semi-new build for rendering 3D

[leffer]

Hey everyone!
I've been through the stickies and I hope I'm not rehashing old hat here. I'll attempt to make this short.
I am a 3D animator and require some hefty equipment. I'm more of the creative type and less of the techie type, so please bare with me I had a colleague of mine build a machine for me some time back, but now I feel it's out dated. So I went and purchased a new HP pavilion, which does the job, but would like to utilize the goods that my colleague put together for me. The case is awesome, power supply is good, but would like to swap out the old guts for new guts. I would like to get some top notch i7 power in there, and maybe utilize the dual socket mobo, but newer. Here's what's inside now:

case:Armor Thermal take


Asus L1n64-SLI-ws dual socket


2x AMD Athlon 64 FX 72 CPU


Video card:
some crappy Connect 3D card

So, I'm wondering if I can use the tower, power supply, etc. but upgrade all the innards for some top shelf stuff. I'm not familiar with intel vs. AMD, etc. so I'm open to suggestions. I know components need to match up, so I figured one of you lovely members could possibly point me in the right direction. Thanks in advance, Andy

p.s. Oh...and there's about 8 million fans in this machine now, and it's unbelievably loud. So I'd like to consider some quieter options

[David M]

First, we need a budget. In order to know which power supply will work we need to know which graphics card you will be using.

Starting from scratch, expect to spend $1500 or more for a high end computer for running animation/CGI software. People who do this for Pixar use computers that are different from what we generally recommend here. It depends on which software that you will be running that will determine if what we recommend will work for you. You have to check with the company that wrote the software to see what the minimum system requirements are.

You may need a graphics card designed for this software, such as Nvidia Quadro cards...again, check with the company that wrote the software. These cards can get quite expensive...in the thousands of dollars.

There are quiet cases out there without a bunch of unnecessary noisy fans roaring away. Unless you are running two or three graphics cards that do not vent out the back then all those fans are unnecessary. They are just status symbols for the kids.

Before you get yelled at by a mod, you might want to take down the images. It's okay to post a link instead.

[leffer]

Thanks for the reply! I've been operating my 3D company for about 5 yrs now, and freelancing for another 5 on top of that (give or take). I run high end software and I need my machine to keep up. I'm a generalist, so I do everything from modeling, VFX to composting, etc. Here's a list of software I use:
Cinema 4d
After Effects
Realflow
Motionbuilder
Boujou
Photoshop
Premiere
Encore
Zbrush
Endorphin
Mudbox

As for budget, I'm open to the $1500 marker, but of course budget is always a concern. My current vid card is an Nvidia GTS 250. I'm just curious on what components I could purchase to upgrade that machine.

Apologies for images! I'll get the links next time. Cheers!

[glc]

A GTS 250 is a gaming card, not a workstation card. What is the brand and model of your power supply?

[leffer]

There's a Zumax power supply in the machine now, and does the trick pretty well. The GTS is in my current HP machine that I'm using. The card in the machine I want to rebuild is some crap connect 3D card....I think it's a 256 Mb card.

[David M]

What type of graphics card does the software company say it requires? I don't think you want to buy anything before you know this. Knowing the amount of video memory of your present card does not answer the question.

I would get on the phone and ask them what card they recommend. They may have debugged the software using the same card. Ask if that's what they did.

[leffer]

I found this to be useful at 3D fluff, maybe it will shed some light.
Here's the link http://www.3dfluff.com/mash/hardware_iframe.htm

"A lot of people misunderstand the use of a computer's graphics card. Let me start off by saying that with Cinema 4D, the graphics card has zero effect on the final rendering. It will only determine how fast your realtime editor is and what quality you see. Lets start with the Windows side this time. Under windows you will have the best luck with NVidia graphics cards."

[glc]

That would indicate to me that a Quadro workstation card would be the best bet.

I have no info on Zumax - how many watts is it? Do you have a model number?

[leffer]

Unfortunately I don't know what the wattage or model number is. I'll need to boot it up to get the info.

[glc]

No, you have to open the case and read the label on it.

[leffer]

Yes, I've done that no label except zumax tech.

[David M]

There is going to be a model number somewhere on the card. You may have to pull it out of the case to find it. It's on the printed circuit board somewhere. It's usually some very small font.

If not then download Belarc Advisor at belarc.com. It's a free and safe download.

[leffer]

OK, had to pull it out a bit. It's 650W.

[David M]

Cards are not rated for their watts. PSU's are. Is this what you pulled?

Put it back together and load Belarc Advisor or pull your graphics card and look at the fine print for the model number.

We will get your through this.

[leffer]

Oh yes, I'm gettng feedback from all aspects here. yes, it was the psu. the card is a radeon x800 gto 256 Mb. Hope that helps.

[glc]

DAVE!!!

I asked about the PSU, not the video card! We don't CARE about the video card, it's going to be replaced.

[leffer]

Well, there's the info you guys asked for. Thanks for getting back to me

[glc]

As long as it's decent build quality, the PSU can handle anything you want to throw at it.

I'm going to get Khalil to look at this thread - he's the AMD workstation expert. I don't know what you would accomplish by replacing an existing 8 core rig, and an ATI X800 GTO isn't exactly a shabby graphics card. I just don't know if 1500 bucks will get you much improvement over what you already have. Stay tuned, please.

EDIT: Zumax appears to be EPower/Topower and they review quite well. It's a keeper.

[Khalil]

Zumax power supplies are ok they are made by Topower, the 650W is decent size for a dual 125W power hog processors.
I agree with glc for what you plan on doing with this rig an ATI workstation video card would make things run much smoother, the one I had great luck with is Newegg.com - ATI 100-505559 FirePro V3750 256MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 Workstation Graphics Accelerator - Workstation Graphics / Video Cards

[David M]

Originally Posted by glc DAVE!!! I asked about the PSU, not the video card! We don't CARE about the video card, it's going to be replaced.

Replaced with what? I did not see that you or the OP had even figured out yet if the software that he runs requires a regular card or a Quadro or something else. I was trying to help him out in that area.

While you were focused on the PSU, I was focused on the card....that's the misunderstanding.

[glc]

Dave and Khalil:

Originally Posted by leffer I found this to be useful at 3D fluff, maybe it will shed some light. Here's the link http://www.3dfluff.com/mash/hardware_iframe.htm "A lot of people misunderstand the use of a computer's graphics card. Let me start off by saying that with Cinema 4D, the graphics card has zero effect on the final rendering. It will only determine how fast your realtime editor is and what quality you see. Lets start with the Windows side this time. Under windows you will have the best luck with NVidia graphics cards."

Originally Posted by glc That would indicate to me that a Quadro workstation card would be the best bet. I have no info on Zumax - how many watts is it? Do you have a model number?

To the original poster: What do you have for ram and operating system in that thing now? What about hard drives?

[leffer]

You guys rock, thanks for the help on this! Right now, I have 4Gigs of ram (4 slots, but only two used, due to bad ram sticks), but I REALLY need to boost the hell outta this machine so it can handle the openGL, rendering, etc. I really would like to get over the 10gig or higher area of ram. Is my mobo outdated and do I need to update all components, or can I upgrade everything without needing a new mobo? As for the processors, I would love to get the i7 technology or similar into it now. Am I dreaming or can the current Athlon FX processors be swapped out for i7's (or similiar)? Cheers

p.s. I can take a photo and post if need be.

[leffer]

...oh and Window XP....which will be replaced with 7.

[David M]

Be sure to get the 64 bit version of Win7 so you can utilize more than 4 gigs of RAM.

Originally Posted by leffer I would love to get the i7 technology or similar into it now. Am I dreaming or can the current Athlon FX processors be swapped out for i7's (or similiar)? Cheers

Swapping out from one brand to the other on the same motherboard will not work because Intel and AMD CPU's have completely different architectures. Which motherboard you have or choose determines which CPU will work with that board. Which type of RAM that works also varies between motherboards.

[leffer]

I kinda figured that, but wanted to double check. Ultimately, I would love to gut out the mobo, CPU's, vid card, OS and update them all with newer ones. Unless you think the components in there now suit fine. I would like to stay with the dual socket board, unless you think other wise.
I know I could make a killer 3D and rendering machine, but want to really beef up, what I'd call the 'out-dated' technology in there now. I mean, I can only get 4 sticks of ram on the mobo now, when I need to at least get 10gigs or over.
Thank you for all your insight, it's very much appreciated!

[David M]

You can always build a rig from scratch and have everything work together very well. Frankenstein computers with parts from different eras are sometimes not the most optimal thing to have.

For DDR2 or DDR3, dual channel RAM, your best choices are going to be combinations of 4, 8, 12 or 16 gigs. I would start with 8 and then see if more is ever needed. Or better yet, search around the internet for people who are using the same software and ask how much RAM their software is using.

[leffer]

You can always build a rig from scratch and have everything work together very well. Frankenstein computers with parts from different eras are sometimes not the most optimal thing to have.

Well, considering all the back and forth we're doing, that's the point. I'm trying to get some insight on what's the best approach and if folks have some feedback on what components to invest in and beef up my system.

[glc]

If you keep your motherboard, you are stuck with your current processors. I do not think you can replace the motherboard, processors, ram, and video card with any meaningful upgrade for $1500.

I don't have a clue how capable those FX-72's are in comparison to the newest processors, which is why I'm waiting for further comments from Khalil. He's real busy right now so we will have to be patient.

One MAJOR issue I see is your motherboard maxes out at 8gb ram. With that in mind, here's an approximation on what it's going to cost you for a new Intel dual socket mobo and 24gb ram:

Newegg.com - ASUS Z8NA-D6C (MIO) Dual LGA 1366 Intel 5500 ATX Dual Intel Xeon 5500 and 5600 Series w/ MIO Sound card Server/Workstation Motherboard $260

12GB kit (4GBx3), 240-pin DIMM, DDR3 PC3-10600 upgrades for ASUS Z8NA-D6(C) Motherboard, CT1029939 from Crucial.com (2) $720

There's close to $1100 right there before you even think about processors and video card. A good workstation video card will probably be in the $400 range - be it Quadro or Fire.

That board will take quad core and 6 core Xeons. The prices on those range from $250 to over $1000 each.

I'll let Khalil fill you in on the latest AMD technology.

[leffer]

THAT'S what I'm looking for! Thanks a ton for all your efforts at looking into this.