First Build-CAD Machine

[kentuckyser]

First and foremost, thanks for all of the information I have already found on this site, it's a great resource.

I'm going to be constructing my first computer build, and I'd like someone to offer some insight on the parts I've selected. My main concerns are, will they work together correctly? Is there another part you can recommend instead of one that I chose? Can you save me some money?

I don't care about monitor, mouse, keyboard, speakers, etc...just concerned about the system for now. This will mainly be used for a CAD machine. My preferences are at least 2 GB Ram, DVD/CD-RW Combo. I do a lot of 3D drawings, profiles, cross sections, large scale CAD design, TIN/DTM data editing, so I need a system that can process this data quickly. All of the components that I've chosen have added up to about $850. I'm not TOO concerned about the price, but ofcourse cheaper is better. If there is a major upgrade that is needed and I have to spend a little more, that's no problem. I'm willing to sacrifice a few bucks for a significant increase in performance. So,...on to my choices:

Case: Antec Sonata II
Floppy: Random Sony Internal
HD: WD 250 GB SATA 7200 RPM 3.0Gb/s
CD-RW: Lite-On CD Burner IDE
DVD-RW: Lite-On CD/DVD Burner ATAPI/E-IDE
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 3700+ 2.2 GHz 939
Mobo: ASUS A8N5X Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 ATX AMD
RAM: 2 GB 184-pin DIMM DDR PC3200
Video: Sapphire Radeon X550 256mb 128-bit x16

I'm aware that my DVD-RW will also burn CD's,...but I need two drives in case I want to copy from CD to CD.

Also, assuming my choices are ok...what other random installation accessories will I need like wires, cables, etc? I understand most of these will come with their own connectors.

Also, I've read about some fan problems with CPU's that come with their own. Should I go ahead and replace the CPU fan with something better? If so, which one?

Thanks for your help.

[kentuckyser]

One more thing,...I'd like to safely over-clock the processor. Maybe get around 2.8 Ghz out of it? Or can you recommend a better one to OC?

OS will be XP Pro

Edit Again:

LAN: There is onboard LAN on the mobo, is that sufficient?

Sound Card: There is onboard sound,...is it any good? It's the Realtek ALC850. I just need the sound to work, don't need anything special.

[glc]

All looks good. Instead of a CD burner, why not a DVD reader instead? It will read both CD's and DVD's.

I would not even think about overclocking a production machine, overclocking is a hobbyist thing - are you going to hop up your work truck? Buy the processor in the speed you need to begin with. You might consider a dual core if any of your apps can take advantage of it.

The motherboard will come with all the cables you need.

Onboard lan and sound is fine.

The stock CPU fan is fine if you aren't overclocking.

[kentuckyser]

Thanks for the response.

I was also thinking about using a DVD reader instead. The CD burner will do nothing for me since there's already a dual DVD/CD burner.

Good point about the overclocking. I'm a newbie at this kind of stuff, so I didn't realize that.

If anyone has any suggestions as to different processor, mobo, etc....let me know. I'll probably try to order the stuff by this Friday...so I might need some help putting it together.

PS: I think I might go with a SeaGate HD instead, because of the additional warranty.

[pam123]

Is that video card going to work for heavy CAD programs?
Read this review : http://management.cadalyst.com/cadma....jsp?id=186989

[bailey]

I would suggest your looking into the system requirements of the cad program you plan on using, some have high ram and video requirements to run good.

[MakeYourslf2012]

I would suggest putting a little more money towards a more powerful video card.

I use that card in a PC at school for my 3D CAD design class, and its just not powerful enough. Sure it may be fine for working for simple parts and such, but as soon as you get into big 3D assemblies, it take at least 30 seconds to render the 3D image. If you have a drawing with alot of views and sections (plus dimensions), It can get pretty laggy when moving trying to navigate around the drawing.

I wouldn't worry too much about the HD. Those WD Caviars are pretty reliable, so theres really no need to change the drive because of warranty. However, it's up to you.

[kentuckyser]

* Intel® Pentium® IV processor, 3 GHz or higher
* 2 GB RAM
* 128 mb or greater, 1280x1024 with true color, OpenGL®-capable workstation class graphics card or DirectX® 9 support

Based on these requirements directly from Autodesk, should I change my processor, or is the AMD 2.2 GHz sufficient?

Can you recommend any sufficient video cards that will do the job? I don't want to pay a huge amount, but then again I want the machine to do the job. I'm in the Civil Engineering field, so my dealings with "huge 3D assemblies" won't be very often. I guess I got carried away when I said I work with "3D drawings".

Here is my updated parts list:

Case: Antec Sonata II
Floppy: Random Sony Internal
HD: Seagate Barracuda 7200 RPM 250 GB
DVD-ROM: Lite-On DVD-CD-ROM ATAPI/E-IDE
DVD-RW: Lite-On CD/DVD Burner ATAPI/E-IDE
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 3700+ 2.2 GHz 939
Mobo: ASUS A8N-E Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 Ultra ATX AMD
RAM: 2 GB 184-pin DIMM DDR PC3200
Video: Sapphire Radeon X550 256mb 128-bit x16

[pam123]

Based on those requirements your cpu is fine it's the X550 video card that's inadequate.
An OpenGL workstation graphics cards would be something like this : http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102436

This is an entry level card so take it as your base standard and, depending on what you'll be doing, the specs and the price go up from there.

edit : You really sound like a guy who could use a dual core cpu though.
Why not go for the X2 3800? Your motherboard choice will support it.

[kentuckyser]

I just looked on my current machine, and it's running an ATI Radeon X300. Tried looking it up, and it's a no frills cheap card. It runs AutoCAD and everything I need just fine.

I forgot to add, I need support for dual monitors. Do I have to run 2 video cards, or is there one that fits the bill?

[kentuckyser]

I guess that's why I started this topic. I don't know much about the hardware specifications and I'm trying to save a little money by putting together an above average machine by myself.

I looked at the X2 3800, I see it's 2.0 GHz as opposed to 2.2 GHz,...(2) 512 L2 Cache as opposed to 1 mb L2 Cache, and it's dual core. What does all this mean? I read some reviews on my original CPU choice and they were raving about the fact that it had 1 MB L2 Cache? I'm assuming the X2 3800 would be a noticeable upgrade from the 3700+?

[pam123]

The X550 has both vga and dvi out so, depending on your monitors, you may need an adaptor but you won't need a pci video card.
If you're unsure just check the specs on the card

[kentuckyser]

What about this card, I *think* it also has VGA and DVI out...and it says it includes a DVI to VGA adapter.

So, let me get this straight. Monitors run off VGA,...so monitor 1 goes to the VGA port, monitor 2 goes to the DVI port with the DVI to VGA adapter? Sorry I'm such an amateur at this. You say look at the specs on the card but I don't know what they mean, LOL.

[pam123]

Originally Posted by kentuckyser I guess that's why I started this topic. I don't know much about the hardware specifications and I'm trying to save a little money by putting together an above average machine by myself. I looked at the X2 3800, I see it's 2.0 GHz as opposed to 2.2 GHz,...(2) 512 L2 Cache as opposed to 1 mb L2 Cache, and it's dual core. What does all this mean? I read some reviews on my original CPU choice and they were raving about the fact that it had 1 MB L2 Cache? I'm assuming the X2 3800 would be a noticeable upgrade from the 3700+?

If an above average machine is what you want then you have to do a little re-thinking.
1. Gigahertz : The reason AMD has been pounding Intel into the ground is that the pure power solution no longer yields much of anything but exorbitant heat production.
What AMD did was make 2.2 GHz perform like 3.7 and then, with dual core it put the equivalent of two 3.8 processors on one chip. Less power used, less heat produced, more performance.
So yes the X2 3800+ is a noticeable upgrade.
Cache is always nice, and if you're chosing between two otherwise similar processors you chose the one with the larger cache for more performance (life isn't often that simple though).
There's a but here, you have to be doing something that will benefit from the larger cache or from a dual core processor. Something like a home graphics work station.
About the graphics card : If you want an above average set-up then the X550 is out and the fact that you've managed with an X300 so far is besides the point.
Neither of those cards, though they have their uses and the X550 is a frequent choice for a budget Home Theater PC, is of work station quality.
If, however, the work you do will go well with them then the question becomes, do you need to build a graphics computer at all?
Is it possible you've over-estimated what you need?

[flanzig1]

If you want to run dual LCD monitors, it would be best to find a video card with dual DVI outputs, if CRTs, then the VGA and DVI output should be fine.
CRTs are strictly VGA/LCDs can run VGA or DVI but DVI provide a better picture.

[pam123]

Originally Posted by kentuckyser What about this card, I *think* it also has VGA and DVI out...and it says it includes a DVI to VGA adapter. So, let me get this straight. Monitors run off VGA,...so monitor 1 goes to the VGA port, monitor 2 goes to the DVI port with the DVI to VGA adapter? Sorry I'm such an amateur at this. You say look at the specs on the card but I don't know what they mean, LOL.

Rule 1. Don't buy graphics cards unless you understand what they offer, what they offer is laid out in the specs (specifications).
My usual beat is gaming and the surest way for a gamer to get himself/herself into to trouble is to get the wrong card.
So let's take your choice of the X550 as an example.

http://www.sapphiretech.com/en/produ...g.php?gpid=116

These are the specs :

64-bit and 128-bit memory interface supporting 64MB or 128MB DDR1 memory configurations
Two programmable vertex shader pipelines
PCI Express® x16 lane native support
Full Microsoft® DirectX® 9 support
Dual integrated 10 bit per channel 400 MHz DACs
Integrated 165 MHz TMDS transmitter (DVI 1.0 / HDMI compliant and HDCP ready)
Maximum 3D Resolutions 16.7M colors 2048x1536 85Hz
FullStream™ video de-blocking technology for Real, DivX, and WMV9 formats
Hardware Motion Compensation, iDCT, DCT and color space conversion
ATI Catalyst™ Software Suite

This is not a graphics work station card. It's intended to be part of a Home Theater PC set up. All of it's features are geared to that - DivX. WMV9. HDCP ready.
An X300 might be a good, if underpowered, general purpose card but the X550 is a specialist. I was wondering if I hadn't misunderstood when I gave you the info on that card but now I'm sure of it.
It's not that it isn't a good card .
It's the wrong card for the job you want it to do.

Now the ATI card : http://www.ati.com/products/fireglv3100/index.html

These are the specs : (It's a full page so here's the link for you to use later since I'll only copy some of it.) : http://www.ati.com/products/workstation/techspecs.html

Graphics Technology

* Powered by ATI’s scalable FireGL workstation Visual Processing Units (GPU)
* Up to 256-bit high bandwidth memory architecture
* 2, 4 or 6 parallel geometry engines
* 4, 8 or 16 parallel pixel pipelines
* 128-bit full floating point precision
* 24-bits per RGBA component displays beyond 16.7M colors

Hardware acceleration of the following:

* Anti-aliased points and lines or full scene anti-aliasing (2X, 4X, 6X)
* 3D lines and triangles
* Stipple points
* Two-sided lighting
* Up to 8 light sources
* Directional and local lighting
* OpenGL overlay planes
* Occlusion culling
* 6 user defined clip planes
* OpenGL polymode functions
* 32-bit (24+8-bit stencil) Z Buffer
* Fast Z and color clears
* Full DX9 vertex shader support with up to 6 vertex units
* Quad-buffer stereo support 3

This is a very different animal.
You couldn't run a home theater PC with it, but it's a basic graphics work station card and what you should be buying if you're coming from the X300 and intending to go further with CAD programs.
In generalizing from the X300 to the X550 what you misunderstood is that it's numbers delineate usage, not just increased cost or increased power.

[kentuckyser]

So, you're saying that the machine I have spec'ed out isn't above average? Is it only because of the video card I chose?

I think if the X2 AMD CPU you mention will give more noticeable performance, that's the way I'll go. It's only about $50 more, so I'm ok with that.

I probably over shot my requirements a bit, but I don't want a machine that simply meets the requirements. I could probably get away with 1 GB Ram, a mediocre video card, and a cheap Intel or AMD CPU,...but I want my machine to perform. I'm terribly impatient when it comes to computers, I don't like to wait on them. I guess I didn't realize the importance of a video card when selecting my components.

So, I will use the dual core AMD CPU....now it's time to find a video card to suit my needs that has dual monitor support.

Pam, thank you so much for your help...I've learned more in the past few days about computers than I have in my life.

[pam123]

Take a deep breath before you jump off the cliff.
You want a basic graphics work station with upgrading possibilities.
This is the 'spec out' stage : What is your budget for real and what is the 'time frame'?
We can give you a computer to grow with you for the next few years ( well the next 3 years ) but not if your're insisting on the wrong graphics card.
Give us a chance to help you.
Let's begin again.

[kentuckyser]

I'd like to keep it at or around $900 for the system. I will be attempting to build this machine in about a month or less. Needs to be upgradeable for a further 3 years.

I need 2 GB Ram, dual LCD monitor support, and I'm very interested in the dual core AMD CPU that you told me about.

My main use of this PC is AutoCAD design work. There will be *some* 3D use like cutting profiles, working with terrain, survey and point data, cross sections, watershed analysis, etc. Most of the "3D" stuff doesn't have to do with 3D modeling, but I do sometimes use the 3D orbit so I don't want to rule it out totally.

Edit: Thought that I would add that I do a lot of multi-tasking, such as running 2 or 3 instances of AutoCAD, among other programs running in the background. The dual core CPU is good for this, right?

[glc]

To do what you need and keep in budget, you are going to have to use a consumer grade video card - a workstation card will bust your budget. Autocad doesn't need THAT strong a card. You can always upgrade the video card later. Here's a decent dual DVI card that's affordable:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814131318

Another $23 will get you a 512mb version:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814131009

If you are not going to use DVI-capable monitors, then you can use a 2-VGA or a 1-DVI 1-VGA dual head card. If your X300 is doing what you need, anything you buy - a X550 or the X1600 - will be better.

Dual core will be very beneficial for multitasking, as will 2gb of ram.

I hate to argue with you, Pam - but I think you are putting too much emphasis on the video card. I have a customer that's running Autocad very nicely on 3 GHz P4's with 128mb Radeon 9200SE AGP cards. They even have one machine running onboard Intel GMA 950 and the Autocad performance is acceptable - not great, but very usable. Bottom line - there's a budget here and a video card is easy to upgrade later if needed. The limited money is better spent on a dual core CPU and plenty of ram right now.

[pam123]

Okay.
1. AMD is releasing a new motherboard with a 940 pin socket in that time frame, don't go shopping till then. This will ensure that you get upgrade capability.
The board will use DDR2 so you'll be getting even more performance from the memory.
2. The X2 3800+ is on you list.
3. The entry level OpenGL card is on your list (I agree with GLC but the beginner card is only another $40 ).
4. What LCDs are you interested in?
You can buy one now and the second later so you can consider something you might not have.
I like Samsung but unless you have a definit favorite go to the nearest big box store and look at the monitors, the one who's picture is the best to your eye is the one you want (Don't get carried away here. You need 2 monitors that fit on your desk, unless you intend to redecorate the room.).
5. You can use on board sound.
6.Don't use RAID.
Start with one large hard drive and add another (others) as needed.
7.You need a DVD-ROM drive and a DVD burner.

Agreed?

[kentuckyser]

Well, just got off the phone with my business partner. Looks like I will be ordering this stuff tomorrow. 2 of everything to build 2 of the same computers. It seems I can go over the $900 budget, if it's what we need, then that's what we need.

I will be looking at 19" LCD monitors, I don't know what brand, but does it matter that much? I think I may be interested in widescreen.

Pam, you recommended this card:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102436

GLC recommended this card:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814131009

I will buy whichever one is better, I just need to keep total cost under $1000. Sorry about changing the budget, but I just got the "go ahead" from the money man.

Pam, will the card you suggested allow me to run dual monitors?

The 940 motherboard you suggested seems nice, but I don't have the time to wait on it. I'll have to go with the original mobo I had picked. Here is what I have so far, need to figure out the video card.

Antec Sonata II
Sony FDD
Seagate 250GB HD
Lite-On DVD ROM
Lite-On DVD RW
AMD X2 3800+
ASUS A8N-E
2 GB DDR PC3200
Video Card??

[kentuckyser]

I just found these suggestions on the AutoCAD website for video card specs:

AutoCAD has features such as ShadeViewPort Plotting, Gradient Fills, and True Colors, which are best displayed using video cards with the recommended features.

Following are the recommended features:

* Anisotropic filtering. Advanced texture filtering technique that improves image quality for scenes with objects that extend from the foreground deep into the background.

* OpenGL. Standard API for CAD and scientific applications (very important feature).

* High-resolution anti-aliasing. Technique that reduces the visual impact of aliasing.

* RAM. On-board memory on the video card.

* Accelerated graphics port (AGP). A faster alternative to the PCI bus.

* Alpha blending. Alpha channel data stores the degree of transparency, ranging from opaque to completely clear.

* Graphics processing unit (GPU). Some video cards have their own processor.

* Z-buffer. The area of the graphics memory used to store the Z or depth information about rendered objects. The Z-buffer value of a pixel is used to determine if it is behind or in front of another pixel. Z calculations prevent background objects from overwriting foreground objects in the frame buffer.

[kentuckyser]

One more question. I plan on putting the 2GB RAM into this system, but I've got some other RAM laying around. I've got (2) 512 sticks of DDR2 PC2-3200 240 pin RAM, will this work in this proposed system to give me a total of 3 GB of RAM?

[bailey]

the more ram you have, the better it will run,

[kentuckyser]

I understand that, I'm asking if the (2) 512 sticks are compatible since they are DDR2.

[Alaron]

You cannot use DDR2 in the A8N-E, it physically won't fit. You need PC3200 DDR.

Video card wise, buy on budget. The X1600Pro will be fine, especially since you said the X300 you have now works fine for your needs.

Either card will let you run dual monitors.

Look at Samsung LCDs. The 940b is an excellent 19" LCD monitor.

[kentuckyser]

Thanks for the help. I went ahead and budgeted for the V3100 like Pam suggested, I like that option especially since it's tested, and recommended on the Autodesk website.

And yes, I will be using the Samsung 940b...one monitor on the DVI port, the other monitor on the VGA port.

[glc]

Before you order, look at this video card - it's a FireGL with dual DVI.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102664

[pam123]

Samsung monitors are a good deal.
You should have a solid pair of work stations when you're done.