Yet another "Need New Build Advice" Thread!

[Tetranitrocubane]

Hi everyone. Sorry to drop in out of the blue and spam questions, but my usual haunts and resources for this kind of advice have given me a rather lackluster reception, so I thought I'd try someplace new.

I'm currently planning out a new rig, and am in need of some advice for selecting the right components. It's been three years since my last build, so I'm rather out of the loop and hoping for some guidance. I'm trying to keep the following priorities at the top of the list:

1.) Cooling: I never overclock, but I always wind up having a CPU, Northbridge, and GPU temp that are way above what I'd like to see (My current P4 idles at 40 C, and my 7800 GS idles at 51C). I'm hoping to find solutions that don't involve water cooling, so I'm looking into bigger case fans and after market coolers.

2.) Stability: I know that certain brands don't play well together, but I don't know which, so if any of the components I've chosen look like they'll conflict, I'd like to know!

3.) Noise: My current rig sounds like a jet engine. I'd like a quieter solution, but I won't sacrifice cooling for quiet.

Also, I do NOT plan to overclock, and SLI is not important to me. This will be primarily a gaming rig, so I'd like something that will run BioShock at the very least!

Components:

Case: LIAN LI PC-7B plus II

Optical Drives: 2 X LITE-ON 20X DVD±R

Hard Drive: Western Digital Caviar RE WD3200YS 320GB

Video Card: EVGA 640-P2-N821-AR GeForce 8800GTS 640MB

Sound Card: Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer 7.1

PSU: CORSAIR CMPSU-620HX ATX12V 620W Power Supply

CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E6750 (Once it comes out on July 22nd! I'm waiting for the price drop, so there's no link for this one yet).

After market CPU Cooler: ARCTIC COOLING Freezer 7 Pro 92mm CPU Cooler

I am uncertain about the following components:

Motherboard: GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3R LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard

Memory: Mushkin 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800

I would really appreciate any advice regarding the Motherboard and Memory. Since I'm waiting for the price drop and the E6750 CPU, I know that I'll need a motherboard with a 1333 MHz FBS, and thus can't use a P965 motherboard. I don't know if I should go with a P35 chipset, or an nForce 680i chipset. I keep hearing horror stories about how some these motherboards won't boot out of the box with Core 2 Duo processors, or won't boot with any RAM that isn't rated at 1.8V, without a BIOS flash. The unfortunate fact is that I'm on a budget and can't really afford to buy another processor or memory just for the purpose of flashing the BIOS. All my existing hardware is too old to use for that purpose, and I know noone from whom I might borrow a CPU or memory.

If anyone can recommend a very solid, stable, and easy to set up motherboard and memory combo, I would be very appreciative!

I'm also trying to keep it about ~$1500. The components listed come to ~$1400 before shipping (assuming that the E6750 actually does cost $185 or so). I have a bit of wiggle room, but not much.

[doubledragon5]

I read there is suppose to be a noticable performance increase over the E6600 so that sounds like a good choice in cpu.. Have you checked out the ASUS line of boards? Look at the P5B series that is what is recommended around here. Also check out the Corsair value select for ram especially if your not going to OC. That PSU is a good choice but the 520W will be enough to handle your needs as far as power goes.. I wouldn't go with a after market cooler, because if you use it your cpu warranty will be void...Other than that looks good..

[Jimmy0]

Motherboard: Asus P5K
RAM: Corsair VS DDR2 667 2x1GB

[Tetranitrocubane]

Thanks guys. I chose out the Gigabyte motherboard since I saw that the P5K has some issues with whatever 'vDroop' means. I'm not super up to date with that kind of issue, but I didn't want to mess with it, since someone mentioned it needing a 'pencil mod', and that sounds beyond my experience.

If you guys recommend the Asus, though, then I'm all for it. I trust their name more than Gigabyte, anyway. As for the RAM, would DDR2 667 run better than DDR2 800? I'm not sure how much of a performance hit I'll be taking with the slower RAM, but I'm guessing not much?

[Tetranitrocubane]

Sorry to ask another question on top of all the rest, but I just had a rather disturbing thought:

Does anyone know if it will be possible to boot the P5K if I'm using an C2D e6750? The processor will be newer than the mobo, so it wouldn't surprise me if a BIOS flash would be required... Only I'd have no way to flash the BIOS without a processor!!

[LeftyAce]

I saw that the P5K has some issues with whatever 'vDroop' means

vDroop is when the motherboard doesn't feed the processor as much voltage as it is set to feed. It's mainly a problem when overclocking, and I can't imagine it's a major issue with an ASUS board. I wholeheartedly recommend them; I've built with 3 in the past year and all have been trouble-free. Mine's overclocking like a champ, despite the fact that that's not what I originally thought I'd be doing with it :-)

would DDR2 667 run better than DDR2 800? I'm not sure how much of a performance hit I'll be taking with the slower RAM

667 isn't better than 800; it's cheaper. And you won't take a performance hit, because the processor you're getting actually interfaces with the ram at a little above 533MHz. 800 speed ram would clock itself down to 667 unless you overclocked the system.

As far as the issue of the P5K supporting the new processor, it's possible that by the time the new processor is out the motherboards will be shipping with an updated BIOS. If not, you can grab a cheap-o processor to plop into the board to run the BIOS update, then install your new CPU. I see a Celeron D for $41 at newegg: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819112206

And don't worry about questions, they're the only way to learn stuff! (And it's how we all started out anyway :-)

[andper10]

Freezer 7 Pro is cheaper than newegg here: http://www.svc.com/acfzp7.html

You only need the Corsair 520W for a single video card setup. I have a Corsair 520W and it is great. Cheaper than newegg here: http://www.buy.com/prod/corsair-520w...203270716.html

I would say get the Asus P5K Motherboard: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131180

Try onboard sound first unless you are an audiophile or a hardcore gamer.

We recommend the Seagate 7200.10 Series. It has Perpendicular Recording Technology which makes it really fast: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822148140 . Plus it is cheaper than the WD 320GB Drive.

You could get one of those DVD Drives in the Lightscribe version for $2 more: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827106072

If you want cooling over quiet then you will probably end up with a loud system. If you want quiet I would recommend an aftermarket CPU Cooler. The Freezer 7 Pro has a good reputation. Also Yate Loon 120mm fans are known for quiet and good airflow: http://www.jab-tech.com/YATE-LOON-12...2-pr-3009.html P4's run hot. Mine gets up to 55*C while gaming. So don't worry about that. And all modern video cards run hot. Mine (X1950XT) gets in the 70's*C. The general rule of thumb is if your computer is stable then don't worry too much about the temperatures.

Personally I would get a cheaper processor and a more expensive video card (i.e. a 6320 C2D and an 8800GTX) but I don't know what exactly you want to do with it.

Enjoy your build!

[Tetranitrocubane]

Thanks guys! As per the advice given here, I'll likely back off on the power supply. I like having a big power supply installed for the purpose of future-proofing, considering that every video card I buy seems to require an upgraded PSU (even if the current one is within spec!). I'm currently running a lesser system on a 600W, which is why I went with the 620... But if a 520 will be more than enough, I'll go with it.

Also, I didn't know that after market CPU coolers void the warranty on my CPU. Will the stock C2D cooler be acceptable? I've heard that they're actually cumbersome and inefficient.

I'll also look into that perpendicular seagate. I didn't know those were available yet!

As for the issue of P5K compatibility with the e6750 - I've read that the e6750 has been supported by that mobo since BIOS revision 0603, according to Asus. Is there any way to tell what BIOS revision the board has before I take the plunge?

Oh! And as a last note: What OS would you guys recommend for gaming on this build? I have access to XP 64-bit, and Vista Business. Vista seems more future proof with the Microsoft push going on. But XP seems like it, you know... Works.

[LeftyAce]

The stock C2D cooler is tricky to install, but it performs just fine.

Take a look at the detailed specs on newegg, I think the BIOS revision might be one of them.

I'd go XP regular 32-bit. Vista either has major driver issues or just doesn't peform as well in games (the OS eats alot of resources). XP 64 bit was never very stable, and you don't need 64bit unless you go for 4GB+ of ram, which is overkill for modern games....

There's always time to upgrade to vista, and the reliability should improve. XP Home OEM edition is $89 on newegg.

[alanebro82]

I have XP 64bit and have had no problems at all (except that it only detects 1 of my 2 lan ports... but I only use 1 anyway so, meh...). I enjoy 64-bit because it is much less susceptible to a virus.

[Tetranitrocubane]

Thanks for all the help to date, guys. You've all been a big help, and I really appreciate it.

Sorry to dredge this post up from the depths again. The new processors should be breaking out soon, so I'm trying to finalize things before I take the plunge, and I have one final question for you all if you can tolerate it!

For the motherboard, I know I want to try and go with an ASUS P5K, as recommended. But would you guys recommend the vanilla P5K, or the revised P5K-C?

I suppose I could always take the plunge with the Deluxe version, but it's a bit pricey and that extra cash seems to go toward things I don't want or need (i.e. wifi, etc.) in a motherboard. I'm curious as to what would be the best choice, though, for stability and ease of set up. Again, I'll not be overclocking at all, but the new processors (e6750) should hopefully work without too much trouble.

Thanks again!

[LeftyAce]

I'd recommend vanilla. The differences I can see are that the C version has support for DDR3 (which is barely coming out, and is REALLY expensive).

For maximum future-proofing, get the "c", otherwise get the vanilla.

I would think that the vanilla would be more stable/easier to set up, but it's possible ASUS has the C version all worked out already. Realistically, there's nothing you're going to NEED on the C, just the ability to get the latest and greatest RAM very soon.

Don't worry about asking questions; it's the only way to learn :-)

[Tetranitrocubane]

Well, the E6750 hit the egg this morning, so I put in my order for everything and went with the vanilla P5K. Hopefully everything will go smoothly when the build happens, though I may be back here asking for assistance if things go awry (Should I use this thread for that, heaven forbid, if it happens?). All the advice given was solid, though, so I'd only expect problems if something is DOA.

Thanks for all the help everyone. Particularly you, Lefty! You're all aces in my book.

[LeftyAce]

Definitely use this thread for problems. That way anyone reading can see your system specs, etc.

When you first get the components, follow this procedure for testing: http://forum.pcmech.com/showthread.php?t=132409

The thread says "having trouble with a new build..." but even the veteran builders on the forum follow these procedures to test out the core components before putting stuff in the case. As you'll learn, there's nothing more aggravating than getting a motherboard into and out of a case :-)

[Tetranitrocubane]

Thanks! I'll be sure to do an out-of-the-case test according to that thread before I start the serious building. It's been about three years since I had to do it last, but I remember that it's a significant pain in the butt to get everything oriented correctly in a case, only to have to rip it all out again.

I do have one last question, though. The Memory I ordered wasn't available, so I wound up going with the Corsair memory listed in the P5K manual's QVL - It's a twin pack of CORSAIR XMS2 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400).

What they gave me was the same model number specified on the QVL (CM2X1026-6400C4), but a different part number than newegg shows (XMS6404v2.1 is what shipped). Apparently these sticks are Promos, and a quick google search shows many people hate `em. Am I going to be okay with this memory? I bought it just because it was on the QVL for the P5K, and thought I'd be safe, even if they are a tad bit expensive. And additionally, do I need to manually set their timings and settings in the BIOS, and if so, how? I don't really know the first thing about that!

[LeftyAce]

Not sure about people hating them....

The bios should configure stuff automatically. The ram is faster/better than you need unless you decide to overclock, thus it's more expensive. The board should slow the ram down to the right speed automatically, so you should have no issues there.

[Tetranitrocubane]

When I put the model number into Google, most of what came back was from enthusiast / overclocking forums, so it was all probably a little skewed. The stuff may not be great for large overclocks, I guess, but I'll just give it a shot and see what happens.

In the interest of learning more, how can you tell the default speed at which the RAM will interface with the CPU? Is it just the FSB speed, times two since the memory is dual channel?

Newegg was super fast getting me most of the parts, but I'm still waiting on the drives and a few other pieces. Hopefully I'll pull it all together this weekend and see if I can get it up and running on XP (32 bit). Reading around the Asus forum seems to indicate that the P5K has some SATA issues, but hopefully a BIOS flash will take care of that.

Thanks again for all the help. Chances are I'll be back to ask more questions!

[LeftyAce]

By default, DDR ram takes the front side bus speed and doubles it (DDR = Double Data Rate).
You can use cpuz to see how fast your FSB is running, and what the ram is doing, as well as info about your motherboard ,bios, and cpu: http://www.cpuid.com/cpuz.php
Dual channel has to do with how much ram the computer can access at once, and is slightly different.

[Tetranitrocubane]

Ah, I get it. Thanks for the info. I'm learning more and more, even if I am a bit slow on the uptake Thanks for continuing to help me out!

I have been wondering about another question, though. According to various forum posts I've read, it should be possible to start up the P5K with the E6750 - at least enough to get into the BIOS. I'm planning on doing a bare-bones startup with just the CPU, Heatsink/fan, video card, and one stick of memory, and then flashing the BIOS with the EZ flash technique.

If I attempt to flash the BIOS, should I first modify the CPU settings in the BIOS beforehand? Specifically, I'm wondering if I should set the FSB to 333 MHz with a 4X multiplier manually, and then reboot, and then attempt the flash.

[LeftyAce]

I've never heard of being able to 'sort of' run a cpu w/o a bios upgrade. Usually, things work or they don't. I'm not sure I'd risk updating the bios with a CPU that isn't supported; a bad BIOS flash will necessitate replacing the BIOS chip (if that's possible) or the whole motherboard.

I'd get a cheap compatible CPU and flash that way.

[Tetranitrocubane]

There are a few posts on the official Asus forum (Which is down as I check now) of people who flashed from the BIOS using EZ-Flash, even after receiving the UCode CPU error. But I can see how it may not be a risk worth taking.

I admit I'm highly nervous about seating the CPU and Heatsink to begin with, though. I'm rather hoping I can do it once and be done with it. I'm not used to putting a processor in there, and then removing it - Can that damage the board at all? The fan looks so unwieldy, I'd be afraid it's not going to come off without damaging the board.

Unfortunately the processor you linked to several posts ago isn't supported by the p5k either, but there are lots of options to choose from, so maybe that's the best route to take. (Edit: I think this one is compatible, though, so maybe I'll just pick it up.)

[LeftyAce]

Interesting that some people got it to work. I personally wouldn't risk it, but it's up to you.

Getting the heatsink on is a little tough, you have to press pretty hard. Getting it off is easy though. The heatsink has 4 posts which you twist into the locked position when installing, and when you untwist them it comes off pretty easily.

You have to do this out of the case so you can tilt the board and support it, etc. Might help to have another set of hands if you're concerned about being able to get it off. I've replaced that heatsink once by myself, and twice with help :-)

Agh, sorry about the bad link. What does the mobo say it supports?

[Tetranitrocubane]

I'll be doing this all on my own, so hopefully I won't damage things out of the case. I just never know when to force things, as I always try to avoid any pressure on the board. When I put together my old pentium 4 rig, my heart nearly stopped when I had to seat the heatsink in the bracket!

No worries! It was a cheap 775 CPU, and that's really all I need. Honestly I'm surprised the P5K doesn't support the celeron D. The supported CPU list for the mobo is here, though now that I look at it, the celeron I linked earlier is probably a bad choice, too. I really have no idea what BIOS revision I have, so I assume anything that's not supported in the earliest BIOS revision should be avoided for these purposes.

[Tetranitrocubane]

Okay - Build report time (with a few questions at the end)!

I spent pretty much the entire day yesterday putting things together. Oddly enough, it was a good way to spend a Saturday, in my opinion! There were a few heart-stopping moments in the process. Mounting that stock Intel heatsink and fan made me feel like I was about to snap my motherboard in half. I put the bare-minimum into the case, and when I finally got around to flashing the BIOS the first thing it said on reboot was "Bad CMOS Checksum". Talk about a panic attack! As it turns out, the P5K and most Asus boards have a bad checksum error prior to flashing, until you go in and restore defaults. Long story short, I think everything is up and running A-OK for now. But I do have a few residual questions, if anyone can help:

I just barely got the OS together and installed most of the required drivers, so I haven't pushed the machine too far yet. Does anyone know of any good tests I should run to ensure stability and check to ensure temperature levels are good? I was trying the nTune stability tester for a few minutes, until I read a few posts here and there online that say nTune is garbage that can damage hardware.

Temperature monitoring is a little wonky so far, too. Intel TAT shows some very odd CPU temps, idling around 13 - 18C, which is nonsense because it's below room temp. Speedfan says the temp is closer to ~25-30C, which matches the BIOS, but even that seems a bit low. Is there a preferred program where I can check the temperature of my CPU, motherboard, and GPU all at once?

And lastly, even though I let the BIOS take care of everything in terms of RAM timing and clocking, CPUz indicates that my memory is running at 400 MHz - Which I assume translates to 800 MHz with DDR. Does this mean the memory automatically overclocked? It seems stable enough, as I ran memtest for 5.5 hours before installing the OS, and it came back without errors. I just wonder if I should pull back to 667.

Thanks to everyone for helping me get this far! I'm not sure it's completely solid yet, but after reading through the Asus forums and newegg reviews, I was fearing the process would be a LOT more painful. The advice given here was incredibly helpful.

[LeftyAce]

Mounting that stock Intel heatsink and fan made me feel like I was about to snap my motherboard in half.

Yeah, I should have mentioned that. They're REALLY hard to get on :-)

Does anyone know of any good tests I should run to ensure stability and check to ensure temperature levels are good?

CoreTemp is good for monitoring Core2Duo processor temps. (Better than the ASUS PCProbe software and the ASUS BIOS, actually)

To stress the system, try SuperPi or Orthos. For a dual core processor, make a copy of the SuperPi folder and start two instances of the program, one from each folder. In the windows task manager, set the 'Affinity' of one to CPU Core0 and the other to CPU Core1. Tell both to calculate 16M or 32M digits, and watch the processor temps. For a C2D, the load temperature should stay in the 40s Celcius, depending on your room temperature. If it gets up to 60 you've got an improperly installed heatsink, but don't panic, as the processor shuts itself down to prevent damage at 85 degrees. If it gets to 60 though, shut it down and you'll need to re-do the heatsink.

Is there a preferred program where I can check the temperature of my CPU, motherboard, and GPU all at once?

CPU and Motherboard are almost always in the same program. Core temp will do both I think. GPU you'll need to use nVidia's "desktop manager" (I think that's what they call it). nTune is only dangerous if you use it to overclock from within windows. For monitoring, it should be fine. GPU temperatures are higher than CPU temps. My graphics card has an emergency shutdown at 120 degrees C, and usually runs between 40 and 70. If a processor got that hot, that would be a serious problem :-)

As far as the BIOS settings, if the computer is stable, leave it alone.

Congratulations on the successful build!

[Tetranitrocubane]

Originally Posted by LeftyAce CoreTemp is good for monitoring Core2Duo processor temps. (Better than the ASUS PCProbe software and the ASUS BIOS, actually) To stress the system, try SuperPi or Orthos. For a dual core processor, make a copy of the SuperPi folder and start two instances of the program, one from each folder. In the windows task manager, set the 'Affinity' of one to CPU Core0 and the other to CPU Core1. Tell both to calculate 16M or 32M digits, and watch the processor temps. For a C2D, the load temperature should stay in the 40s Celcius, depending on your room temperature. If it gets up to 60 you've got an improperly installed heatsink, but don't panic, as the processor shuts itself down to prevent damage at 85 degrees. If it gets to 60 though, shut it down and you'll need to re-do the heatsink.

Thanks again, Lefty. I just ran the Core Temp / SuperPi combination to check up on temperatures, and I'm still getting some rather odd results. At idle, Core Temp shows Core 0 at 12 C, and Core 1 at 18 C. The Tjunction is listed as 85 C (!!!). Speedfan shows a more reasonable ~25 C at idle.

When SuperPi is run (Two instances, one for each core, with affinity set to CPU 0 or 1 respectively), then CoreTemp reports ~29 C for Core 0 and ~34 C for Core 2. Tjunction does not move from 85 C (That still seems worrisome!). Speedfan reports roughly 36 C under this load. I should note that under load, Speedfan also reports similar numbers for Core 0 and Core 1, but a more reasonable overall CPU value.

I'm a bit lost here, I admit. I'm not sure which numbers are genuine, and which are likely to be flawed!

[LeftyAce]

Aha. Tjunction. That freaked me out on my first C2D build as well. That's just the processor reporting at which temperature it will shut down to prevent damage. The ASUS monitoring program and SpeedFan both average that value in with the 2 real temperatures, giving you an overall temp that's too high.

The C2D is a very cool running processor.
Stick with CoreTemp; the 12 and 18 C at idle are probably right...what's your room temperature?

[Tetranitrocubane]

Ah, phew! I suppose that makes a lot more sense then. Thanks for relieving that panic. I thought it was the temperature at the junction between the two cores for some reason.

Right now room temperature is roughly 23 C, as I'm keeping the room air conditioned (It's nasty outside). I guess I should also note that the case I linked in the opening post wasn't the one I ultimately went with. I got an Antec nine hundred instead, so the CPU has fans directly above and behind it in the case. Still, I don't think that fans could drop the temp quite that low. Maybe it's an internal hardware or temp monitor flaw?

[LeftyAce]

My research on AMD temperature probes a few weeks ago turned up the fact that they're only accurate to something like +/- 10 degrees, so if yours are anything like that, the difference you're seeing is understandable.

If everything's performing well, and temperatures don't skyrocket when the processor is under full load, you're fine.

[Tetranitrocubane]

Things seem to be progressing well enough at this point. I'm just trying to ensure that the heatsink was to be seated properly, but from what you say, it looks okay.

Thanks again!