new build

[scuderia]

Hey, guys. I've been lurking around for a while, but this is my first post.
I've been meaning to get a new computer for a while and, frankly, I'm sick of shelling out money to Dell in return for a blue screen, so I've decided to build my own.

I want a stable yet powerful rig - no overclocking for now, but I'd like the option later - that I can use for school, and, more importantly, gaming (I'm selling my 360 and a few games to offset the cost).

Now, since I haven't kept up with the latest and greatest in computing for a while, my newbie benchmark is running Crysis full power with no problem.

For $1,035.79, including tax, I have:

39.99 Gigabyte X2 Midtower Black Chassis (not set in stone by any means.)
84.00 GB Corsair DDR3 RAM
229.99 MSI X58 Platinum SLI 17 ATX motherboard
229.99 Intel Core i7
99.99 Seagate 1TB 3.5" SATA 7200rpm HDD
204.99 NVidia GeForce GTA260 896MB
54.99 OCZTech 500W StealthXStream PSU
24.99 Samsung 22x DVD/RW SATA

This was thrown together with the help of a MicroCenter associate who works on commission. Any suggestions?

Thanks.

[Khalil]

Originally Posted by scuderia Hey, guys. I've been lurking around for a while, but this is my first post. I've been meaning to get a new computer for a while and, frankly, I'm sick of shelling out money to Dell in return for a blue screen, so I've decided to build my own. I want a stable yet powerful rig - no overclocking for now, but I'd like the option later - that I can use for school, and, more importantly, gaming (I'm selling my 360 and a few games to offset the cost). Now, since I haven't kept up with the latest and greatest in computing for a while, my newbie benchmark is running Crysis full power with no problem. For $1,035.79, including tax, I have: 39.99 Gigabyte X2 Midtower Black Chassis (not set in stone by any means.) 84.00 GB Corsair DDR3 RAM 229.99 MSI X58 Platinum SLI 17 ATX motherboard 229.99 Intel Core i7 99.99 Seagate 1TB 3.5" SATA 7200rpm HDD 204.99 NVidia GeForce GTA260 896MB 54.99 OCZTech 500W StealthXStream PSU 24.99 Samsung 22x DVD/RW SATA This was thrown together with the help of a MicroCenter associate who works on commission. Any suggestions? Thanks.

Welcome to PCmech forums.

MSI is a bad way to go, no support no RMA. Look into Asus motherboards if you want good support. Stick to Intel Chipsets.

I recommend going with an ATI 4870 instead of Nvidia and SLI, Sapphire and Diamond make very nice ATI cards

Spend a little extra and get a 650W+ power supply. OCZ is a good brand, but the best are Seasonic and FSP.

Good luck.

[scuderia]

Thanks.

Which Asus motherboard would you recommend that would keep me at $1,000?

Why ATI?

Will the 500W hinder my performance?

Sorry I'm asking so many questions, but this is entirely paid for by me, a 17 year-old kid in high school, partly by selling my much-loved 360. I want to know what I'm getting and why. Kinda why I wasn't too happy with the guy at Microcenter.. He did everything himself.

Could you possibly summarize everything you'd recommend in a $1,000 gaming rig with explanations?

[scuderia]

Sorry if I'm asking for a lot...

[glc]

I do not think i7 is worth the money - yet. If I were building a $1000 gamer, I'd stick with 775. Others here will say to go for the i7, and others will try to sell you on AMD.

Here is what I'd use, and of course my personal preferences do play a part - all items from Newegg, prices do NOT include shipping:

Coolermaster RC690 case - $75 - very roomy, high quality, well ventilated
Corsair 750TX PSU - $120 - best deal out there on a very high quality high power PSU
Asus P5Q Pro mobo - $120 - all you need
Corsair DDR2-800 2x2gb - $55 - all you need
E8500 CPU - $190 - fast fast fast, you don't need a quad for gaming yet.
WD Black 1TB - $110 - a lot more reliable than the Seagate
Lite-On or LG DVD burner - $25 - more reliable than Samsung
Radeon HD4870 1GB - $180 - best VC under $200

Total is $875. There are rebates on some items and I did NOT figure those in, what you get back will be gravy. I would guess that shipping will be ~$50, and you will have to pay sales tax only if you live in CA, TN, or NJ.

EDIT: I found some Crysis benchmarks:

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/d...x1050,818.html

The E8500 is within 5% of the i7 920. It also outbenches all non-i7 quads except the Extreme which is 1500 bucks. AMD is way down on this list, but note that it was run in 3Q 2008.

The only single video card that will outbench the 4870 noticeably in Crysis is a GTX 280, which is $340 or so. Upgrade later when the next generation of cards comes out and the price on today's high end cards fall.

[scuderia]

Thank you!

I'm selling my 360, so I have a few hundred dollars buffer. What would you recommend buying a little higher quality or a little more robust so I can upgrade later?
I was looking at the Corsair 850TX. It's only about $20-$30 more and it would make me more comfortable having a large buffer of power capacity for spikes and whatnot.

Would it affect cooling too much? From what I've read, good PSUs don't really contribute to in-case temperatures because they're self-cooled.

I was looking at these for a video card, worth the extra dough? Is the 2GB that much better?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102826
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102815

I don't need a $250 mobo?! Nice.

I'd like 6GB of RAM... Still stick with Corsair, right?

What's the full name of the E8500? Core 2?

[not important]

4GB (2 X 2GB) of RAM will be plenty.
E8500 Core 2 Duo Wolfdale: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115036

[Khalil]

The extra memory will help slightly but not much as both cards are 256bit, I think the 2GB on the card is a more of a marketing thing. If you want 2GB I recommend this, it is the one in my gaming Rig http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102768 but make sure you have 800w+ power supply if go with this beast.
6GB Memory is only useful if you going with a 64 bit operating system. Otherwise it is a waste of money, no more than a conversation piece.
What glc recommended to you is great, you will game exceptionally well with that hardware combo.

[glc]

775 boards are dual channel, not triple channel, so your next logical step from 4gb is 8gb. You need Vista 64 to take advantage of more ram than 4gb. I don't think you will need 2gb of video ram any time soon. The Coolermaster case mounts the PSU on the bottom. This makes cooling almost a nonissue. E8500 is a Core 2 Duo.

Your upgrades with 775 are pretty much locked now, what you see is what you get. However, by the time you need an upgrade, there will be yet another socket and platform so you will need a mobo/CPU/ram replacement anyway. Intermediate upgrades will be along the video card and maybe a quad core paths.

EDIT: NI and Khalil posted while I was - that's a beast of a card that Khalil has, but I don't think it's worth the price of 2 single cards AT THIS TIME for the improvement you will get. This is something to look at for an intermediate upgrade later, the price WILL come down. If you get that 850 watt PSU, you would be able to support Crossfire too - and the P5Q Pro is a Crossfire board. Khalil's card is essentially 2 4870's on one card - take 2 of those cards I recommended and Crossfire them and you are essentially doing the same thing.

[Khalil]

The 1GB video cards are more than plenty. Only reason I use the x2 is I run 2 instances of the same game on 2 different 24" monitors and I love to have the settings on high to enjoy the eye candy. I have 8GB DDr2 800 in my gaming rig with Vista 64 and I have yet to see my system use more than 3.4 GB memory.

[scuderia]

I'd like a mobo that I'm not locked into as far as upgrades go. I'm willing to spend a bit more for a more upgradeable unit, unless it's really, really not necessary..

[glc]

The P5Q Pro is all you need for a socket 775 build. It has 2 video card slots if you DO want to crossfire and it supports every socket 775 processor in existence except some OLD ones. Its only real limitation is it "only" supports 8gb ram. This is not really a limitation because there are very few 4gb DDR2 modules made, and the ones that are cost about $300 each.

Build the 775 for now, and when the 775 platform no longer does what you need, then replace the mobo/cpu/ram. The rest of the system should carry over to whatever is best at that time.

[scuderia]

Ok, sounds good.

What do you guys think about this case? Kinda gimmicky and has a top-mount PSU, but a 40cm fan is a 40cm fan...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811196032

[shadowpr]

Like the antec 300 more than that.

[glc]

Cases are personal preference. I would never use that case - not because of the gimmicky side panel or the PSU placement, but because it's only 0.6mm steel (flimsy) and the inside of it looks REALLY cheaply made.

[scuderia]

Ah, I didn't catch the thickness. What other cases would you recommend other than the rc690?
I love the Antec 900, and, if I can catch a sale at MicroCenter, I'll probably get that. But, just in case, anything else?

[Masaki 7-11]

Originally Posted by Khalil Welcome to PCmech forums. MSI is a bad way to go, no support no RMA. Look into Asus motherboards if you want good support. Stick to Intel Chipsets. I recommend going with an ATI 4870 instead of Nvidia and SLI, Sapphire and Diamond make very nice ATI cards Spend a little extra and get a 650W+ power supply. OCZ is a good brand, but the best are Seasonic and FSP. Good luck.

Not sure what you mean by no support, no RMA for MSI; if you are buying from Newegg, you handle the RMA and support through Newegg, you don't need to talk to MSI. The performance and quality of MSI motherboards is pretty close (and sometimes better than) that of Asus. MSI's website is pretty well done and they have very good BIOS and driver updates; many well known magazines (such as Maximum PC) and websites (such as Overclockers Club) are recommending MSI motherboards because the price, performance and stability is good; they have had a few flaky motherboards released before, however if you do a tiny bit of research you can easily tell if the motherboard is good or not (and this is true for all motherboard manufacturers). I've found Asus, Gigabyte, Intel (for non-overclocking boards) and MSI to be the best in terms of reliability and support.

[not important]

Originally Posted by scuderia Ah, I didn't catch the thickness. What other cases would you recommend other than the rc690? I love the Antec 900, and, if I can catch a sale at MicroCenter, I'll probably get that. But, just in case, anything else?

Cases are a personal preference. I really like my RC690 and my Antec 300. The 300 is the same as the 900 without the side window (that scratches very easily) and it's half the price of the 900.

[scuderia]

Build:
I changed the video card, what do you guys think? A close friend of mine who is incredibly well-versed in computers and who has built several, for himself and friends, recommended it. He is a self-proclaimed NVidia fan.

GPU:
2 x BFG Tech BFGEGTX260MC896OCBE GeForce GTX 260 Core 216 896MB 448-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card

$290.00

RAM:
CORSAIR 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model TWIN2X4096-6400C5

$54.99

MOBO:
ASUS P5Q Pro LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel Motherboard

$119.99

CPU:
Intel Core 2 Duo E8500 Wolfdale 3.16GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80570E8500

$189.99

CASE:
COOLER MASTER RC-690-KKN1-GP Black SECC/ ABS ATX Mid Tower Computer Case

$74.99

DVD:
LITE-ON 22X DVD Burner with LightScribe Black SATA Model iHAS222-06

$25.99

PSU:
CORSAIR CMPSU-750TX 750W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Compatible with Core i7 Power Supply

$119.99

HDD:
Western Digital Caviar Black WD5001AALS 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5

$59.99

Grand Total: $1,035.91

[glc]

That motherboard does not support SLI, just Crossfire. That means you can use a single Nvidia, a single ATI, or 2 ATI's in Crossfire. You cannot use 2 Nvidias in SLI. Please read this article.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...-gtx,2270.html

We were looking at the HD 4870 1gb. A single GTX 260 Core 216 is equivalent, if you prefer Nvidia for whatever reason, go for that instead. However, if you get the HD 4870, you can add another later for Crossfire.

The next step up is a HD 4850 X2 2gb. Nvidia does not have a worthy competitor at that price point. This is as much as I'd spend on ANY video card.

Past the point of reason: With exponentially increasing prices over $260 offering smaller and smaller performance boosts, we have a hard time recommending anything more expensive than the Radeon HD 4850 X2. While more expensive solutions perform impressively in multiple-card configurations at ultra-high resolutions, there’s just not enough of a gain compared to the Radeon HD 4850 X2, unless you play at resolutions beyond 1920x1200.

I am not criticising your friend for being a Nvidia fanboy - I have a Nvidia card in my XP machine - but in the scope of this build, it just doesn't fit in well unless you are going to be happy with a single GTX 260 or are prepared to spend over $300 for a single video card.

If your friend insists you do SLI, have him recommend a motherboard. I will not. It will have to have a Nvidia chipset, which in my opinion and experience is inferior to an Intel chipset. The only Intel chipsets that support SLI are for i7, and there we go opening that up again.

Let me guess - is your friend also an AMD fanboy? If so, have him spec you out an AMD build.

[scuderia]

No, he's not.

Ok, fixed:

GPU:
2 x SAPPHIRE 100259-1GL Radeon HD 4870 1GB 256-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card - Retail

$379.98

RAM:
CORSAIR 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model TWIN2X4096-6400C5

$54.99

MOBO: Is the turbo worth the extra $15?
ASUS P5Q Pro Turbo LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel Motherboard

$134.99

CPU:
Intel Core 2 Duo E8500 Wolfdale 3.16GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80570E8500

$189.99

CASE:
COOLER MASTER RC-690-KKN1-GP Black SECC/ ABS ATX Mid Tower Computer Case

$74.99

DVD:
LITE-ON 22X DVD Burner with LightScribe Black SATA Model iHAS222-06

$25.99

PSU:
CORSAIR CMPSU-850TX 850W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Compatible with Core i7 Power Supply

$149.99

HDD:
Western Digital Caviar Black WD5001AALS 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5

$59.99

Grand Total: $1,102.90 After Shipping

[not important]

Looks like a solid build that will perform well. Do you really want a Lightscribe DVDRW? The media is more expensive, scribing is slow and the results aren't that impressive.

[glc]

It doesn't cost any more than a non- Lightscribe drive. It can use standard media.

Yes, I suppose it is worth 15 bucks more. It's the latest iteration on the P45 chipset.

A thought - if you are planning on using the turbo to overclock, you may want to get DDR2-1066 ram to give you a cushion there. In fact, it's almost the same price and it also has a rebate.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820145215

With that, as far as I'm concerned, you are ready to go!

[Smarsh]

I'm this, apparently, "close friend who is incredibly well-versed in computers" Heh, I felt like an absolute tard after I noticed putting SLI cards onto that chipset.. *facepalm* That's what I get for doing this in a tired state.

You obviously make good points, glc. I've always leaned towards nVidia cards from performance, driver, benchmark, and nVidia chipset experience. I just directed him to the two 4870s instead because it fit into his budget.

Though I will ask for some advice on a motherboard. He randomly picked the Turbo model; I went for the tried and tested P5Q Pro, and, not knowing how the Turbo performs, I didn't want to make a judgment on it. Feel free to add any other suggestions to that last build.

And to answer your question, I used to be an AMD "fanboy," but I somewhat gave up on them after Intel's huge performance lead.

EDIT: Looks like I was a bit late for the reply. I never bothered with a LightScribe drive, but he seems like he wanted that available. Thanks for the tip on the RAM and Mobo, glc, it looks like the build will work out great.

[glc]

I have no experience with the Turbo - but it looks like it has some useful features. One is it supports 16gb ram where the original supports 8gb. Right now, this is pretty useless due to the ridiculous cost of 4gb DDR2 modules if you can even find them. I *think* the PCI-Ex16 slots are faster but I can't prove it. The only thing that concerns me is the Turbo uses a Via audio chipset where the original uses a Realtek. However, it shouldn't make much difference as they both use the Intel HD Azalia codec. It also looks like they may use different addon IDE/SATA/eSATA controllers, but they both use the ICH10R for a main controller.

You know - something you could look at - instead of crossfiring a couple 4870's right away, what about a single 4850 X2? It's considerably cheaper, performs darn near as well, and later you can crossfire 2 of those suckers for some REAL power.

[scuderia]

If I do the 4850, will the 2GB be worth the extra $40?

[Khalil]

Originally Posted by Masaki 7-11 Not sure what you mean by no support, no RMA for MSI; if you are buying from Newegg, you handle the RMA and support through Newegg, you don't need to talk to MSI. The performance and quality of MSI motherboards is pretty close (and sometimes better than) that of Asus. MSI's website is pretty well done and they have very good BIOS and driver updates; many well known magazines (such as Maximum PC) and websites (such as Overclockers Club) are recommending MSI motherboards because the price, performance and stability is good; they have had a few flaky motherboards released before, however if you do a tiny bit of research you can easily tell if the motherboard is good or not (and this is true for all motherboard manufacturers). I've found Asus, Gigabyte, Intel (for non-overclocking boards) and MSI to be the best in terms of reliability and support.

Masaki, any comments or suggestions I make are based on experience, I buy hundreds of motherboards a month and I know what I am talking about. I don't buy anything from Newegg, I buy everything from the distributors newegg buy from. Magazines and Clubs are paid to make recommendations. The reality is a different ball game.
You saying MSI motherboards are good and that MSI has good support makes me wonder how much experience you really have. Please do not compare MSI to Asus, that is an insult to all of the real techs on this forum.

[Masaki 7-11]

Originally Posted by Khalil Masaki, any comments or suggestions I make are based on experience, I buy hundreds of motherboards a month and I know what I am talking about. I don't buy anything from Newegg, I buy everything from the distributors newegg buy from. Magazines and Clubs are paid to make recommendations. The reality is a different ball game. You saying MSI motherboards are good and that MSI has good support makes me wonder how much experience you really have. Please do not compare MSI to Asus, that is an insult to all of the real techs on this forum.

The thing is you are making a recommendation for a single customer based on your experience in a larger business sense; while you may have more experience with business computers where you buy in large amounts, I only buy in small amounts from retailers such as Newegg, so all my experience is from a normal consumer's point of view. While there are some magazines and websites are paid to do recommendations; the website and magazines I read, I've compared their recommendations and experience with the experience I've had with those products they recommend. I'd like you to explain how you wouldn't compare MSI to Asus; they both make good motherboards, use good quality parts (for most of their motherboards), have extensive motherboard support in the form of driver and bios updates. Please don't let bias get in the way of making a recommendation; while a company may have had issues at one point or you may have had a bad experience with them, it doesn't mean that the product is necessarily bad, I've found a lot of good brands to use when buying parts by being open to other people's experience and knowledge. A real tech is one that keeps learning; I'm not saying that I'm right, however if you seriously think that MSI doesn't compare to Asus, I'd like you to explain why.

[Khalil]

You are not getting the point. MSI customer support SUCKS! I will not recommend them to anyone because they do not answer the phone, they do not respond to emails, if this is how they treat someone like me who buys hundreds of motherboards at a time how do you think they will treat regular buyers.
I stopped paying attention to websites and magazines a few years ago because they are all paid through advertising, I can go now to any of those magazines and give them a crappy product and as long as I am willing to spend a ton of money advertising it with them they will write anything I want them to write. That is the reality.
I have learned a lot over the years from guys like glc and panamared and their advise was always right on the money. When I give advise on this forum out of respect to the forum and those who worked very hard to keep it going all these years I will only give sound, valid advise based on extensive experience, this is why I don't have as many posts as you do even though I have been here 2 years longer. I do not guess my answers.
I noticed since you joined this forum that if you buy something you tend to defend it life and soul.
I build a lot of gaming machines as well, I stick to Asus first and occasionally Gigabyte. Not because I own part of Asus or they give me a kick back, simply because they have very professional Customer Support and a very fast RMA system. That is the bottom line.

[Masaki 7-11]

Originally Posted by Khalil You are not getting the point. MSI customer support SUCKS! I will not recommend them to anyone because they do not answer the phone, they do not respond to emails, if this is how they treat someone like me who buys hundreds of motherboards at a time how do you think they will treat regular buyers. I stopped paying attention to websites and magazines a few years ago because they are all paid through advertising, I can go now to any of those magazines and give them a crappy product and as long as I am willing to spend a ton of money advertising it with them they will write anything I want them to write. That is the reality. I have learned a lot over the years from guys like glc and panamared and their advise was always right on the money. When I give advise on this forum out of respect to the forum and those who worked very hard to keep it going all these years I will only give sound, valid advise based on extensive experience, this is why I don't have as many posts as you do even though I have been here 2 years longer. I do not guess my answers. I noticed since you joined this forum that if you buy something you tend to defend it life and soul. I build a lot of gaming machines as well, I stick to Asus first and occasionally Gigabyte. Not because I own part of Asus or they give me a kick back, simply because they have very professional Customer Support and a very fast RMA system. That is the bottom line.

Whether or not MSI support sucks, for the first year when you are most likely to have problems with a motherboard (if you are to have any problems at all) you can get support directly from Newegg which I'm pretty sure it's a lot better than any manufacturer offers. Regarding magazines and such, while there is magazines and websites that will recommend based on being paid; Maximum PC doesn't seem to have this issue; they have addressed this issue in multiple magazine issues, my experience and reading through readers' comments they have done a good job of separating the editorial department from the advertorial department. Giving recommendations based solely on experience will always leave you missing something; after all you are probably not going to try many different combination of hardware to make sure they all work with that motherboard, in this case other people's experience and knowledge is very important. There is a difference between guessing answer and leaving room for error; with so much information available (and not all of it true), it is easy to make an error. I have used many different brands of parts and not all of my experience was positive; however I will defend my choices of parts when it makes sense as I usually put a lot of time into researching the parts and making sure that they are of good quality and compatible with other parts.