Officer candidate program while in college. Unlike ROTC, they give you no money. You prove you can handle it, go to Quantico for two summers, and are a commisioned officer upon graduation. It's what I wanted to do more than anything. Unfortunately, a serious knee and ankle injury during a pickup basketball game decided my fate for me. I was dropped from the program. If I hadn't been, I'd be in Iraq with my college roommate right now. He's flying copters for the corps.

My reference was to the fact that MOST people are not willing to give up their "personal freedoms" to join the military. There are obviously many people that WANT to and do join. But the original post was referring to the Corps in the 60's. My dad was in the army in the 60's; drill instructors could pretty much do whatever they wanted to recruits.

In today's age of "bleeding heart liberals ruining all our fun", the military would be facing loads of lawsuits for harrassment for what was once S.O.P.

As far as family paying for college... get in line. I paid for it myself. Heck, I'm still paying. It's called the student loan program. If I could do it all over again, I'd go Corps then College. What can I say? I was 17 & stupid.

[avx]

EDIT: Im already skating on thin ice, Im not gonna get another warning for something as trivial as this.

Dont call years of tradition, and honor "B.S.". Lets just leave it at that

[LocoCoyote]

spyder003
You are off course here. I have been in the Army for 20 years now (retiring in November). My entire time has been forward deployed (never gotten closer to the states than Germany (after training)) and in combat arms units (Armor and Infantry) Belive me asisde from the GI Bill, there are many many many opportunities to get your degree. 100% tuition assistance for both post sponsored collages and online courses. Free SmartForce training, cooraspondance courses, video courses...all free or low cost to you. Then when you are done you still have all that GI Bill. Most commands find the time to let soldiers get to class. You might be surprised.

[glc]

avx: You will learn very quickly that along with the honor and tradition, there is a TON of "B.S.", it ain't all glory and air medals. I don't think you are qualified to make the comments you are making until you experience things first hand. I'm not dissing the service, but I and several of the other contributors to this thread have been there, you haven't - yet. If I thought that it was THAT bad, I wouldn't have spent 8 years on active duty and 16 years in the Reserves. If I had it to do all over again, I would probably do the same thing.

[spyder003]

ahh sure if you're single and have no life besides work, you'll have plenty of time for school. it's a little tougher being married with a kid, with all the military BS. granted it depends on your career field.... i get flip flopped between all three shifts almost every week. in my military experience, there's just not enough stability in the work week for school, aside from CLEP's that is.

[LocoCoyote]

Nice try Spyder...Married 5 sons. Still make time. 1AD is good about schooling. They let us use a bit of duty time 3x week.

[LocoCoyote]

Spyder....time management man...

[avx]

Originally posted by glc
avx: You will learn very quickly that along with the honor and tradition, there is a TON of "B.S.", it ain't all glory and air medals. I don't think you are qualified to make the comments you are making until you experience things first hand. I'm not dissing the service, but I and several of the other contributors to this thread have been there, you haven't - yet. If I thought that it was THAT bad, I wouldn't have spent 8 years on active duty and 16 years in the Reserves. If I had it to do all over again, I would probably do the same thing.
Your right glc, but I just didnt appreciate the way he called it *only* B.S....Im sure there is a lot of hassle you got to deal with while your in...but there is a lot more to it than that, a lot of people I have talked to say their years in the military were some of the best in their lives. Mike just made it seem like it was one big hassle, which isnt true....I hope:)

[mikeheitz]

Guys... sorry if that's the way my comments came across. I certainly didn't mean to make it sound that way. It's been a rough week. :)

AVX, I seriously wish you the best. You WILL NOT regret going into the service. My college roommate and I had grand plans of being in together. Kinda fell apart. He's on his way to a Masters when he gets back from the Middle East, so there are plenty of opps for education while in the service.

[avx]

No need to apologize. I look at it now and dont realize why I got so prissy...maybe it was just an anal mood. Sorry about that.:)

[docrichards]

I have never regretted going into the military either, you just need to know that the only kind of degree you will be able to get on post is in business management, or law enforcement, and possibly sociology or psychology. If you want anything advanced like mathmatics, physics, biology or chemistry. or advanced computing you are out of luck! I did get a degree finally. I got a Master's in cell and molecular biology, but I did it after I got out of the military on the GI Bill.

Docrichards

[avx]

Thats what Im gunnin for...a degree in advanced computing.:)

The thing is though, I dont really think college is for me. No offense to any college students or anything, but I think 90% of college students are idiots...I base this on first hand expierince with *certain* college students, andthat show Fraternity Life on MTV...Finally! A show worse than the real world:)

Im goin to a tech school when I get out...If I decide to get out that is...

[SARGE]

Originally posted by avx
No offense to any college students or anything, but I think 90% of college students are idiots...I base this on first hand expierince with *certain* college students, andthat show Fraternity Life on MTV...Finally! A show worse than the real world:)

Me thinks you need an expanded dossier of examples.

[DragonBreath]

Sarge I agree, it has gotten soft even from when I was in 92-96. It's the 10% the DIs allways talked about. Them writing home to mommy, "mom they hurt me feelings and i got blisters on my feet waaaa Mommy help me" It's those little pukes that were'nt meant to be Marines in the first place that caused the loss of tradition in the Corps.
There are too many benifits to even begin to go into here about being in the Marines, Things that you can take advantage of while your in as well as when you decide to leave. Best of wishs to you avx. And study your general orders :) 11th Walk my post from flank to flank and take no sh*t from any rank.
As far as having the same rights as everyone else, that is not true. Military members are governed by the UCMJ (Universal Code of Military Justice) There are many more resrictions as far as free speech while you are military personal. You are in a sense property of the USMC. As Gunnery Sergeant Hartman put it "While your heart may belong to the Lord, your ass belongs to the Corps"

Semper Fidelis
db

[SARGE]

Originally posted by DragonBreath
"While your heart may belong to the Lord, your ass belongs to the Corps"

Semper Fidelis
db

Yup. ;)

[mikeheitz]

DocRichards,

The corps wants to send my college roomie for a Masters in Info Technology. Times may be changing. His bachelor's is in Civil Engineering Tech... not sure how that made him a helicopter pilot! :) Of course, the whole Iraq thing pretty much put his timetable off a bit.

[avx]

LoL - "The whole Iraq thing"...Its so funny to hear it referred to as only that...

Remember the weeks leading up to the war?

"We are getting into something we cant handle", "Its gonna be a blood bath", "Negative effects for years to come", "Y2Iraq!!"...

ahahaha, yeah, right, sure....
:D

[docrichards]

Mike Heitz;

Chances are, that since he came into the corp already in possesion of a degree, he will have more opportunities than the average enlisted man. The military has some awesome graduate schools for the officer types. The one that immediately comes to mind is the Naval Postgraduate Institute in Monterey California. And no it doesn't surprise me that the corp is takeing a civil engineering helicopter pilot and trying to make him into the IT guy. If you hang around the corp long enough you will learn that they always do the unexpected.

Docrichards

[TimPoet]

If there's a billet, they gotta fill it!