View Full Version : Advice for parts on second build please
This will be my second build, or more precisely, an upgrade from my first, now out-dated build. Although I am a fairly tight budget, I want to bring this computer up to a high enough spec to run all of todays games at reasonable speed. I don't need perfection and I am willing to wait some loading time, but I'd like a good performance from the likes of Flight Simulator 2004 and Deus Ex 2. Okay, on to the parts themselves:
Mobo: No idea really. I'm a bit out of touch with the latest models. I'm going the P4 route so would I be correct in buying Asus or Intel? What are nice budget models?
CPU: As above, P4. I'm aiming for either a 2.6 or a 2.8ghz depending on prices. What's the performance difference between the Prescott and Northwood cores and is there anything else I should be looking out for?
RAM: PC3200 if I can afford it. I'd like to have two sticks of 256mb on dual-channel if possible.
Graphics: With my budget, the only way I'll get a 256mb would be with a Sapphire Radeon or something. Any suggestions for this and/or any other good budget cards?
PSU: The machine I'm upgrading has only a 250w but it has a "Supports P4" sticker on the side. Will I need to upgrade this and if so what is a good choice replacement?
Cooling: I'm not overclocking for the moment so what extra cooling will I need, if any?
Sound Card and Speakers: Not looking for perfection but a good enough setup to play MP3's and DVD's well.
I have the HDD, keyboard, mouse, monitor and case already from the old build. I will be buying everything from Ebay as I am from Ireland, Newegg don't ship internationally and there's no other good, cheap hardware sellers available to me.
Thanks in advance for all the advice, JTH :)
Force Flow
05-11-2004, 07:09 PM
What's your budget?
Ebay's not the best place to get electronic parts. You're taking a risk when you buy them there.
Motherboard: Have you taken a look here yet? http://forum.pcmech.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87156
Asus and Intel both make good boards. Try to stick with an Intel chipset, though.
CPU: glc and I were discussing the prescott/northwood pros and cons this morning in the channel. A prescott runs hot, so you'd need to stick on a different HSF, it has a higher cache, but more pipelines that negate that, and it OCs fairly well. So the only good thing going for it was the OCing. If you're not OCing, stick with a northwood.
RAM: Kingston or Crucial. Corsair for OCing. Try to get CAS 2.5, especially if you're OCing
Graphics: At the very least, a radeon 9600 pro 128MB. You probably won't notice any difference between 128MB and 256MB cards.
PSU: I'd suggest a 350W with builds nowadays. Antec, Astec, Enermax, Enlight, Fortron Source, HEC, Hi-Power, NSpire, PowerMan, PC Power & Cooling, Sparkle Power and Verax are all good brands.
Cooling: If not OCing, then yes, stock is fine. You may need a rear fan if the case doesn't have one already.
Sound: You could probably get a SB live! 5.1 for less than $30. As for speakers, what are you looking for? 2.1? 5.1?
Kov-Ice
05-12-2004, 12:00 AM
Keep in mind that if you want to overclock, stay with an ASUS motherboard. I don't believe Intels allow it.
mikezel
05-12-2004, 12:08 AM
Heres a quick thing i came up with. I'm not sure of the prices so you might have to make changes to fit your budget
Mobo: ASUS P4P800 SE
CPU: Intel P4 2.8C
RAM: Corsair Value Select PC3200 (2x256) - assuming you're not OC'ing
Video Card: 9800Pro if you can afford it, if not check out the Sapphire Radeon 9600xt
Cooling: Like FF said stock is okay for not OCing, but you might need another case fan
Audio: The onboard audio on the p4p800 is very good. propably as good as the sb live! 5.1. As for speakers, the Logitech z640s are a really good deal, and I love 'em...
As for the PSU, I don't think 250W could cut it. Go for at least 350, from any of the brands force suggested
hope that helps
mike
I'm not 100% sure of my budget but it's fairly tight, no more then a few $100. I don't like the risks of Ebay any more then anyone but I really have no where else to buy from, I guess I will just have to be careful.
I've found some promising P4P800 deluxe models on Ebay. Is there much of a difference between these and the SE's? Many are barebone, but is that a real problem considering I can just download the drivers and manual from the Asus website? What's an I/O shield? It says it doesn't include that either. And in relation to the sound, I'm not sure what quality speakers I'll need. What's a good budget set for nice quality DVD's and CD's?
Thanks, JTH :)
The SE is the replacement for the original non-Deluxe. You will need an I/O shield - that's the rectangular "mask" at the back of the case that the ports stick through. It *will* work if you knock out the original shield and leave it open, but it's not a good idea from a RF leakage and airflow aspect.
A 250 watt power supply is not enough for a high powered video card. If you weren't going to game and would be using onboard video, it would be sufficient as long as it's high quality.
Have you looked at the various vendors in the UK/GB such as Dabs, Ebuyer, and Komplett?
Budget optical drives - look at LG.
I'm going to get a blast for this, but if your budget is seriously tight, you can consider a Radeon 9600SE. Yes, I know it's a crippled card, but it *IS* DX9 compliant and will do a pretty fair job if you keep the resolution and effects down to something reasonable. It's in the same class as the Nvidia FX5200 but in my opinion is a better card.
You need to decide what you want from speakers - 2.1, 4.1, 5.1, etc. Logitech seems to be hard to beat in any of these configurations for the price.
This board looks nice:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3479837772&category=67866&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBWA%3AIT&rd=1
If it stays within the reasonable price it's at, is there any reason why I shouldn't bid for this??
Cricket
05-13-2004, 10:25 AM
That's a good motherboard...too bad the auction ended already.
:) Cricket
Yes I was just outbid at the last minute. Anyways, I will keep looking and post any promising results here. I found that my PSU is actually 300W not 250W as I had thought. Will it still need to be replaced with a 350W?
It's probably a good idea to get at least a 350w PSU from a known company.
If it's a quality brand 300 watt, it should be just fine as long as you don't put a power hog video card in it.
BARNEY
05-14-2004, 02:02 PM
I would go with Fortron power 350.
Just found out it's made by Advance. Are they a good or bad company? Will a new PSU be needed to ye think?
Thanks, JTH :)
Just found a really nice-looking boxed P4P800-VM. What's the difference between the VM and the Deluxe edition? The Deluxe appears more expensive. What are the integrated graphics like on the VM and how will they compliment my graphics card? And finally, does the VM support dual-channel?
Auction finishes in 45 mins so a speedy reply would by MUCH appreciated. Thanks, JTH :)
mikezel
05-15-2004, 12:47 PM
the difference is the integrated video. as for how the video will complement your graphics card: it won't. You can only use one or the other. If youre getting an AGP card and not planning on using only the integrated video, theres not point in getting one with it.
yes it has dual channel. but unless its a really great deal, go with the deluxe (the vm doesnt have firewire)
mike
Cricket
05-15-2004, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by JTH
Just found a really nice-looking boxed P4P800-VM. What's the difference between the VM and the Deluxe edition?The VM is a micro-ATX motherboard with on-board graphics. Originally posted by JTH
What are the integrated graphics like on the VM and how will they compliment my graphics card?Most on-board graphics are okay for everyday stuff and some older games, but they're not good for the newest games. And you would use only the graphics card or the on-board graphics, not both at the same time.Originally posted by JTH
And finally, does the VM support dual-channel?Yes.
:) Cricket
Okay but I could use an AGP card instead of the onboard graphics? Are there any differences other then the Deluxe model having Firewire?
JTH
Two more questions!! Will micro ATX fit my standard case and what are the E-Deluxe and SE models?
Cricket
05-15-2004, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by JTH
Okay but I could use an AGP card instead of the onboard graphics?Yes.Originally posted by JTH
Are there any differences other then the Deluxe model having Firewire?Comparison Chart (http://usa.asus.com/products/mb/overview_p4.htm)Originally posted by JTH
Two more questions!! Will micro ATX fit my standard case and what's the e-deluxe model? Yes.
:) Cricket
Jackothedon
05-16-2004, 11:27 AM
JTH I suggest you checkout
www.ebuyer.co.uk a british site which has very good deals on all components.
I have bought off them before and they have a flat courier fee of £25 to the Republic of Ireland ($45-$50). Added to that they seem to add additonal VAT at the checkout as an addition to the VAT already on the items. I have priced the new build on Ebuyer and it has come out really expensive but thanks for the suggestion anyway :)
Jackothedon
05-16-2004, 04:47 PM
:(
Another idea would be to go to a Computer fair, i'm sure you can find out one somewhere in Ireland. Cheapest prices, plus sometimes they help you install everythign *for instance my friend installed mY CPU, and heatsink for me'
Would it be a mortal sin to buy one of the OEM boards? They seem to be the only reasonable ones I can find. I reckon I can download the manual and drivers, it's just the I/O shield I'm worried about. I suppose I could buy one in a seperate auction or can the board be used without one?
Auction ends in 40 mins. Thanks, JTH :)
P.S. What's the sound like on the P4P800 Deluxe? Would it be better then this card for example: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4131274917 ??
Redfallon
05-18-2004, 03:13 PM
I think you want to get one with the IO shield, if the board doesn't include it (oem, refurb, open box auction, etc) I have seen them listed on ebay for <$10. The onboard sound on the p4p800 is good enough for most applications, the only time you'd really notice a difference going to like, an audigy card or what have you, is if you're really into audio, editing, listening, recording, etc, IMHO. There's an argument that onboard sound hogs cpu clock cycles, and slows the system down, especially in newer games, I guess it's a personal choice more than anything.
Okay I just bought a retail P4P800-deluxe. Next step graphics or CPU? For CPU I'm thinking P4 2.8 if I can afford it. Does the 2.6 come in 800mhz? Not sure about graphics, need a budget card that will still perform.
JTH :)
I have a few P4 2.8's shortlisted. In the meantime, what kind of budget graphics should I be looking for?
9600 graphics would be good. www.aria.co.uk is cheaper than ebuyer and has better deliveries and customer support.
2.8 is the same price as the 2.6 but more powerful.
Yes, the 2.6 comes in a 'c' version (800mhz bus). Go for kingston value RAM, that's generally decent.
Wow, this graphics card seems great:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=67864&item=4131235004&rd=1
It works out at about $161, which seems like good value to me. Could someone please tell me if there is a catch in this deal or something not good about this card? It ends in about five hours so is it worth going for?
P.S. Out of interest, does it work so 'A' CPU's are 400mhz FSB, 'B' are 533mhz FSB and 'C' are 800mhz FSB?
Also this one looks good:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=47563&item=4132344875&rd=1
Comments? Thanks, JTH :)
All "A" CPU's are 400 except the 2.4A, that's a 533 FSB Prescott.
I wouldn't get either card - 256mb is a waste of money. $161 is too much for that first card. 128mb is plenty, and any 9600 is fine unless you are a real hardcore gamer. The SE is entry level, the straight 9600 is next, followed by Pro, then XT.
not only is 256mb on a 9600 a waste of money, but you also get slower performance. when 256mb is implemented on a lower end card such as the 9600, the memory is downclocked from the 128mb version, and often runs at higher latencies.
Okay thanks for the advice. I found a 128mb for $89 or another 256mb for $129 but I think I will stay clear of the 256mb after hearing what the last poster had to say.
Although I want a budget-ish card, I've been thinking that seeing as my other components are fairly good it would be shame to have a weak link the system and it might be worth doing it right and splashing out for a more expensive card. What's the value like on say a 9800 model? Or is the 9600 more then enough for moderate gaming?
JTH :)
The 9600 is fine for moderate gaming, but I'd stay away from the SE model - the straight 9600 is adequate, the Pro/XT is better.
However - check THIS out..........
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-102-369&depa=1
A Sapphire 9800 Pro for $175?
See what you can find on your side of the pond. This would future-proof you a lot better.
I'm trying to find a good value Sapphire 9800 Pro now, thanks for that link.
In the meantime, I can be looking for RAM to. What PC rating do you recommend? I will most likely be going for 2 x 256mb with dual channel enabled.
Redfallon
05-25-2004, 01:41 PM
That sapphire pro GLC linked to is only a 128bit memory version. The 256bit memory bus is better, of course, more expensive. Just can't compare that to a 128mb/256bit radeon price wise. I imagine the 128bit 9800 pro would still outperform a 9600 pro or xt.
Maybe I should go back looking at the 9600 Pro then. Is there a big difference between the 9600 pro 128 bit and the Sapphire 9800 pro 128bit? Does the 9600 Pro even come in 256 bit?
Hmmmmmm. Well, it still has the 8 pipelines as opposed to the 9600's 4 pipelines and it should outperform a 9600XT.
I just bought an ATI Radeon 9600 Pro sealed in retail box for $120. Hope this is a good deal. Anyway, I guess I've bought it now one way or the other. So far that's:
- Asus P4P800-Deluxe motherboard
- Intel Pentium 4 2.8C
- ATI Radeon 9600 Pro
So I'm looking towards the RAM now. 2 x 256mb should do me fine. What PC rating should I be looking for? Kingston or Crucial? Anything else?
Thanks for all the help so far, JTH :)
If you aren't going to overclock, PC3200 Kingston would be fine. If you plan on overclocking, get out your wallet and go faster.
I changed my mind and went for 2 x 512mb Kingston PC3200. I got a newly packaged set of the two sticks for $220 (I checked and they are $245 on Newegg, which I consider cheap, so I guess it's not too bad).
That's all the core parts then. I now need a PSU and whatever cooling it takes. I'm looking at 350w/400w Antec PSU's. I don't know much about cooling as my last build was fairly low spec and didn't need any additional cooling so any advice on this matter would be much appreciated. I probably won't overclock straight away at least.
Redfallon
05-26-2004, 07:13 PM
The heatsink that comes with the retail 2.8C is adequate. You might want to add at least one intake fan, the PSU has an exhaust and should be fine for that processor running stock. Put the intake on the front of the case if possible, this makes for fresh air circulation in the front, up across the board, and out the exhaust.
What kind of intake fan should I get? Model etc.?
EDIT: I have one from that I pulled from an old Socket 7 computer. I don't know how powerful it is but do you think this will do?
Redfallon
05-27-2004, 09:55 AM
any intake fan will do, from plain jane black to the fanciest most expensive you can get. Just look at what size your case supports (most are 80mm) but they also have 92mm and 120mm. Just get the right size, you can also look at cubic feet per minute (cfm) and compare that to the dB (sound) level, and see which fan gives you the most cooling for the noise (cfm/db)
I need to get Win XP for this build but I want it for my other computer as well (currently running XP), so I can have a LAN. (By the way, I'll have a gigabyte card in my new machine and I only have a 100mb in my old one. Will that make a difference?)
Anyway, is it true that with the security feature stuff I can't install XP on both machines? Does that mean I have to buy two seperate copies? Or a corporate edition or something?
JTH :)
Kov-Ice
05-29-2004, 01:26 PM
Right, XP has a registration procedure you must go through within 30 days of install. It verifies your copy to that PC. You'll need two licenses.
The network cards will work, just at the slower of the two speeds.
How do I get two licenses? I plan on going out and buying a retail copy of XP, will that include just one license?
Kov-Ice
05-29-2004, 05:11 PM
Ya, two licenses in essence would require you to buy two copies. It is possible to get multiple licenses with one disc, but I think that is more for businesses.
Okay new question. I am ready to buy the Altec Lansing ACS340 model speakers (two speakers + subwoofer). While I am not ready to splash out big on a state of the art sound system, I would like speakers good enough to do justice to the onboard sound on the P4P800 Deluxe. Will these do?
Thanks, JTH :)
Kov-Ice
06-01-2004, 11:46 PM
I like my 4.1 Altecs, but I did have to replace the subwoofer after about three years. I guess that's not bad. For reasonably priced 2.1 speakers, alot of people like the Logitech Z-360s. If you have the funds, get Klipsch.
What surround are the above speakers?? Only 2.1?! That doesn't sound like very good quality!
JTH :)
I mean there's no point in having a 5.1 soundcard and then buying 2.1 speakers (if that's what they are). Could someone tell me as I am currently about to a deal with some guy from Ebay and I'd like to know beforehand as I am beginning to get doubts!
Kov-Ice
06-02-2004, 12:03 PM
You said you were ready to buy 2 speakers + subwoofer. That = 2.1 speakers. I have 4 satellite speakers + woofer, which = 4.1 set. Some newer setups have 5 and 6 satellites (5.1 & 6.1).
While the above 2.1s produce nice sound, if you want the full effect of the surround sound capabilities, you need to get 4 or 5 satellites.
Oh right, sorry I didn't understand! What's the quality like on 2.1 though? Good enough for good music and gaming?
Also can a 2.1 setup work on
a) the P4P800 deluxe onboard sound
b) a Creative Sound Blaster Live 5.1 soundcard?
JTH :)
bigandy
06-02-2004, 05:16 PM
Yes. You shouldn't have any problems with that setup.
Kov-Ice
06-02-2004, 11:51 PM
2.1 is good for music, esp. those sets I mentioned. 4.1 and above are more for surround-sound-gaming and movie-watching.
Don't bother getting a SoundBlaster Live card with that mobo sound you have, as it will be similar or the same. The only real difference is it will maybe be less hassle as far as changing plugs. I believe the mobo sound doubles up on some of the jacks, for example your rear surround speakers plug into the mic jack when in surround mode. This requires you to change out plugs at times.
Although I have bought the 9600 pro, I am beginning to question whether or not it would have been better to go for the Sapphire 9800 pro? The 9600 pro is still sealed in its box so I guess I could probably sell it on and make most of the money back if it was worth the upgrade.
Thanks, JTH :)
Just as an update, all of the parts are either here or on the way. The big delay was because the guy selling the CPU took literally a MONTH to send his thing:
Asus P4P800 Deluxe
Pentium 4 2.8C
1gb Kingston PC3200 (2 x 512mb)
ATI Radeon 9600 Pro
Codegen 400w PSU
WD Caviar 80gb 7200RPM
I'll let everyone know when I finally get it up and running :)
not trying to bust your chops, but please read here (http://forum.pcmech.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=101151). that codegen 400W is a time bomb.
Tin Canary, I read the other thread where it lists good, bad and "not enough info" and Codegen was in the "not enough info" catagory. I steered clear of the bad for the above reason but suppose the prices got to me in the end (it was about 250% dearer for an Enermax 350W!!)
If its a case of the thing just dying then I'm not too bothered. I didn't pay too much for it and I can always buy another one - who knows I might even get a few years out of it. But if it's a case where it can take all my components with it, then that's a different issue??
Any power supply failure can very easily take components with it. You don't necessarily have to pay the king's ransom for an Enermax, but you should be able to do better than a Codegen without breaking the bank.
Kov-Ice
06-26-2004, 02:26 PM
You definitely don't want to cut corners on your PSU. When bad ones go, they can take other components with them. Search the forums and you'll find plenty of horror stories of people losing a mobo, processor, or memory module when a cheap PSU crashes and burns.
Unfortunately I've already it bought. Didn't think Codegen were that bad :(
i have a 300W codegen, and lets just say my 300W antec has twice as many molex connectors.
What are molex connectors and will I not have enough of them with my PSU?
the molex connectors are what powers your peripherals, such as hard drives, cd-roms, video cards, fans, etc. if you start using too many Y adaptors to get more power sources youre putting more stress on the PSU. my 300W codegen had 4 molex connectors.
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