New small business server- need advice

[Kidd]

My company's server is aging and we're pricing out getting something new, and I was asked if I could save any money by building it. I have limited experience with builds, and have never tackled a server project, so I wanted to ask you guys if it's feasible, or if I'm just asking for problems with my inexperience.

Where my inexperience is a problem, our IT guy can help some, as he is on retainer, but will be charging a separate one-time fee for setup and configuration. I will need to select the parts, though, and I know little about the differences between servers and standard workstations, RAID controllers, etc.

Our current set up: HP Proliant ML350 G4, E7520, single Xeon 3.2 GHz, 2GB RAM, Windows Server 2003. We use a RAID 5 configuration with three 146GB, 10k Ultra320 SCSI hot swap drives.

We will want a big increase in our storage capacity (currently 273 GB), maintain RAID 5, more RAM, and will be upgrading to Windows Server 2008 at the same time. (I'm aware that software costs are going to be the same if I build or if we buy a prebuilt Proliant ML350 G6, which we've gotten a quote for. I want to know if I can save very much on hardware and labor)

1. Are those 10k SCSI drives really necessary for decent speed? We work with 2-4MB AutoCAD and tons of Word and Excel files saved to the server. at any given time, less than 10 people are accessing the server. Would we lose any noticeable speed by using 7200 SATA drives? Is this a bad question, not enough info?

2. Could I use a RAID controller like this LSI MegaRAID Internal Low-Power SATA/SAS 9240-4i 6Gb/s PCI-Express 2.0 RAID Controller Card to accomplish RAID 5 with SATA drives? Am I stupid for thinking this server will perform well with SATA drives?

I'm looking for various components still but finding a pedestal case to fit the needs is daunting. Any opinions about this one?: SUPERMICRO CSE-733TQ-465B

This is a work in progress, and I wouldn't be able to build it for a couple months, but I don't want to go anywhere without some feedback from you guys. Any information would be helpful, and if I'm not giving enough info, please ask.

TIA
Kidd

[glc]

A 3 drive RAID 5 is a train wreck waiting to happen. You need 4 drives.

Get an Intel pedestal server chassis and Intel server motherboard. Kingston is my choice for server memory. I would get an Adaptec 5405 RAID card and 4 WD 500gb RE4's with 64mb cache. SCSI is essentially obsolete.

If you order the drives from Newegg, inspect the packing job carefully - if each one is not individually bubble wrapped, reject the shipment and pitch a bitch.

[Khalil]

Recently for small companies I have been going with Raid 1 and using larger Sized Drives. I built 9 of them last month and saved those businesses who ordered them from me a ton of money!
I use Supermicro, Tyan and Asus server boards.
Raid 5 is proving to be a disaster when failure occurs in one drive, for some reason what we are seeing is that when 1 drive fails in Raid 5 soon after a second drive follows and if not caught in time all data is lost.
In Raid 1 Data need not be rebuilt in case of a single disk failure and I have yet to see both drives go out at the same time in Raid 1.
What glc recommended is perfect but unless you have a lot of people and I mean a lot reading the same files on the array at the same time Raid 5 is not needed.
Building a server is not like building a PC and if you do not have the experience I highly recommend you let a pro build one for you, cutting corners with servers is like playing with fire.

[glc]

I'm still sold on a PROPER Raid 5 setup. With 4 drives, a failure is nowhere near as catastrophic than it is with only 3 drives. You could also get a 5805 and a 5th drive - configuring the 5th drive as a hotspare. This would also allow more drives to be added on the fly if your storage needs increase. The savings going with SATA over SCSI allows you to throw a bunch of drives in there without jacking up the price considerably.

My second choice for server memory is Crucial.

[Khalil]

Originally Posted by glc I'm still sold on a PROPER Raid 5 setup. With 4 drives, a failure is nowhere near as catastrophic than it is with only 3 drives. You could also get a 5805 and a 5th drive - configuring the 5th drive as a hotspare. This would also allow more drives to be added on the fly if your storage needs increase. The savings going with SATA over SCSI allows you to throw a bunch of drives in there without jacking up the price considerably. My second choice for server memory is Crucial.

Yes glc, I totally agree but the problem is Proper, most Raid 5 systems I see out there are not proper and many use the onboard raid controller instead of a dedicated Raid Card.
HP Proliant is definitely NOT the Proper way to go when it comes to servers in my opinion! And it worries when I talk to people who are looking to cut corners or want the cheapest possible, this is why I go with Raid 1 and avoid a cheap Raid 5 setup!

[glc]

I consider an Adaptec hardware RAID controller as being VERY proper. That's all I'll build with.

If I'm going to buy a name brand server, I'd have to go with a Dell. HP/Compaq USED to be good - no more. The best option in my opinion, if you are not going to build it yourself, is get a custom server built by a reputable builder, using Intel parts as I suggested.

[Khalil]

Originally Posted by glc I consider an Adaptec hardware RAID controller as being VERY proper. That's all I'll build with.

And I totally agree with that!

As a custom server builder my warranty is 5 years on the machine. I doubt Dell or HP can even come close to matching my warranty or the quality of hardware I use in my systems.
I am not the only one though, there are several small system builders across the United States who offer exceptional builds and warranty for a lot less than what you would pay for inferior big box name brands.
I would also like to add that I have had great luck through the years with AMD Opterons, Tyan and Supermicro systems.
The new Magny-Cours from AMD are an exceptional Value!

[Kidd]

Thanks for the replies guys, much appreciated. I am still gathering info, and will provide a report to people holding the money, who will ultimately decide which route to go. The largest benefit to me is that the sooner the server is replaced, the sooner I will be able to focus on other responsibilities not associated with "the server is too full", "the backup failed, again", etc. The lower the initial cost, the sooner that can happen. Along with the new server we will be getting away from our aging tape drive backup system, and use a set of external HDs for incremental back ups.

The RAID configuration will be done by our IT guy, and while he didn't have a preference for a particular card manufacturer, he does prefer to use Intel chipsets, thanks for the case recommendation too. I knew I should look for hardware RAID and not to go cheap, but your Adaptec recommendations give me a better picture of the price range I should be looking at. Using 3 drives for RAID 5 is what we have been getting by with, but it's already been discussed that we want 4-5 for the new server.

Also, per Khalil's recommendation, I'll bring up the idea of using a RAID 1 configuration as a money saving alternative. I figured building a server (properly) would have some substantial differences from a regular desktop. Just by searching for parts and posting this thread I've already learned a ton, and I want to learn more. Since the software setup is going to be taken care of by our IT, I'm more confidant I can do it, but I won't commit to this if I think I'm just going to cost my company a bunch of money and headaches . I also figured there was a reason some RAID cards cost under $50, others over $1000. I never had any illusion that I'd be able to build this for $500, but I did figure $15,000 was a bit steep.


More questions-
What is special about the WD RE4s that make them better for this setup? More specifically, why not use a Caviar Black with 64MB cache and a (better) 5 year warranty? Not trying to be cheap, just wondering what the difference is. Better reliability?

I looked at the Adaptec 5405 and 5805, and two results popped up for each. One says 'SGL', one says 'KIT', what's the difference, the cables that are included?

EDIT: Also, I noticed every Intel pedestal server case on newegg comes with a power supply. Are these to be considered junk, as are most PSUs that come with other cases? (I haven't seen either of you recommend using a PSU that came with a case, yet)

[Khalil]

The RE4 drives are true DATA center quality Enterprise hard drives.
The WD Black are suitable for Power computing applications such as multimedia, video and photo editing, and maxed out gaming computers.

You can't go wrong with Raid 1 on a budget, it works and works very well. It will never be as efficient as Raid 5 or 6 but it is better to go with a quality Raid 1 server than to cut corners and build a cheap Raid 5 server.

The one thing I will never cut back on when it comes to servers is the Raid Controller, I only use LSI, Adaptec or Areca, those cards have very high fault tolerance.
The last few servers I built I used this Card Newegg.com - 3ware 9650SE-2LP KIT PCI Express Lanes: 1 SATA II Controller Card - Kit
with this motherboard Newegg.com - SUPERMICRO MBD-H8SGL-F-O Socket G34 AMD SR5650 ATX AMD Opteron 6100 series 8/12-Core ready Server Motherboard and this processor Newegg.com - AMD Opteron 6128 Magny-Cours 2.0GHz 8 x 512KB L2 Cache 12MB L3 Cache Socket G34 115W 8-Core Server Processor OS6128WKT8EGOWOF
not trying to sway you or your IT guy from going with Intel, just sharing with you what works for an exceptional price!!

Intel Pedestal server power supplies are high quality made by Seasonic for Intel.

[glc]

If you get an Adaptec, you definitely want the KIT. It includes the cables, which are not standard SATA cables.

[Kidd]

I never really considered that a single manufacturer would build so many different levels of quality hard drives. WD makes drives at different RPMs, cache, connectors and capacity already, so why so much variation? Anyways, thanks for the explanation. Also, thanks for the AMD suggestion, as I have a slight preference to them, but if it's someone else's money, I'll cater to their wishes (Intel and RAID 5 in this case ).

Thanks glc, I figured a $30 price difference was probably just cables. I looked at adaptec's compatibility list, and it looks like for a larger setup, I could skip the included cables and purchase exactly what's needed, separately. Speaking of that compatibility list, the only RE4's that are listed are the 2 TB models.

Since my unfamiliarity with HDs is rearing it's ugly head, where do I go from here?
Should I go with the 500 GB RE4, even though it's not on the list? (I'd try it for my own build, but rolling the dice on 4-5 HDs with someone else's money isn't something I want to do without knowing it will work)
I'm trying to avoid 10k RPM (VelociRaptor) drives, because I'm under the impression it won't make a performance difference, but will add noise, heat, and price to this server, all unnecessarily.
I'm pretty sure I want to skip 16 or 32 MB cache, and go for 64 MB cache drives. Will this make as much of a difference as I think it will?
I won't need or want 4x 2TB drives in RAID 5, as that's very excessive in the amount of storage we need, and it adds over $1,000 to the price.

Should I stop worrying about the cache size, stop worrying about the compatibility list, find another e-tail store besides newegg, or stray from the long recommended WD hard drives? What's the second best choice, Seagate?

[Kidd]

Ok, I'm ready to give this a shot, hardware only, but will be selecting Windows Server 2008 OEM to go with it:

Case: Intel SC5299DPNA Pedestal, 550W PSU $225
Motherboard: Intel S3420 GPLC $220
CPU: Xeon X3450 $270
RAM: Kingston 2GB DDR3 ECC Registered 3@$69=$207
RAID Controller: Adaptec 5405 KIT $385
RAID HDs: WD RE3 1TB 32MB 4@$130=$520
Server HD: WD Caviar Black 500GB $70
Optical: ASUS DVD-R $20
Hot swap bracket (I saw this as an accessory to the chassis on Intel's site): Hot Swap Bracket Mount Kit $40
Price in cart with shipping : $2024

Please critique, I wasn't sure which way to go with a few items. I went with the 1TB drives because they were on Adaptec's compatibility list, I could have went with the 750 GB RE3 also for $20 cheaper.

[Khalil]

Is any software going to be hosted on the server where the users map to it or is this going to be a file server?
If it is just a file server you do not need a Quad Core processor nor do you need to throw away money at a Xeon, an i3 Newegg.com - Intel Core i3-530 Clarkdale 2.93GHz 4MB L3 Cache LGA 1156 73W Dual-Core Desktop Processor BX80616I3530 would do the job here are the Intel specs on that motherboard showing i3 support http://www.intel.com/p/en_US/support...server/s3420gp

[Kidd]

I don't personally use any of the software that is on the current server, but I believe our accounting software is hosted on the server and used by 2-3 people. I'll ask the question and trim $150 off the cost if I can.

I'm feeling very comfortable with the selection as-is, minus that pricey CPU. Is 6 GB RAM going overboard?

I was originally looking at the 5805 RAID card for an extra hot swap, but when I went with the 1TB drives, I wanted to save a little more on the card, and 4 drives should be more than enough capacity and redundancy.

[Khalil]

Are you going with Server 2008 64 bit? if not then drop your Ram to 4GB and save some money there. The i3 is more than capable of serving 3 people, heck even 6 people without issues. I have old servers in place right now that 12-15 people are on them using accounting and appraisal software that are running on single core Opterons without any performance issues.

[Kidd]

Thanks Khalil and glc. With your help, I've pretty well established that the company can save money by going this route, and really get a server that caters to our company's specific needs, and not just an overpriced box. I'm not sure there is a reason to go with 32 bit Server 2008, but grabbing 4 GB up front, and getting another 2 GB stick later if needed may be the better route. The i3 will be the CPU for sure.

I now have a price attached to the idea, but I'll have to wait until the company is ready to pull the trigger on this before finalizing the build .

Thanks for all the help and education on this.

[glc]

I'd go with the 500gb RE4's. I would also go with 2 small OS drives in RAID 1 on the motherboard controller. The 250gb RE3 is ideal for this. Buy and install ram in pairs.

[Kidd]

Originally Posted by glc I would also go with 2 small OS drives in RAID 1 on the motherboard controller. The 250gb RE3 is ideal for this.

Thanks for that. With onboard RAID, I suppose there isn't a reason NOT to cough up a few extra dollars for another HD and get the redundancy and safety of RAID 1.

Originally Posted by glc I'd go with the 500gb RE4's.

I know that component compatibility isn't exclusive to a manufacturer's list, so again, I wasn't sure about the 500GB RE4s, so thanks for the recommendation.

Originally Posted by glc Buy and install ram in pairs.

This isn't the first time you've told me this. Sorry, I'll try to keep that in mind. For some reason, I want to cut up-front cost in this area, and in the end, it's going to burn me one day. I'll stay away from buying separately as you've adamantly suggested on this forum repeatedly.

And thanks to both of you once again. In BYOPC, the majority ask for your advice (one or the other, depending on CPU), and other people give advice with a disclaimer that glc and Khalil's advice takes precedence, as you two are the 'gurus'. I feel great about giving my company a recommendation based on advice from both of you.