Building a PC for Computing??

[adaptusaaf]

Ok here's my problem - I've stripped everything from my poor computer it basically runs XP, internet services, and the programs I need (2 of them only). So it's not like im junking up my pc. It simply cant do what I need.

I need to either build my own (for budget reasons) or buy a pc that will run everything basic including a very computer intensive (but not graphic intensive) game. It will also need to run programs that are extremely computer intensive, quickly (think memory searchers)

I'm looking for the most optimal set up for this kind of thing. I installed Clearmem and Freemem thinking that I didnt have enough physical memory available. I was able to free up 400mb of my 512mb memory. Then I started the two programs, they were just as extremely slow as before. So maybe it's something else causing this particular program to go slow? Note: the game ran fine. Not the memory searcher though (slow when searching). I've used this program on someones laptop on a Gotomeeting application (remote desktop) it was lightning fast doing the same task. But I dont know his specs. Anyway that's what I'd like..

Any ideas? Thank you!

[systempat]

You don't give any specs but I'm guessing you are running some 5 year-old or older machine.
Any modern dual-core (or more) machine will give you a lot more capacity. You can run 2 3 or 4 cores at 2.5 gHz or more. The memory can start at 4 Gb - that's 4000 Mb) and the ddr2-800 or ddr3-1333 memory speed is a lot faster as well.
Depending on your other needs you can get into that kind of machine for around $400 on a DIY. If not ready to build there are systems to buy for about that price too. But on the built ones it pays to be very selective about the parts included, which can be hard to figure out.


What's a memory searcher? You have me curious. Sounds like something they would do in some laboratory to some poor guy.

[adaptusaaf]

thanks!,
$400 is a lot cheaper than I thought it would cost me, do you have any links to pcs like that in that price range?

a memory searcher is a program that searches the memory of another program and lets you see how it works. it converts everything back to basic assembly. an example is tsearcher, or artmoney, etc.

[adaptusaaf]

here is my current computer (slow when using the two programs)
what would I need for a better one? price range?


--------[ Summary ]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Computer:
Operating System Microsoft Windows XP Professional
OS Service Pack Service Pack 3
Internet Explorer 7.0.5730.11
Computer Name COMPUTER2007
User Name hfds
Logon Domain COMPUTER2007

Motherboard:
CPU Type Intel Pentium 4A, 2400 MHz (4.5 x 533)
Motherboard Name Compaq Evo D510 SFF
Motherboard Chipset Intel Brookdale-G i845G
System Memory 512 MB (PC2100 DDR SDRAM)
BIOS Type Compaq (12/30/02)
Communication Port Communications Port (COM1)
Communication Port Communications Port (COM2)
Communication Port ECP Printer Port (LPT1)

Display:
Video Adapter RADEON 9200 SE Family (Microsoft Corporation) (128 MB)
Video Adapter RADEON 9200 SE SEC Family (Microsoft Corporation) (128 MB)
3D Accelerator ATI Radeon 9200 SE (RV280)

Multimedia:
Audio Adapter Intel 82801DB(M) ICH4(-M) - AC'97 Audio Controller [A-1]

Storage:
Floppy Drive Floppy disk drive
Disk Drive ST340017A (40 GB, 7200 RPM, Ultra-ATA/100)
Optical Drive HL9342Y NLF846A SCSI CdRom Device
Optical Drive HL9342Y NLF846A SCSI CdRom Device
Optical Drive HL-DT-ST CD-ROM GCR-8480B (48x CD-ROM)

Partitions:
C: (NTFS) 38154 MB (13195 MB free)

Network:
Network Adapter D-Link AirPlus DWL-520+ Wireless PCI Adapter
Modem Communications cable between two computers

----------CPU-------------
CPU Properties:
CPU Type Intel Pentium 4A, 2400 MHz (4.5 x 533)
CPU Alias Northwood, A80532
CPU Stepping C1
Original Clock 2400 MHz
L1 Trace Cache 12K Instructions
L1 Data Cache 8 KB
L2 Cache 512 KB (On-Die, ATC, Full-Speed)

CPU Physical Info:
Package Type 478 Pin uPGA
Package Size 3.50 cm x 3.50 cm
Transistors 55 million
Process Technology 6M, 0.13 um, CMOS, Cu, Low-K
Die Size 131 mm2
Core Voltage 1.475 - 1.55 V
I/O Voltage 1.475 - 1.55 V
Typical Power 38.7 - 82 W (depending on clock speed)
Maximum Power 49 - 103 W (depending on clock speed)

CPU Manufacturer:
Company Name Intel Corporation
Product Information http://www.intel.com/products/browse/processor.htm

CPU Utilization:
CPU #1 3 %

[glc]

Yep, that computer is a dinosaur.

Exactly what game do you need to run? What are its graphics requirements?

[systempat]

That's pretty slow nowadays. A single processor and slow memory PC2100 translates to - I have to look this up - DDR266. That's worse than I thought. Memory speed and disk performance are real bottlenecks.
Where you go depends on 2 things. Budget and whether you want to build it yourself or not. Build it yourself is a question you'd have to answer.

Most on this board are advocates of building it themselves, or at least getting a techie friend to do it. You can specify exactly what you want for disk capacity, video board speed, processor power, amount of memory. But software will not be bundled, you have to buy separatley. And there's nobody to hold your hand or troubleshoot with you. And warrantees will be on individual components, not the whole system. If you build from better-quality parts, I believe it will last longer compared to some of the compromises put in retail machines. Advice here can help on the quality of parts.

A retail system has pluses and minuses too. Let me use buying from Dell for example. Not advocating Dell but they are a big name. Buying online from them, systems can be configured to your spec, then shipped quickly. So you're not just stuck with what's on the shelf at Best Buy or other big box stores. If a package has close to what you need, it can be had at a good price. If you have to upgrade too many of the choices they can kill you on the upgrades, like bigger disk drive or updated video or memory. And they WILL come preloaded with a Windows operating system. Either Vista or Win7. They seem to be rapidly moving to Win7. Not necessarily bad, but if you wanted to stick with XP pro and move it to the new machine, could be a problem. But you will get a warranty and some support.

Now as to your needs? What's the biggest requirement? As GLC said is there a particular game that you want to run? Or some other program. Budget - it can start around 400 if you don't need a monitor and work up to 600-700 with more power, storage or video.

[adaptusaaf]

ok!! sorry for taking so long i sent an email to the guy who created the program that runs slow on my computer asking him what advice he can give on the matter and he said:

"you mainly need a fast cpu, fast harddisk, and memory running at least at normal speed (at least 4gb)"

He also said:

"a core part of the program is mostly dependent on the amount of ram you have and on your harddisk write speed"

The monitor I have now is fine no need for a new one, I also have keyboard and mouse already, and I have an external 250gb hard-drive so I don't really need a ton of space if it costs a lot more or doesn't help with the speed.

Is that enough information?

Edit: Also is it possible to use parts like the CD Rom from this junk computer in the one I build to save money? Even possibly use the graphics card and upgrade later, unless an old graphics card bottlenecks speed.

The case is small for a pc though (Compaq Evo) so I doubt I can use it to build my own but if not I dont need any aesthetics whatsoever just speeed and cheapness

[glc]

Don't even try to recycle any of those Compaq parts except the wireless adapter. To do it right, you need to spend more than $400. How much can you afford for the tower and its contents and a new operating system? (You can't reuse the Compaq preload).

[adaptusaaf]

Well I guess I can afford whatevers neccesary for the tower, I dont need fanciness, ventilation/cooling would be nice since from this junk pc experience, it gets hot when it tries too hard and gives me blue screen of death. But if the pc is really fast then maybe it won't have that problem.

We have windows XP that my dad bought ages ago and my sisters have gotten computers too so we normally use that is there something that I'm missing?

My budget is basically 'the best deal' possible on speed and performance. Like I don't want state of the art hardware that costs five times as much as it will next year, but I also don't want old parts that will only work good for another year. So basically the 'deal of the day'. anywhere up to $1000 but don't want to spend that much..

$400 even if I use my own monitor, keyboard, mouse, wireless adapter, and already own XP seperate from this preload?

Btw the keyboard and mouse are brand new and having nothing to do with compaq, and the monitor is separate too.

[glc]

$1000 Gaming Build *First time*

There's $950. You will need a USB floppy drive to install XP on that. Drivers are required and there is no longer an internal floppy controller. Subtract $90 for an i5-750 and subtract about $75 for a lower end video card such as a HD4670.

[Masaki 7-11]

This is probably the best bang-for-the-buck you can get for around $500:


LITE-ON Black 24X DVD Writer Black SATA Model iHAS-324-98
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827106334
$31.99

Antec Three Hundred + BP430 Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case 430W Power Supply
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811129065
$79.95

Western Digital Caviar Black WD7501AALS 750GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136283
$79.99

ASUS M4A77TD Pro AM3 AMD 770 ATX AMD Motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131397
$89.99

HIS Hightech H467QT512P Radeon HD 4670 IceQ Turbo 512MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814161252
$64.99

Crucial 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model CT2KIT25664BA1339
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820148262
$69.99

AMD Athlon II X4 620 Propus 2.6GHz Socket AM3 95W Quad-Core Processor Model ADX620WFGIBOX
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103706
$99.00

Subtotal: $515.90

Also to clarify what GLC said about floppy and drivers; you only need that if you want to install the Hard Drives as AHCI or RAID; by default the SATA drives will show up as IDE (or you can change it in the BIOS to do so) meaning you don't need the drivers unless you want the features of ACHI or want to install onto a RAID array.

[ceh4702]

Some Anti-virus and spyware programs can really slow a XP computer down. If your computer has been updating through windows update, sometimes programs will quit working and have to be reinstalled. 512 megs of RAM will run XP, but some programs want more RAM. I would not try upgrading anything that old though.

I have a computer at work that I do scanning on and it has 512 megs of RAM and I am constantly haveing problems with some of my programs running out of memory. It will run for a few hours and then it just gives me the old running out of Memory or cant address reference location message. I think it is just the lousy program not handling memory correctly and building up a big memory hole. It is just plain old slow.

[adaptusaaf]

thanks you guys are great!!
a couple of questions:

I see glc's reccomendation is more expensive can someone tell me in newbie lingo how much faster it would be than masaki's reccomendation?


@masaki:

LITE-ON Black 24X DVD+R 24X DVD-R SATA Black 24X DVD Writer - Retail
31.99

Is there possibly a cheaper option for this I haven't used my CD drive in years, I don't cd games I play online ones you download that aren't major brands (you pay a subscription though)

Antec Three Hundred + BP430 Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case 430W Power Supply
79.95

Also this is there a cheaper option? I know I said I wanted cooling and it looks like a great case but it also looks pretty which means there might be a way to save money with an ugly one?

like this one perhaps?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811147112


Also, I thought that drivers are things you can download from the internet so what's the problem? Are there two kinds of drivers?

[barch 88]

Originally Posted by adaptusaaf thanks you guys are great!! a couple of questions: I see glc's reccomendation is more expensive can someone tell me in newbie lingo how much faster it would be than masaki's reccomendation? @masaki: LITE-ON Black 24X DVD+R 24X DVD-R SATA Black 24X DVD Writer - Retail 31.99 Is there possibly a cheaper option for this I haven't used my CD drive in years, I don't cd games I play online ones you download that aren't major brands (you pay a subscription though) Antec Three Hundred + BP430 Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case 430W Power Supply 79.95 Also this is there a cheaper option? I know I said I wanted cooling and it looks like a great case but it also looks pretty which means there might be a way to save money with an ugly one? like this one perhaps? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811147112 Also, I thought that drivers are things you can download from the internet so what's the problem? Are there two kinds of drivers?

If you don't burn DVD's, or CD's, a basic drive like this would be fine for installing programs:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827118031

As far as the case goes, I think that one comes with the Power Supply as well, so the price is a bit higher. If you were to buy a different case (with no PSU), you would then also have to buy a Power Supply unit as well.

[Masaki 7-11]

Originally Posted by adaptusaaf thanks you guys are great!! a couple of questions: I see glc's reccomendation is more expensive can someone tell me in newbie lingo how much faster it would be than masaki's reccomendation? @masaki: LITE-ON Black 24X DVD+R 24X DVD-R SATA Black 24X DVD Writer - Retail 31.99 Is there possibly a cheaper option for this I haven't used my CD drive in years, I don't cd games I play online ones you download that aren't major brands (you pay a subscription though) Antec Three Hundred + BP430 Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case 430W Power Supply 79.95 Also this is there a cheaper option? I know I said I wanted cooling and it looks like a great case but it also looks pretty which means there might be a way to save money with an ugly one? like this one perhaps? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811147112 Also, I thought that drivers are things you can download from the internet so what's the problem? Are there two kinds of drivers?

The driver issue is that XP doesn't natively support AHCI or newer RAID controllers, so when you install the OS, it will require that you load up drivers for AHCI or RAID if you are using that option in order to detect the hard drive(s). In Vista and Windows 7 the drivers can be loaded from a CD or a USB stick, however Windows XP requires that you either load up the drivers from a floppy, or make a slip-streamed XP disc which has the drivers included.

The difference in performance between the two different build is pretty significant in terms of percentage increase in tasks, however for the most part you won't notice the difference and games will run well on either.

Regarding the optical drive, you will need one (most likely anyway) for the OS installation, and perhaps now or down the road you will have games or movies that will be on DVDs. If you don't need to burn DVDs, barch 88 has a good alternative in his post above.

The case I linked to above has an included Power Supply (which costs around $45 by itself), so you get some pretty good savings by getting the Case/Power Supply combo. The case also is pretty easy to use, has good construction and provides good airflow/cooling.

[adaptusaaf]

Is windows 7 superior to XP as far as performance?

I'll go ahead with the case you reccomend masaki I didn't realize the power supply was included (:

I'll also go with barchs suggestion for the drive since it will be easier to buy a good burner later when I have the money to blow.


The difference in performance between the two different build is pretty significant in terms of percentage increase in tasks, however for the most part you won't notice the difference and games will run well on either.

What is percentage increase in tasks mean? If it means you can run multiple programs at once better, I don't need that.

[Masaki 7-11]

Originally Posted by adaptusaaf Is windows 7 superior to XP as far as performance? I'll go ahead with the case you reccomend masaki I didn't realize the power supply was included (: I'll also go with barchs suggestion for the drive since it will be easier to buy a good burner later when I have the money to blow. The difference in performance between the two different build is pretty significant in terms of percentage increase in tasks, however for the most part you won't notice the difference and games will run well on either. What is percentage increase in tasks mean? If it means you can run multiple programs at once better, I don't need that.

You can run multiple programs at the same time pretty well with either processors, however if you do tasks such as video encoding, encryption, unzipping; things that require a lot of time and are dependent on CPU, you will get probably get it done at least 40% faster with the Intel processor. As far as gaming goes, it's mostly dependent on the GPU and if most of the games you are running are online, you should be OK with the HD4670.

Regarding performance in Windows 7 versus XP performance, they will be about equal. In any case it feels a good bit faster than Vista, but there is no real reason to upgrade to Windows 7; pretty much everything that runs on Windows 7 will run on XP.

[glc]

The case in the other thread I linked also comes with a high quality 500 watt power supply. The i5 and i7 processors will also considerably outperform AMD at this point in time. That is why I suggested that build - you have told us that the CPU power is very important for this application you want to run. If you were going to build a budget general purpose machine and Masaki came in and recommended an AMD, I'd quietly leave the thread. In this case, I won't let him push AMD.

[Masaki 7-11]

Originally Posted by glc The case in the other thread I linked also comes with a high quality 500 watt power supply. The i5 and i7 processors will also considerably outperform AMD at this point in time. That is why I suggested that build - you have told us that the CPU power is very important for this application you want to run. If you were going to build a budget general purpose machine and Masaki came in and recommended an AMD, I'd quietly leave the thread. In this case, I won't let him push AMD.

Coming from a Pentium 4, both the Core i5/i7 and Athlon II X4 are a HUGE performance increase. Here is a link to a Maximum PC review on the Athlon II X4 that compares it to the Core 2 Quad Q8200 and Core i5 750: http://www.maximumpc.com/article/fea...ier?page=0%2C0. I'll leave it up to the OP to decide if the extra performance is worth the extra cost.

[adaptusaaf]

"You can run multiple programs at the same time pretty well with either processors, however if you do tasks such as video encoding, encryption, unzipping; things that require a lot of time and are dependent on CPU, you will get probably get it done at least 40% faster with the Intel processor. As far as gaming goes, it's mostly dependent on the GPU and if most of the games you are running are online, you should be OK with the HD4670."

The main tasks I'm concerned with is memory searching other programs, in my opinion its a lot like encrypting and unzipping as far as taxing on the computer system. And it's very time consuming so I think I'm going to have to go with the more expensive option as I want to keep the computer for awhile and as programs get more and more memory intensive I'll want the %40 punch. Should I completely switch over to glc's build though or can I do a hybrid since I think masaki's is cheaper but just use glc's processor? Or are the builds specifically optimal like they are displayed and not to be mixed? Will masaki's parts bottleneck glc's processor?

Thanks a lot guys and masaki I would go with you %100 if I could somehow know that that processor would be fast enough.. Coincidentally I just threw away a 14 month old store bought laptop from Sams club (it was like, 10x faster than this thing lol). It had hard drive failure like physically from melting I think, because I worked it too hard with that memory program. So I lost $1000 there. I dont think Sams club is to blame for cheap laptops though, the thing auto-shutdown from overheating atleast like 5 times a day. I abused it lol. Which is why I dont even want to consider a laptop.

[Masaki 7-11]

Originally Posted by adaptusaaf "You can run multiple programs at the same time pretty well with either processors, however if you do tasks such as video encoding, encryption, unzipping; things that require a lot of time and are dependent on CPU, you will get probably get it done at least 40% faster with the Intel processor. As far as gaming goes, it's mostly dependent on the GPU and if most of the games you are running are online, you should be OK with the HD4670." The main tasks I'm concerned with is memory searching other programs, in my opinion its a lot like encrypting and unzipping as far as taxing on the computer system. And it's very time consuming so I think I'm going to have to go with the more expensive option as I want to keep the computer for awhile and as programs get more and more memory intensive I'll want the %40 punch. Should I completely switch over to glc's build though or can I do a hybrid since I think masaki's is cheaper but just use glc's processor? Or are the builds specifically optimal like they are displayed and not to be mixed? Will masaki's parts bottleneck glc's processor? Thanks a lot guys and masaki I would go with you %100 if I could somehow know that that processor would be fast enough.. Coincidentally I just threw away a 14 month old store bought laptop from Sams club (it was like, 10x faster than this thing lol). It had hard drive failure like physically from melting I think, because I worked it too hard with that memory program. So I lost $1000 there. I dont think Sams club is to blame for cheap laptops though, the thing auto-shutdown from overheating atleast like 5 times a day. I abused it lol. Which is why I dont even want to consider a laptop.

You can certainly do a hybrid of the two computers to bring the price down; especially since your not going to be needing a super fast GPU (unless you can somehow run the program on the GPU; GPUs are faster than CPUs for computing, but the software needs to be made specifically for running on GPUs). Here is a good, inexpensive build using the core i5 processor and motherboard from GLC's post, the optical drive from barch 88's post, 4GB of GSkill RAM (on the QLV) and the other parts from my post:


Antec Three Hundred + BP430 Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case 430W Power Supply
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811129065
$84.95

Western Digital Caviar Black WD7501AALS 750GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136283
$79.99

HIS Hightech H467QT512P Radeon HD 4670 IceQ Turbo 512MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814161252
$64.99

SONY Black SATA DVD-ROM Drive Model DDU1681S-0B
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827118031
$18.99

G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model F3-10666CL8D-4GBHK
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231189
$89.99

ASUS P7P55D LGA 1156 Intel P55 ATX Intel Motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131404
$149.99

Intel Core i5-750 Lynnfield 2.66GHz LGA 1156 95W Quad-Core Processor Model BX80605I5750
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115215
$199.99

Subtotal: $688.89

[glc]

I personally would want something a bit stronger than 430 watts to run a 4670 - but for what you want to do, you don't need a 4670. A 4650 will do the job fine and save you a few bucks.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814161303

I also think you are making way too much out of the cost of a DVD burner. It's less than $15 more than just a rom drive, and this will give you the ability to back up important files.

The lower end P7P55 series boards are now appearing - this may also be a good place for some savings.

[adaptusaaf]

will the 4645 play generic pc games too, like 2009 ones even if its not top quality i dont care but it would be nice knowing that a custom built pc can atleast run games

[Masaki 7-11]

Originally Posted by adaptusaaf will the 4645 play generic pc games too, like 2009 ones even if its not top quality i dont care but it would be nice knowing that a custom built pc can atleast run games

Both the HD4650 and HD4670 will run games (even new ones) pretty well as long as you don't go overboard with the settings. I would personally go with the HD4670 if budget allowed due to the better cooler, higher performance, and better memory, however the HD4650 will also do pretty well.

Regarding power supply, even a 350W can handle a HD4670 with the Core i5 (as long as no overclocking is done), so a 430W will be more than enough. A HD4650 has a slightly lower power consumption than the HD4670.

[glc]

My grandson is playing WoW with a 4650 and it does a very nice job. He has also tried Crysis, and it actually runs with the effects turned down.

Maybe a 350 can run a 4670, but ATI recommends 400 and I like to have a bit of a cushion. My grandson has the 430 earthwatts.

[Masaki 7-11]

Originally Posted by glc My grandson is playing WoW with a 4650 and it does a very nice job. He has also tried Crysis, and it actually runs with the effects turned down. Maybe a 350 can run a 4670, but ATI recommends 400 and I like to have a bit of a cushion. My grandson has the 430 earthwatts.

The recommendations are based on a fully loaded system, usually including a high wattage processor (125 watts or higher) an enthusiast motherboard, two hard drives and two optical drives; the reason for this is so that even if such an occasion happens the card will still work with the PSU. In any case, 430W (the included power supply is an Anteq Basiq based of an FSP design) should be fine for the build and provide some headroom.