AMD Gaming System... Dual Core or No? ATI or GeForce?

[Davermonk]

Hello. I was (literally) minutes away from placing an order for new computer parts when I ran across your forum.

After reading for an hour, I'm now starting to rethink my build (again! ).

My goal is to make a new gaming computer to run "high-end" games & Adobe CS2 apps. Ideally, I'd like to go another 2 years before my next build (though I realize it won't be able to run every game 2 years from now). I do not plan on overclocking (and therefore will stick with the HS/Fan combo that comes with the retail CPU).

I'll be reusing some parts from my (2-year old) current computer, including the Antec TX-1050B server case, Asus CD-RW & DVD-ROM drives, floppy drive, case fans, keyboard/mouse, monitor, speakers & WinXP OS.



Here is what I was minutes away from ordering...

• $210 ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe
• $314 eVGA 256MB 7800GT
• $357 AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+ Manchester CPU
• $222 OCZ Gold GX 2GB (2 x 1GB) DDR400 PC3200
• $100 WD Cav 16MB/250GB/7200RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s
• $100 Antec TruePower 2.0 550W ATX12V

I'll call this "Plan A" - it comes out to roughly $1300.



After further consideration, I've revised some key components on that list.
This is "Plan B":

• $ 84 ASUS A8N5X
• $499 SAPPHIRE 100150 Radeon X1900XTX 512MB
• $334 AMD Athlon 64 4000+ San Diego CPU
• $141 CORSAIR ValueSelect 2GB (2 x 1GB) DDR400 PC3200
• $100 WD Cav 16MB/250GB/7200RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s
• $100 Antec TruePower 2.0 550W ATX12V

Plan B comes out to around $1250.



My thoughts on each component:

• Motherboard: I like Asus for their stability and reliability. I thought the newest Asus board would be the best option for a long-lasting system. I was surprised at how often I'd seen the A8N5X recommended on these forums. I thought I'd get SLI for "future expansion" but it's pretty unlikely that I'd buy another vid card w/o upgrading everything (score +1 for the marketing department). Therefore, it makes sense to save several bucks and go with a non-SLI card.
  
  
• Video Card: I hadn't even considered ATI until I read some of the posts here. I wanted the best for my budget. The 7800GTX was too much (given my other components) so I chose a 7800GT. After reading some reviews, I was shocked & impressed at how thoroughly the X1900XTX trounced the non-SLI competition. I assume it will run on the nVidea chipset with no problems?
  
  
• CPU: I've been wavering back & forth between Athlon 64 & X2 processors. I was told on another forum to only consider dual-core (X2 or FX) but now I'm second-guessing that advice. If none of the games supports dual-core, then would my games only be able to use 1/2 of the processor? That sounds like a waste of money to me - at least for gaming, and probably for photoshop, etc as well.
  
  Note that if dual-core is still an option (i.e. games/programs can run an X2 3800+ at 3800+ instead of 1900+) I would consider switching to a 3800+ Manchester since it's actually $30 less than the San Diego.
  
  
• RAM: I was going for the best timings. Now I read on here that CAS latency isn't a factor on AMD systems, and that ValueRam is equivalent to the "top shelf" stuff.
  
  To put my mind at ease once and for all, on an AMD gaming system which RAM would you choose: Corsair ValueRam (CL 3.0) for $141 or OCZ Gold GX (CL 2.0) for $222?
  
  
• HDD & PSU are the same between systems. I assume the 550W Antec will be enough for this non-SLI system (whether it's dual core or not)?

Sorry about the length of my post. I would really appreciate any & all thoughts regarding "Plan A" or "Plan B".

Thanks!!

[jayb1234]

As far as dual core goes, there are already a few games that can use it and the number should increase fairly rapidly.

PSU, That TPII 550 will be more than adequate for a non-sli setup, and ok for sli with anything but the highest cards. The 500W that came with the tx1050b case is likely to be sufficient for a non-sli setup.

RAM: Corsair

[blue60007]

Looks like either one would be a pretty darn healthy system. You might even consider dropping the SLI board (to the A8N5X or A8N-E) and then bumping up to a 7800GTX. You might as well stick with the Corsair Value RAM - you aren't going to notice much difference with tighter timings on an AMD system. I haven't checked the numbers but if you drop the SLI board and the premium RAM you might be able to bump up to one of the X1900 cards. Keep the Antec TP-II 550 regardless.

Oh, and the A8N5X isn't compatible with the 3800+ X2 - you have to bump up to either the next X2 or to the A8N-E.

it's pretty unlikely that I'd buy another vid card w/o upgrading everything (score +1 for the marketing department).

Yep, I wonder how many folks that have been through here, planning on getting a 2nd one of their card in a year, but end up just getting the lastest and greatest card instead.

If games do not have multi-threaded optimizations they can only utilize one core. If that's the case, your performance would be slighty under the 3700+. Each core of the 4200+ runs at 2.2GHz and the 3700+ runs at 2.2GHz, but the 3700+ has 1mb of cache (512kb per core in the 4200+). However, if the 4200+ can share that L2 cache then there isn't a difference (I'm not sure if it can or not though). In the FPS category, COD2 and Q4 have multi-thread optimizations, and there may be more.

[Ob1]

i would rethink going with a dual core processor. the main benefit being that you can multitask better. run your virus scan, encode video, and play a video game all at the same time. ok i have not actually tried that out, but i have read reviews where people have thrown those type of things at a dual core and it keeps running like a champ. heres a review that might explain things better for ya. also if you do switch to a dual core, you will have to get a different motherboard. since your not overclocking your cpu, u might also consider looking into intel products since they tend to be a tad cheaper, and the performance gain isnt that noticable.

http://www.short-media.com/review.php?r=261

[jfk]

Either build looks good. Personally, in my opinion, I'd take build two BUT I would add the CPU from build one for a few $$$ more. Look at my sig rig. I can GUARANTEE you that the X1900 series is ALL that it is cracked up to be. I was going to add a 7800GTX until the 1900's came out, then the decision was easy.

Personally, I KNOW that right now games don't support dual core CPU's very well. But they will, and reasonably soon. I intend to upgrade to a dual core late this summer or fall to be in a position to take advantage (plus I can't help NOT upgradeing my PC). If I were doing a build now, I'd put in a dual core, but it would probably be a 4400+ or 4800+.

Whichever way you go with them, EITHER one will make a GREAT gamer. JMO.

[Davermonk]

Originally Posted by blue60007 Oh, and the A8N5X isn't compatible with the 3800+ X2 - you have to bump up to either the next X2 or to the A8N-E.

I'm curious why those aren't compatable? The Asus specs on the A8N5X say that it works with Athlon 64/X2/FX chipsets. I'm not arguing with you - I really appreciate your feedback! However, if possible I'd prefer to go with the 3800+ just for the sake of saving $60 bucks (from what I've read, there's not really *that much* performance difference between the two).

So based on the replies, I think I'm going to go with this...

• ASUS A8N5X
• SAPPHIRE Radeon X1900XT
• AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+ Manchester CPU
• CORSAIR ValueSelect 2GB (2 x 1GB)
• WD Cav 16MB/250GB/7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s
• Antec TruePower 2.0 550W PSU

Total price of this package is $1,220 (though if I find out that I can go down to the 3800+, it'll drop the price to $1,160).


I changed the graphics card from the X1900XTX to the X1900XT. The difference is 25 MHz core speed, 50 MHz memory clock speed and $50.

The two ATI cards were pretty close in benchmarks with the GeForce 7800 GTX 512MB card, but ATI 1900XT is selling for $450 and I can't find a 7800GTX 512MB for less than $700... that's an easy decision for me. Now I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed that the ATI card and the nVidea chipset will get along ok!!

So, if you would, please take one more look at the parts I'm ordering and see if there is anything that doesn't look right.

I really appreciate everyone's time & thoughts. Thanks!

[glc]

That looks great - but see if you can justify a Toledo core processor.

[nickweb31]

They should get along fine, persoanally I would go for the 3800+ over the 4200+, there isn't much performance difference and if you would upgrade I would go for the 4400+ or 4800 due to the extra cache , but in your case if money is a problem then go for the 3800, if you'd like you can overclock it quite well

[hacheema]

shouldn't the AMD X2 be compatible with any Socket 939 mobo?

[hacheema]

to answer my own question, as far as mobos are concerned, if they support AMD64, 64FX, etc., they support the X2 CPU's. Generally it is a simple BIOS flash to update them to allow dual core CPU's.

[mevensen]

For the video card question, do you have certain games that you know you will be running? Or are you planning on just making the best system that can run anything you want to throw at it in the future?

Reason is, NVIDIA and ATI do things differently, and their cards are more suited to certain choices that game producers might make (textures vs shaders, OpenGL, etc.). If there's a game you "need" to run well, you might want to check around as to which card is best for that application.

Also, word is NVIDIA will be rolling out its next generation this month (the first of them this week, I believe). If you're not on a time line, I'd look into seeing what the newest NVIDIA has to offer, and what the new line means for pricing of the slightly older products.

The SLI question is interesting. There was a nice pair of articles on http://www.tech-hounds.com you might want to check out. They pretty much substantiate the single high card vs. SLI-lower card decision, but you can see for yourself, as the decision is one of compromises.

I agree with others as far as dual vs single core. We're going to see more games written to take advantage of the second core. Almost certainly within the two year expected use for the system you're building. I'd look to go dual core, and certainly will when I get my next system.

[hacheema]

If there is a game that you want to play but it isn't programmed to take advantage of the dual cores, then you can go under task manager, r-click the game and choose to put it to operate on one core. This should fix everything.

[MakeYourslf2012]

Reguardless, it will be a great system. Add one more vote for the dual core CPU - games aren't multithreaded now, but they will be pretty soon.

[Klutz_atlantis]

Hello:

My friend recently ordered an X2 3800+ | 2gb ram | Saphire GTO, and I have to say that it runs games like a champ. I've personally played WoW on it, and I've read a lot of problems with X2s on the WoW forums, but luckily my friends PC has none. He has also plays Spellforce with everthing on Max, and it runs smooth.

I've enjoyed the X2 so much I'm upgrading myself to a new system, which is a clone of my friends other than the case and psu. (He got an Antec SONATA, but I move my computer a little more, so I'm going with the aluminum NZXT never heard of them before, but 40 odd reviews rate it very well.)

An X2 system should enable you to do more with the $ invested. You may not "need" the dual core capability all of the time, but when you do it's nice to have. The cost isn't so great that it out weighs the benefits.

Yet another mark for the X2.....when will we se the X9s?

If you can't make it FASTER, make it do MORE!!!





klutz

[glc]

If you get a NZXT case, get one with no power supply. Their power supplies are not good quality.

[0o0o0]

I'm a noob to building myself but I have learned a few things this last week. . . therefor take my advice with a grain of salt or maybe a whole shaker. Also I didn't read this whole thread so I hope I can give you some new info, hope this helps:

If you haven't read it yet here's my thread on the same deal (or close anyways).

http://forum.pcmech.com/showthread.php?t=153688

My opinion (again take it for what is worth)

Ocz RAM with $40 rebate is only 15-20 more than the Corsair VS.
http://www.newegg.com/product/produc...82E16820227210


the 3700+ processor is significantly cheaper than the 3800+ (not the dual core line). I figured since most games out now don't benefit from the dual core anyways I should funnel that money into a video card. I think if its a gaming build the better video card will help you out more than a faster processor. Later when dual core has broader usage and much cheaper - upgrade. then again if you have the cash go dual core because it won't take long for lots of games to use it.

If you haven't seen it yet check out this case by NZXT
http://www.newegg.com/product/produc...82E16811146018
it might be the one clutz is talking about.
great cooling and looks good too.

check out tomshardware.com for good articles on vid cards and everything else.

also check out this link (my post on another forum) as it might be helpful as well. They gave me some good articles. But don't worry moderators I like this forum way better Seriously I got way more help here.

I'm in your boat though davermonk and I hope this helps out a little. Good luck.

[Davermonk]

The Athlon 3700+ is ~$250 and the X2 3800+ is ~$295... pretty close in price.

I found a review here from 10/24/05 that compares the single-core & dual-core processors in the game F.E.A.R. (one of the games I want to play with the new system). You can follow that link or click here for all four graphs on the same page.

The comparison benchmarks frames per second (fps) at moderate (1024x786x32) and high (1600x1200x32) settings. The results show that at the moderate settings, the 3800+ hits 74 fps while the X2 3800+ hits 71 fps. At the high settings, both the 3800+ and X2 3800+ hit 30 fps. Those look pretty similar.

Here is a similar test comparing the 3800+ and the X2 3800+ with Quake (and they say it also applies to COD2) that shows the X2 outperforming the single core processor (with the patch applied).

From those two benchmarks, it appears to me that the dual-core chips are pretty darn close to the single-core chips in gaming performance (at least for those games listed above).

I know that Photoshop CS2 is dual-core "friendly" so that alone is worth the extra $50 to me. Since it appears that the dual-core chip won't significantly lower my gaming performance (at least on those games noted above), I think I'll stick with the X2.

Thanks for the input everyone!! You guys rock!

[Davermonk]

Just build the new system.

Hit a few snags along the way. Had the floppy cable in backwards, which, when i hit the power button, the fans spun for about 2 seconds and then turned off again. Took me about 2 hours to find that, I'm sorry to say... but at least I didn't have a heart attack!

Anway, it's up and running. I'm downloading XP SP2 as I type, and I have a whole night of installing yet to go (though I did buy F.E.A.R. and I plan on giving that a run shortly...)

I'll keep ya'll posted as to how everything goes. I have to say, coming from an Athlon 1800... this system pretty much blows me away!

[gary_hendricks]

Davermonk,

My suggestions are here:
http://forum.pcmech.com/showthread.php?t=154458

It will cost you around $1000.

[glc]

Gary, please read the entire thread before posting a reply such as that. The system is already purchased and built.