Two Micro-ATX builds

[Kidd]

I am retiring a HP dc5100 and an eMachine T3302. Each has had the power supply replaced within the last year, a Dynex 500w and an Antec 380. Both previous motherboards were very snug, and 9 5/8"x9 5/8" is the max size of the mobo.

First, the intent: I'm giving the builds away to friends who are without computers, so I'd like to go very cheap on the builds, with the advice of the gurus here. The computers will be used for photo editing, media viewing, internet surfing, and I'm not sure what else, but not much by way of gaming. I'd like to re-use what I can, and the last time each of these computers were used, the optical drives (all IDE) worked fine. I'd like to re-use the PSU's again, and I have one 80 GB hard drive (SATA), that can stay or leave, depending on what the budget will allow.

Will not need keyboard, mouse or monitor. Will need:

Mobo,2 GB RAM (maybe 4GB), CPU, and I'm assuming the mobo will have onboard video, so no GPU. If an optical drive fails, I can grab one later for cheap, and if there isn't a decent micro ATX board that has IDE, I'll suck it up and by a couple SATA drives. I have no preference between AMD and Intel for these builds. The only CPU preference I have is that they are dual core, but I'm open to suggestion. Will need OS, Win7 Home Premium. Finally, a hard drive.

I don't see how either build would be much different, but if I need to split this into two threads, I will.

First Try:
Mobo, CPU, RAM, $137, still need a Heatsink.
Heatsink, $17
Hard drive, $39
Windows 7 Home Premium x64, $99

$292 + Shipping. x2 computers=$584. I may re-use the 80 GB HD, but I'm not sure yet.

Second Try:
Mobo & Windows 7, $140.
Hard drive, $39
2X1GB RAM, $58.
CPU, $57

$294 + Shipping. x2 computers=$588

Third try:
Mobo & Windows 7, $125.
CPU, $57
2x1GBRAM, $41
Hard drive, $39

$262 + Shipping. x2 computers =$524

I'm liking the price point of option 3, but I also realize the most expensive thing I'm buying is the OS. As an alternate, I was thinking about Linux to save $, but I don't know how to use it, and the people getting these computers are less tech-savvy than I am. Microsoft OS's come with customer support, even if it's in another country. Maybe I'll keep one for a little while to toy with, but I'm not sure.

Thoughts anyone? Also, if there's some way to build this cheaper, any tips would be helpful. (should I skip the dual core? go down to 1GB RAM? Stick to a specific socket type, or memory type?)

[glc]

First off, I'd recommend you buy 2 new cheap cases. Trying to reuse name brand cases with generic motherboards can be very frustrating. You can find them for around $30 shipped.

The Dynex PSU is questionable, but with onboard video it won't be taxed much.

I'm not going to comment on AMD, but if you want an Intel alternative, I'd look at something like an ASUS P5G41T-M LE and an Intel Celeron E3300 Wolfdale 2.5GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor. This will take DDR3 - Crucial 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model CT2KIT12864BA1339.

[Kidd]

Thanks G, your advice is always appreciated (and I know your Intel preference, I think I didn't include an Intel option was because I was searching for the cheapest Mobo, and with various Newegg combos, AMD kept hitting the mark).

Your build:
2x1GB RAM, $58
Mobo, $55
CPU, $52
I am assuming the WD Caviar Blue isn't too bad for $39, plus OS $100, plus $30 case =$334 per computerx2 = $668

I knew when I started this that re-using the cases could be troublesome, but it's one area I can cut cost with no affect on performance. Thanks for the reminder, and although I wanted to build both at the same time, this will be another learning experience, so I'm probably going to skip buying two right now, and just start with one, find the frustrations and problems, and do this again in a month.

Anyone else have suggestions for cheaper alternatives? I may go with GLC's build for reliability, but again, the OS is still going to cost the most. Having never used Linux, is there a distro out there that would be appropriate for the basic user? 100% GUI (after setup), with no reason to use command line? Or is this a bad idea because (I assume) anytime a new monitor, mouse, keyboard, printer is introduced, the drivers are going to be trouble, where as windows is mostly plug and play.

[glc]

You could give Ubuntu a try. If they can't deal with it, you can always install Windows later.

The Blue should get the job done.

[Kidd]

Originally Posted by glc You could give Ubuntu a try. If they can't deal with it, you can always install Windows later.

I also forgot to mention, I live in Arizona, and the builds will be going to Illinois and Florida. I asked them if they knew anyone nearby that was good with computers, and they said no. Any support will be over the phone from me (which is limited), Microsoft, or local PC repair shops.

[glc]

You may want to put XP on them if that's the case.

[Nikon]

Linux mint. aka gloria

best linux out there, fully customizable does everything, and has a nifty feature to automaticly download and install wanted/needed programs. +firefox +free versions of the entire microsoft office suite (filetypes too!)

i use it myself and use it on cheaper computers for friends etc.

[glc]

With the stated support issue, I'd shy away from Linux. If he's gotta support this over the phone for inexperienced users and he has never used Linux himself, this could be opening up a can of worms.

[Kidd]

Originally Posted by glc With the stated support issue, I'd shy away from Linux. If he's gotta support this over the phone for inexperienced users and he has never used Linux himself, this could be opening up a can of worms.

That's pretty much how I feel. I'll never be able to switch to Linux completely, but I think I'm going to use one machine to install Linux to play with it for a week before I give it away. I've waited too long to at least see what it's about. I've installed Win7 and Vista before, but what will this entail when I already have Linux on the computer and then install Win7? Will I have to do anything special before installing Win7? Maybe I'll throw Linux on the old 80GB hard drive, and just do the clean Win7 install on the WD Blue. Will I have to flash BIOS when switching over? (sorry if these are dumb questions, but I really have no clue, since the only BIOS flash I've ever tried didn't work after 10 or more tries)

Also, for the simplicity and reliability of XP I understand the recommendation, but Win7 has been very easy for me to work with. The only problems I've had are finding drivers that work for anything a year older than Win7. Everything else has been a snap, and MS will stop supporting XP before the life of these two computers is up. If I could get it for cheaper than Win7, I'd consider it, but for the same price (or within $10), I like Win7 better.

[glc]

Download a Linux live CD and play with that on any computer. You don't have to install it, you run it directly off the CD.

[Kidd]

One more question, and if you don't comment glc, I understand. The foxconn mobo above says it supports AM3/AM2+/AM2, then lists Phenom, Athlon, PhenomII as CPU type. Since it doesn't list AthlonII, does that mean this board will not support these CPUs? I'm aiming for dual core AMD CPUs, and AthlonII fits the bill for the price, but I'm not sure if they left it out of the specs, or if this just won't work. Should I cough up an extra $30 for this PhenomII with 6MB L3 because it's a better CPU, or should I simply be staying away from foxxconn altogether?

I'm focusing on that board because it is cheap, and I'd also like one of the two mobos to use DDR2/800, after finding 2x1GB sticks in the desk this morning.

[glc]

I'm a bit leery of Foxconn boards, but I believe they DO have CPU compatibility charts on their website.

[Kidd]

Thank you for stating the obvious, I should have checked foxconn first. Their list is the same as what Newegg has listed for compatibility. I'm taking a closer look at ASUS for the DDR2 board.

[glc]

I dont think you looked far enough -

http://www.foxconnsupport.com/cpusup...-K&cputype=AMD

[Kidd]

Hah! thank you very much. No, I didn't look hard enough. I had just put together a slightly different Intel build, too.


Win7 $100
this mobo/cpu combo $115

I haven't had a problem with MSI yet, the reviews show no complaints, DDR2 board, slightly better CPU than the 3300. Ready to go. Reuse RAM and HD already here.

$224 after shipping. I'll take one more look at that foxconn board in the morning and make a decision:

Win7 & Foxconn mobo $125
CPU $57
$192 after shipping.

I'll grab a WB Blue for the next build, and just in case my 80 GB has problems, I'll have it on hand.

Anything else I am missing? After the build, I'll post the results, win or fail, where I saved money by going cheap or re-using, and where I should have spent more to begin with.

[Kidd]

Final Decision:

Mobo & Windows 7, $140.
CPU combo, $57 I combined the CPU with a $10 HDMI cable, and saved $10. Who couldn't use an extra HDMI cable around the house?
Hard drive, $39 (This is for the next build, provided the 80 GB I have on hand works well enough)
$234 with shipping.

Foxconn isn't known for reliability, and I'm re-using other parts. I expect to run into problems, and learn in the process. Although customer reviews are hardly the tell-all of a product's quality, Newegg customers seem to mark a product down for being what was advertised.

Cons: Not the nicest looking board.

Cons: No DVI port, No PCI Express 2.0.

Cons: Only two DIMM slots, supports a max of 4 G RAM, period. One IDE...hope that is enough for you. No DVI port.

Others describe problems with video cards, N/A for this build. I assume that 100% of customers that have to RMA a board right away, or if it completely busts within a year will post a negative review. Only 1 out of 19 did on Newegg, so I'm pushing forward with this one.

[Kidd]

I mistakenly posted a link to the ASUS board, but I did buy the Win7/Foxconn combo for $125. Parts arrived yesterday, I'll get started on the build tonight, and let you know how it goes.

Since I'm going to be buying the next round in the next 2 weeks, I've started researching the next mobo, and I found this combo: ASUS P5G41, E5300

But the board lists 4 slots, 8 GB max for DDR2 or DDR3. What does this mean? would I be able to use a DDR2 stick and a DDR3 stick? could I possibly use 2x1GB DDR2 and 2X1GB DDR3? First time I've really looked at something like this, but I didn't think this was possible, so I'm confused.

I did get excited for a MicroATX board with 4 slots, as I will have to buy the RAM for this one, and 3 or 4 1GB sticks will be fairly inexpensive.

[orbrit]

There are 2 of each type of memory slot - 2 x DDR2 and 2 x DDR3.
They cannot be used at the same time - it's one or the other.

From the manual:

[Kidd]

Thanks, that's what I figured. Still the only board (in my limited experience) I've seen with two types of RAM as options.

For the other computer, I am going to try the Intel / ASUS route, as GLC suggests most of the time. I don't know what the major difference is, but if I build two different systems in two weeks, maybe I'll see what others do.
The mobo Glc suggested looks good, but isn't compatible with the E3300. (one bad review posted a reply from ASUS saying the E3300 isn't compatible, but I'll check the compatibility list to verify what my options are) I'll shop around and see what combos are available.

Thanks again for the help.

Also- what is the time limit on editing a post?

[matt_21484]

If you're still interested, I'd give Linux Mint a try. I've dabbled with both Mint and Ubuntu and I like Mint a little better. More stuff "just works" right out of the box. By that, I mean audio/video codecs, flash plug-ins, etc. To me, they were also easier to get working when needed. Keep in mind, this is stuff you can set up before shipping. One major caveat to Ubuntu, (not sure on Mint) is that bluetooth hardware is very tricky to get working 100% for the average user. The install of either LInux OS is much simpler than XP ever was, probably on a level ground when comparing to Win 7. If these machines are going to be truly internet boxes (facebook, webmail, etc) and some picture viewing from a point and shoot, linux is real easy. If they like doing taxes, (think turbotax, MS Money, or Quicken) on the PC, then forget it and go w/ Win 7. The hardest thing for me to get used to was the file structure. I have always used windows so getting used to the way Linux does things was a challenge. But if whomever is using these just saves everything to the desktop, then it doesn't really matter.

Anyway, that's my $ .02

[Kidd]

Matt-

Thanks for the info, and learning Linux is on my to-do list for the year. For these two machines, I am sticking with Win7 because I will be giving them away. I will probably build another microATX build, as I will have an extra case. A linux machine will be something to tinker with, but is still a few months away. (at least I know there is a strong support community when I do get started )

To all that have helped me thusfar, thank you for your wisdom. Please skip to my question at the end, I want to make sure I'm doing this right.

The long version:
First snag happened over the weekend. When choosing between the two cases, I started with the HP case. It's set up a little better, since I wanted to strip the 80mm fan and find a place for a 120mm fan. No problem.
Then, after I installed the mobo, CPU, heatsink and RAM, I wanted to connect everything.
wait for it....

Surprise! HP uses a proprietary 18 pin front panel connector. Only 6 wires go to the front panel (HD led, PWR led, PWR switch), then there are 3 wires about 2" long that go from one pin to another, leaving 5 pins unused, and one blanked out completely.
After considering switching to the emachine case, I realized there was no 120mm spot, and removing the two LEDs and switch were not difficult. I put them into the HP case, and finished the build.
When I hit the power button, the heatsink fan briefly twitched, then nothing. I unplugged, removed one RAM stick, and checked all connections. Installed the new WD drive. Tried power again, and nothing except the brief twitch from the heatsink.

Here lies the biggest problem with the build: I am using so many used parts, I have no idea what is wrong. Here comes the fun part: troubleshooting. To isolate the problem, I bought a new case, and a new DDR2 stick (that I can hopefully return). I will re-build in the new case (for switch problems) and see how the Antec PSU does. If still no dice, I'll try the Dynex, and keep switching components.

QUESTION: On my Foxconn board, the front panel connector has a 2 pin spot for reset switch, and one pin labeled 'NC'. Is it o.k. to leave these open?

[flanzig1]

NC stands for "not connected" so nothing would go on that pin.
If you are providing first call support, you could open a Logmein account and load Logme in Free onto the PCs and then you will have remote access to the computers from your computer.

[Kidd]

HA! 'NC' means No Common sense sometimes, but thank you for pointing out the obvious. I was initially confident this wasn't a problem, along with not having a reset switch, but I became concerned when I started having problems. Thanks for crossing one off the list.

Originally Posted by flanzig1 If you are providing first call support, you could open a Logmein account and load Logme in Free onto the PCs and then you will have remote access to the computers from your computer.

What a great suggestion. I hadn't considered this, but I will absolutely get this ready before I send it out. This needs a new thread.

[glc]

First snag happened over the weekend. When choosing between the two cases, I started with the HP case.

I told you so!

[Kidd]

Originally Posted by glc I told you so!

Thank you
I could have saved time and hassle, and spent around the same cash for what you suggested on the build for an AMD eMachine $319, free shipping.

That is a refurb, but 750 GB HD, 4 GB DDR2, brand new optical drive, OS, and keyboard, mouse and speakers. What a deal!

But I wouldn't learn anything from that, and that's what I'm aiming for here. I still intend on doing THIS one day.

I still want to learn Linux. I still want to do my first OC. And I'm fascinated by the over-the-top, seldom necessary water cooled rigs. Cool stuff. I'm a big kid, and these are my legos, I just need to learn more. I hope everyone is being patient with me asking for advice and then going against it, but I'm doing so for a reason (sometimes to be cheap, sometimes just to find out what kind of problems I'm going to run into). I'm already annoyed with myself for not confirming the compatibility with that foxconn board. Seriously, my bad, I really should have looked harder. I'll do the research, and when I'm lost, I'm glad someone is usually here to point me in the right direction. Again, thanks G, and as promised, I will post my results, win or fail, for everyone to see.

Also, after I get this going, I still intend on making the next build an ASUS board, Intel CPU, and follow more of your recommendations, taking on less risk of things going wrong. I want to really see if all the hassle was worth it to save a few bucks, or if the extra time spent was worth it just to get another build under my belt.

[Kidd]

So after swapping power switches with no luck, I assumed it was the switch and waited until I had a brand new case to really trouble shoot. (I was sure it was the switch) Then I went back to the basics and it started up. As it turns out, it was the 80 GB HD. When connected, the heatsink and fan will twitch when I press power, then nothing. What I didn't realize a few days ago, is that after I try to start the system with that HD attached, I have to do a hard reset before I'll ever get any response from the board again. Unplug for 30 secs while holding the power button. Had I realized that, I would have isolated the problem without the new case. The reviews were right on with that rosewill case. Lots of sharp edges, very tight space (you must install the optical drive before the PSU), and the optical drive bays suck.

Cons: Boneheaded design of the DVD slots. It's hard to see this from the pictures, but there is a cover on the case that the DVD drive goes behind (non-removable, unfortunately). There is a button that you press that is supposed to press the DVD drive button, and the drive tray will then open the hinged cover and slide out. The problem is that for my drive, the button on my drive doesn't line up with the button on the drive cover--so my drive wouldnt open. I had to rig it up with some glue and cardboard to get it to work. It seems like someone designed this "feature" to make it look slick. On a case this cheap though, I'm not looking for it to be slick, I'm looking for it to just work.

I had to put my drive in an open bay, without the spring loaded hinged door to get in the way. If I keep this case, there are some edges inside the 5.25" bays that I will have to file down slightly to get a drive to fit.

Altogether, I think the rest will go smoothly, but it may have to wait until Monday, as I have to get ready for my son's 3rd Birthday on Sunday.

Any thoughts on that 80 GB HD? It completely locks up everything when it's connected to the board (SATA). I think it's a seagate, came installed in the HP. Is it trash? If I get the system up and running, can I just install it as a second drive and wipe it to get it to work?

[glc]

Trash. You can buy 80gb SATA drives all day for 35 bucks. It's kinda hard to run diags on it when it locks the machine where it won't even POST.

[Kidd]

Originally Posted by glc Trash. You can buy 80gb SATA drives all day for 35 bucks. It's kinda hard to run diags on it when it locks the machine where it won't even POST.

Thanks. Just to make sure it's busted, I may smash it with a hammer first, for the frustration. This build gets more fun by the day!

[nicolaus corelius]

If he's gotta support this over the phone for inexperienced users and he has never used Linux himself, this could be opening up a can of worms.

couldnt be more true. even stallman has to admit that noobs and linux dont mix. no-one (this included most "technically inclined people) is going to compile from source or sit on google for hours to fix his flash playback.

this said, linux is manana from heaven for 1337's around the world.

[Kidd]

Well, I've finished the build, and after getting past the power switch snag and old HD snafu, everything else went very easy. Win 7 load was easy, and I spent some time downloading recommended freeware and configuring it.

The main PITA after loading Win 7 was internet connection. I was using my only monitor, just disconnected from my PC. The PC will be connected via ethernet cable to the modem, so I didn't bother to find any wifi card. My house, however has wifi, as connecting many devices would leave cables everywhere, and to use ethernet cable would require over 50' to make it up the stairs and into the computer room. So why not move the PC closer to the router, and use cable? My monitor is wall mounted, and taking it down would be the very last resort. So I moved my modem/router from the end table, and moved it to the cable connection in the bedroom, in hopes that it would work OK with my TV. It works great. I've been using this PC for the last 2 days as a media PC, and now I am begrudgingly giving it away. With a wireless keyboard and mouse, surfing the net from bed on a big screen is fantastic. Media PC: future build #3.

Also, Logmein works great. I started tinkering with it, and installed open office on the new PC through logmein. I hope I won't need it, but it certainly is the easiest way to get to the PC after it leaves my house.

Anyways, I am trying to figure out the best way to pack it up for fedex this week. I don't have the original box, so I'm looking for a similar size box, and will pack it with all the extra packing I've received in the last couple weeks.

I'll start a new thread with the other build, this one has a lot to dig through.

Thanks everyone for the wisdom!