advice for building a budget gaming PC

[dirty elf]

this will be my first complete build from scratch.. talking to a friend who claimed he was a whiz this is the build we came up with.. the idea was to start small but leave room to upgrade (mostly in the gfx card section)
i already have a monitor, keyboard, mouse, speakers, etc...

mobo: ASUS M3A78 AM2+/AM2 AMD 770 ATX AMD Motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131340

cpu: AMD Athlon 64 X2 6400+ Windsor 3.2GHz Socket AM2 125W Dual-Core Processor Model ADX6400CZBOX
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103228

PSU: OCZ GameXStream OCZ700GXSSLI 700W ATX12V SLI Certified CrossFire Ready Active PFC Power Supply
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817341002

GFX: EVGA 512-A8-N403-LR GeForce 6200 512MB 64-bit GDDR2 AGP 4X/8X Video Card
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130452
(was thinking starting small, with room to upgrade later.. hence the 700w power supply. what would be a good card to upgrade to later, like top of the line. obviously within my power supply limitations.. or a new one that you recommend)

4gigs of DDR2 ram

DVD burner

case - what are some options? any limitations?

HDD - i was going to just get a moderately sized 7200 WD, but reading around it sounds like some SSD's or 10,000 rpm drives are good for fast OS booting.. maybe an option for me to upgrade in the future? i dont know anything about that so any info would be helpful.

sound card.. this mobo has onboard sound right? why would i need a sound card?


this computer will be used mostly for gaming, with minimal CAD/CAM for school/work, and minimal photo editing as a hobby with photoshop CS. no video editing or programing or anything like that.. im also trying to keep it under $500.. with a max limit of about $700.. but i also dont want to be left in the dust, i would be willing to spend more now to not have to upgrade the whole system in a year

ok i think thats everything, if you need anymore info from me feel free to ask

thanks

[Rev_pizzaguy]

That's a PCI-Express motherboard, not AGP... You need a PCI-Express graphics card like this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102820

Also, any reason for going with AMD? You could get an Intel E7400 for cheaper that uses less power and is more powerful for a little less:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...5206&Tpk=e7400

Which would require a different motherboard... You could get an Asus P5KPL-CM if you are on a tight budget, but go for an Asus P5Q-Pro if you want something newer and more options for expansion:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131299

[Masaki 7-11]

@ dirty elf: looks like you have a pretty goo d build so far, except for the video card; like Rev mentioned above, that card is not compatible with your build, and provides gaming performance worse than current integrated solutions; this would be a much better option and provides good gaming performance: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814161262.

I think the processor you picked out is a bit overpriced; the Athlon 64 X2 7750 which is based off the K10 architecture has similar performance and costs a lot less: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103300.

Coolermaster has some good cases, their lower end are pretty good and inexpensive. One limitation of cases is size; some of the really high end cards require a lot of space, this case should be fine for you and not cost very much: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811119115.

A decent sized 7200RPM HDD will provide pretty good performance and won't cost too much; 10K RPM Hard Drives and SSDs do have some performance advantages, however they are very expensive in terms of price per gigabyte and are most useful in higher-end computers.

The motherboard does have integrated sounds, and it should be fine for you; a discrete sound card may be needed/wanted when using higher end speakers/headphones/recievers.

[Rev_pizzaguy]

This hard drive would be a very good, fast drive:

Western Digital Black 750GB:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136283


Also,

Originally Posted by Masaki 7-11 I think the processor you picked out is a bit overpriced; the Athlon 64 X2 7750 which is based off the K10 architecture has similar performance and costs a lot less: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103300.

If you buy that processor, remember that Black Edition AMD processors do not come with a heatsink/fan! You would have to purchase your own separately. For the price, an Intel E5200 will perform better than an AMD X2.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819116072

[Masaki 7-11]

Originally Posted by Rev_pizzaguy This hard drive would be a very good, fast drive: Western Digital Black 750GB: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136283 Also, If you buy that processor, remember that Black Edition AMD processors do not come with a heatsink/fan! You would have to purchase your own separately. For the price, an Intel E5200 will perform better than an AMD X2. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819116072

Seems like the new black edition processors do come with a heatsink; a lot of the reviews for the black edition processors mention stock heatsinks; none of them say that there is no heatsink. The E5200 is almost equally matched with the Athlon X2 7750: http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/cpu...00-oc-review/1 (this review talks mostly about overclocking, but also has a lot of results running stock).

[Rev_pizzaguy]

Wow, that's not too bad, then. Last I checked, Black Edition's didn't come with a heatsink at all! Looks like those two proc's are pretty close in performance, just depends on the board you get as to how far you can overclock them (to-MAY-to/to-MAH-to)

[Masaki 7-11]

Originally Posted by Rev_pizzaguy Wow, that's not too bad, then. Last I checked, Black Edition's didn't come with a heatsink at all! Looks like those two proc's are pretty close in performance, just depends on the board you get as to how far you can overclock them (to-MAY-to/to-MAH-to)

Right, if overclocking was a consideration for this build, I would definetly take the E5200 over the X2 7750. If there isn't any overclocking, I've found AMD systems to be a bit more stable with current processors.

[dirty elf]

thanks for the replies, after a quick read over of them.. there was no reason I was going with AMD... it was just the one we picked out (actually we had picked out a windsor dual core 3.0 ghz, but i cant seem to find it on newegg, i assume they just upgraded to this model.. its very similar)

i goofed on picking the gfx card, it was late (or early) but im looking to start small and upgrade.. and im sure that i want nividia (had too many problems with ati in the past, i would be willing to pay more for the same quality nvidia card within reason because of it) what would be some cards i should be looking at working towards as an upgrade?

nobody said anything about the power supply, is the one i picked out reputatible and sufficient?

i would only be doing mild overclocking (if any) on this system... as i said this is my first build, i dont want to get crazy with it yet, its a learning experience for me

im looking at the mobo more closely now because of my want to upgrade down the line, what are some key things i should be looking for if i want to be able to upgrade in the future?

thanks, and sorry for all the questions.. want to get it right the first time

[Rev_pizzaguy]

ATI has gotten a lot better since AMD took over them. They are probably the best performance for the price right now, and you don't have all the renaming issues that Nvidia has (for example, my card, the 9600GSO, started off as an 8800GS, went to 9600GSO, revision with different hardware named the 9600GSO in it's place, renamed to GT 130). If you really want an Nvidia, the 9600GT is pretty good for the price right now:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814127362

[Masaki 7-11]

Right now Nvidia is not very price competitive with AMD; the 9600GT costs about the same as the HD4830 but the performance is a decent bit less. (Small note about the 9600GSO; it now only has 48 shaders, so performance is a lot worse than the 9600GT) The one card which is pretty competitive from nvidia is the GTS250: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130468

The power supply linked to above is very good and provides a lot of headroom for future upgrading.

[dirty elf]

i forgot that ati is now AMD. i guess it was the old ATI that i despised so much

in my searching around it seemed that the two were relatively closely priced, i dont know much about gfx cards and what to look for when comparing them.. (i mostly looked at memory)

to start off i want a pretty basic card.. it seems like (im probably wrong) the cards that you guys posted would be kinda in between basic and high end

what are some of the higher end cards that i should be looking at down the road from nvidia, and ati?


edit: i guess its also worth asking that a dual core is what I want right? most everyone seemed to tell me that for gaming a dual core is what you want.

[Masaki 7-11]

Originally Posted by dirty elf i forgot that ati is now AMD. i guess it was the old ATI that i despised so much in my searching around it seemed that the two were relatively closely priced, i dont know much about gfx cards and what to look for when comparing them.. (i mostly looked at memory) to start off i want a pretty basic card.. it seems like (im probably wrong) the cards that you guys posted would be kinda in between basic and high end what are some of the higher end cards that i should be looking at down the road from nvidia, and ati? edit: i guess its also worth asking that a dual core is what I want right? most everyone seemed to tell me that for gaming a dual core is what you want.

Right now there isn't much point in getting a "basic" card for a gaming pc as you will be really dissapointed in the performance, a $55 HD4650 will play most games at high/medium settings up to 1680x1050 resolution. Depending on what settings/resolution you want to play games at, it might make the most sense to get a good $100 video card ($100 gets you a long way in terms of graphics card performance) and upgrade it with another $100 video card in 2 years. In terms of CPU, it's not that you want a dual core for a gaming PC, it's just that dual cores usually provide better bang-for-the-buck in terms of gaming performance than triple or quad-core.

[dirty elf]

when you say add another card later on, you are talking about SLI / Crossfire right? from what i understand that basically doubles the power?

that seems like a very viable option

other than for sli/crossfire what would you need two gfx cards for? multiiple displays?

[Masaki 7-11]

Originally Posted by dirty elf when you say add another card later on, you are talking about SLI / Crossfire right? from what i understand that basically doubles the power? that seems like a very viable option other than for sli/crossfire what would you need two gfx cards for? multiiple displays?

Although sli/crossfire is an option; I was suggesting that you get a new replacement for the graphics card in about two year's time for the same price. Sli/crossfire don't double the performance, usually it is increase by only about 1.6 times at max; video cards at a price point increase in performance by at least 2x every two years.

[dirty elf]

that was my plan all along

i guess it would be better now to get a decent "middle" card and just go super high end if i feel the need later.

another thing i cant figure out is why the processor i had orig picked out was so expensive? there are plenty of other ones listed on this thread that are said to perform just as well as that one, but half the cost.. seems like a no brainer to me, i must be missing something. i dont quite under stand how it all works yet.. im getting there

edit: im really starting to like this processor http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103300

if i wanted down the road to go aftermarket cooling it seems i could OC it pretty well, what would be a comparable intel chip?

[Masaki 7-11]

Originally Posted by dirty elf that was my plan all along i guess it would be better now to get a decent "middle" card and just go super high end if i feel the need later. another thing i cant figure out is why the processor i had orig picked out was so expensive? there are plenty of other ones listed on this thread that are said to perform just as well as that one, but half the cost.. seems like a no brainer to me, i must be missing something. i dont quite under stand how it all works yet.. im getting there edit: im really starting to like this processor http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103300 if i wanted down the road to go aftermarket cooling it seems i could OC it pretty well, what would be a comparable intel chip?

This would be the intel equivalent: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819116072

[dirty elf]

comparing the two what are the practical differences, they probably arent noticeable in use right?

[Masaki 7-11]

Originally Posted by dirty elf comparing the two what are the practical differences, they probably arent noticeable in use right?

Check out the link in post #5, it compares the two processors. At stock the Athlon X2 is about 10% better than the E5200, however the E5200 overclocks better than the Athlon X2 and provides better performance overclocked than the Athlon X2 overclocked. In reality you'll see very little difference between the two; 10% isn't very noticeable.

[dirty elf]

yeah im down for the amd.. what about ram? dont know much abot that either... other than make it match

[Masaki 7-11]

For ram you'll want to get some good quality DDR2-800 or DDR-1066 ram; there isn't too much difference between the two in terms of performance. You'll want to keep the CAS latency to about 5 or lower for AMD builds; some Intel motherboards have problems running with CAS latency of 4 or lower. Some good brands include Corsair, G.Skill, Kingston, Mushkin, and OCZ. Here is a good, inexpensive set of ram: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231122

[dirty elf]

i was reading on newegg (in the product reviews) and some people say that AMD chips dont support 1066 ram? is there any truth to this? i dont really understand what it means.

[Masaki 7-11]

Originally Posted by dirty elf i was reading on newegg (in the product reviews) and some people say that AMD chips dont support 1066 ram? is there any truth to this? i dont really understand what it means.

Only some AMD chips support 1066 ram and those that do support it only support 2 modules (like a kit of ram), the processors that support 1066 ram include the Athlon X2 7750 (K10), Phenom X4 (K10), Phenom X3 (K10), Phenom II X4 (K10.5), Phenom II X3 (K10.5), Athlon X4 (K10.5). K refers to the architecture (and used to stand for Kryptonite), K10 and up can use DDR2-1066 ram, almost all the other processors that AMD sells and is not listed above is K8 and doesn't support DDR2-1066 ram. All DDR2-1066 ram will automatically show up as DDR2-800 and you'll need to go into the BIOS to change the settings to meet the recommended specifications for DDR2-1066 to make it work at that speed.

[dirty elf]

i would have to change the ram to 1006 even with a supported K10+ chip?

so if i had the 64x2 7750 i would still have to change it?


and 4 gigs should be enough ram, right?

[Masaki 7-11]

Originally Posted by dirty elf i would have to change the ram to 1006 even with a supported K10+ chip? so if i had the 64x2 7750 i would still have to change it? and 4 gigs should be enough ram, right?

Since DDR2-1066 isn't a JEDEC approved speed; the highest JEDEC approved speed is DDR2-800; this means that if you want DDR2-1066 on ANY platform, you have to manually set it yourself in the bios. Like I said before though, you really aren't getting that much of an improvement boost from DDR2-1066 and the cost of moving from DDR2-800 to DDR2-1066 is pretty high for the low improvement boost. DDR2-1066 is good for higher end AMD builds (using Phenom IIs) and for high end Core 2 builds that will have high overclocks. 4 gigs should be more than enough, for the most part 1GB and higher for XP and 2GB and higher for Vista will keep the system running fast.

[dirty elf]

ram seems to be pretty cheap. i would just pick up 2 two gig sticks for like 50 dollars.


i have almost everything picked out except for the motherboard, there are so many and they are so similar... its a bit overwhelming.

1. why do they all have onboard video, i dont want it... why should i pay for it?
2. what kind of pci slots am i looking for? and what is the difference between all the different types (2.0 x16 x8 etc...)
3. what other things should i be looking at on a motherboard?


and the only other thing i dont have picked out yet is a HDD, im pretty sure im going to just get a standard 7200 rpm WD like 500 gigs or something.. its not worth it to get a 10000 rpm drive for my needs is it?

im trying to add up a list of parts and get a ballpark price, how much should i expect to spend on cables, connectors, etc...?

thanks


edit: what are reputable power supply manufacturers? i think the 700w OCZ one i had picked out can be had for less $

[Masaki 7-11]

Most lower end chipsets (and therefore lower end motherboards) have integrated graphics, in reality you aren't really paying anything for the integrated graphics (over not having integrated graphics) as there isn't any other less expensive chipset. In terms of PCIe slots, PCIe 2.0 has double the bandwidth of a PCIe 1.0 slot, meaning a PCIe 1.0 x16 slot is equivalent to a PCIe 2.0 x8 slot; for almost all cards (except for dual gpu video cards) PCIe 1.0 x16 or PCIe 2.0 x8 is enough.

A good inexpensive motherboard for AMD with a PCIe 2.0 x16 slot would use the 770 chipset which doesn't have integrated graphics; the motherboard in your first post is a pretty good model. In terms of quality Asus, Gigabyte and MSI have good build quality although they sometimes release bad models (you'll know if there is a large percentage of negative reviews). Asus has the most bells and whistles in terms of software features, easier overclocking and usually costs the most, Gigabyte has some bells and whistles in terms of software, has decent overclocking and usually costs less than the Asus motherboards, MSI has some bells and whistles in terms of software, somewhat difficult overclocking (I use MSI because I'm used to their BIOS and overclocking features) and cost either more or less than Gigabyte depending on the model.

In terms of features, you'll want to take a look at overclocking (if you will be doing that), expansion slots (ATX motherboards usually have more expansion options over mATX boards), ports (you'll want around 6 SATA ports, and at least 4 USB in the back; if you have any particular needs such as eSATA and/or firewire this is also something you should look at) and audio (if you plan on running surround sound, you'll want a motherboard with 5 analog ports if running analog or S/PDIF and/or digital coax ports if running analog). There are a lot more things you could be looking at, but the above covers a good portion of it.

A high capacity 7200RPM drive usually compares pretty well with a low capacity 10000RPM drive in terms of performance; any improvement you would get from a 10000RPM drive won't be drastic and won't really change your computing experience much.

Here is a thread on Power Supply brands: What Power Supply should I get? How many Watts? Who made it? Guide Inside.
A good low cost alternative to the PSU in your first post would be this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817341010

[dirty elf]

ok i have everything picked out except motherboard / gfx card

ill do that tomorrow, its getting late

i love suggestions / tips that you have for selecting these different components, so keep em coming

thanks

[dirty elf]

i think i have my gfx card narrowed down to one of these


for my first card im looking at these:
GeForce 8800 GT / 9800 GT -/- Radeon HD 4830

for my upgrade in the future i will look at these cards, or just get another one from above and SLI/xfire it
GeForce 9800 GTX+ / GeForce GTS 250 -/- Radeon HD 4850

good plan?


edit: looking at the 4830 i have linked above, would it be worth the few extra dollars to get something like this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814127424 the only difference i can see is a gig of video ram vs 512 mb

what would be better a 4850 with 512mb or a 4830 with a gig?

[glc]

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...deon,2218.html

[dirty elf]

ive been waiting for you to reply to my post for so long! lol

what do you think about the rest of the build? and any help or recommendations for the MB?