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10-20-2011, 05:50 PM
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#1 |
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Member (5 bit)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 16
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need help building MAME PC
Hi everyone, I'm new to the forums. I came here because I need advice for building my first custom PC. I've done simple things like adding RAM, replacing Power Supplies and Fans, reformatting, etc. but I'm kind of lost as to exactly what I'll need for this.
What I'm building is a dedicated PC to run MAME in a custom arcade cabinet. Hope I don't sound patronizing, many of you probably already know this, but MAME is an emulator for arcade games. With the current builds of MAME, cpu speed is everything for performance. The faster the better. Much is gained from having a dual-core processor, but additional cores grant no significant gains. The graphics card is not as important as in most gaming applications, as there is little high-level emulation to take advantage of it, almost everything is taken care of by the cpu. I'm looking for the "sweet spot" of the pricing curve. You know, medium prices where value is high, before you start to get diminishing returns. Also, I'd like it to be fairly quiet. If I can get total silence at a reasonable price I'll take it, but if not it at least needs to be quieter than my current PC; the power supply and case fans sound like a jet engine. What I already have: Graphics Card: The main concern with the graphics card is not performance, but the ability to output low resolutions. This means compatibility with the programs Soft15kHz and Powerstrip, and the ability to output interlaced resolutions through the VGA port. All you really need to know is that I already bought an MSI NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GS. It's passively cooled, so that helps with the noise, and it will need to connect to a PCI Express x16 port. OS: I want to use Windows XP 64. I'm familiar with XP, and I can get it running pretty lean. What I need: CPU: Right not I'm looking at an AMD Phenom II X2 565 Callisto 3.4GHz. It's the fastest and most expensive AMD dual-core on Newegg, but still affordable at only $110, so I'm really liking it. People are saying that an Intel will perform better, but a comparable one looks to be two or three times that. Any thoughts? Newegg.com - AMD Phenom II X2 565 Callisto 3.4GHz 2 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3 Cache Socket AM3 80W Dual-Core Desktop Processor HDZ565WFGMBOX Motherboard: Based on that CPU, I've been looking at motherboards with an AM3 socket and 2600 MHz Hyper Transfer (what is this? why aren't there any boards to match the 4000 available from the cpu?). When looking at northbridge, will I need the more expensive 890 to take full advantage of the cpu, or is 870 enough, or maybe lower? So far, I like the ASUS M4A87TD, but it has overclock features I'm not going to use. It also has its fair share of negative feedback mixed in with the mostly good. One comment says "memory buy default is at 1333 mhz... not really a con though as it gives u the option to raise it with a +", what the hell does that mean? Newegg.com - ASUS M4A87TD/USB3 AM3 AMD 870 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 AMD Motherboard What's the advantage to the slightly more expensive EVO model? Newegg.com - ASUS M4A87TD EVO AM3 AMD 870 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX AMD Motherboard Memory: There are combos on Newegg for 2 x 4g of Corsair Vengeance DDR1600. Very cheap, and 8g is more than enough for MAME. Should I trust this brand? Looks more popular than "Patriot Gamer." Power Supply: I think this will be a big noise factor. I don't really know how many watts I need etc., till I've picked out a motherboard. Hard Drive: I don't really need more than 100-200 gigs, but will upgrade if value is good. Optical Drive: I probably will just need a CD drive for loading Windows. Case: Eventually, everything will eventually be mounted to a board inside the arcade cabinet (don't worry I'll make sure there's adequate ventilation), but any ideas for a dirt-cheap temporary case to use until then? Well thanks to everyone for looking at this. Anything I'm forgetting, besides mouse, keyboard, and monitor? |
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10-20-2011, 06:08 PM
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#2 |
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Wrench Bender
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Plymouth,MN
Posts: 5,961
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Wouldn't use XP 64bit, it has little driver support for newer parts. Would go with Win 7 64bit.
Corsair is a top brand for ram and PSUs. For HDs, WD Black, 500gig is probably the smallest you can get. Optical drive, a bare DVD RW is only around $25 at Newegg. With the video card you got, a PSU in the 400 to 500watt range will do you.
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10-20-2011, 08:30 PM
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#4 |
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Member (5 bit)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 16
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Hmm... I must have seen something wrong before. Intels are more expensive but not by two or three times, and value is better.
Intel Core i3-2100 vs. AMD Phenom II X2 565 Sourtop, if I'm going Intel, why not use one these? Newegg.com - Intel Core i3-2130 Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz 2 x 256KB L2 Cache 3MB L3 Cache LGA 1155 65W Dual-Core Desktop Processor BX80623I32130 Newegg.com - Intel Core i3-560 Clarkdale 3.33GHz 2 x 256KB L2 Cache 4MB L3 Cache LGA 1156 73W Dual-Core Desktop Processor BX80616I3560 Keeping in mind that I will not be overclocking (not experienced and don't want to decrease lifespan), which one do you think is better? Last edited by rCadeGaming; 10-20-2011 at 08:41 PM. |
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10-20-2011, 09:54 PM
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#5 |
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Moderator
Staff
Premium Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 3,794
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Whatever you get, you must make sure there are drivers for XP 64bit. Lets make sure you are going to use that first.
Here is a fanless, high quality power supply. It is also modular so less of a rats nest inside your custom enclosure, Lord knows you are gonna have enough wiring as it is with the joysticks, buttons, etc. Newegg.com - SeaSonic X series SS-400FL Active PFC F3 400W ATX12V Fanless 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Modular Active PFC Power Supply You are going to want a CRT monitor for your enclosure as well, take a look at this article by our Rich Menga. Search CRT monitor in amazon. Retro Friday: Picking The Right CRT Monitor For A Vintage Gaming Rig | PCMech The CPU and boards you chose are an excellent choice by the way. Is the Intel Sandy Bridge a better CPU? Yes but for what you are using this for, your selections make a great deal of sense. Either board is an excellent choice. Current AMD processors have two external busses. One is used on the communication between the CPU and the memory, and it is simply called “memory bus.” The other is used on the communication between the CPU and all other PC components through the motherboard chipset and is called HyperTransport – an I/O (Input/Output) bus. HyperTransport brings another advantage: it provides separated links for the CPU input and output operations, allowing the CPU to transmit (“write”) and receive (“read”) I/O data at the same time (i.e., in parallel). Everything You Need to Know About the HyperTransport Bus | Hardware Secrets If you find favor with my post, I can spec the rest of it out. I have built three cocktail type mame arcade systems and I used the Tri-Res arcade monitor. http://arcadeshop.com/parts.htm http://www.ultimarc.com/JShopServer/...f4f4ff3e3ddbb9 Last edited by jdeb; 10-20-2011 at 10:14 PM. |
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10-20-2011, 09:55 PM
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#6 |
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Member (8 bit)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Newfoundland
Posts: 245
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Well the first thing is that the i3-2100 and i3-2130 are the new Intel Sandy Bridge processors. The other is old technology that doesn't come close to competing with their new line-up. I'm sure there are benchmarks comparing them somewhere online.
As for why I picked the i3-2100 - purely for the price. The 2130 has a slightly higher clock speed and from what I can tell that seems to be it. I doubt that you'll notice much of a difference with the upgrade. The Sandy Bridge i3's are not unlocked so you don't have much of an option overclocking them anyway. If its not too late you could even return the video card and use the built in GPU on the Sandy Bridge processors. I'm sure that it would be more than enough for your emulator and you wouldn't need to worry about GPU temperatures. |
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10-21-2011, 12:02 AM
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#7 |
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Member (5 bit)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 16
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After some more looking I'll probably go with these:
Intel Core i3-2130 Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz LGA 1155 65W Dual-Core bundled with CORSAIR Vengeance 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 1600 SDRAM Newegg.com - ASRock Z68 PRO3-M LGA 1155 Intel Z68 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard This will probably be faster than I need for MAME right now, but with each new version MAME gets "slower" as emulation becomes more accurate, and more demanding newer games become supported. I think it will be worth the extra $60 over the AMD system, not much in the grand scheme. I'm pretty happy with this conclusion, and I wouldn't have reached it without the help here. Well, the CPU is settled, but is there anything I should be advised of with the motherboard? It's the cheapest one that has an 1155 socket, 4 DDR3 1600 slots, Z86 Northbridge, and good reviews. I like that it has plenty of USB ports if you include the onboard ones, and digital-optical audio-out. Being a Micro-ATX board, it will fit well in the cabinet. This means not too many PCI slots, but I don't think I'll be needing many. With this setup, will I be safe with a power supply under 500 watts? Keep in mind that there will be up to 6 controller encoders all drawing 5v each through USB, and possibly a wireless adapter and sound card. I'll look for drivers tomorrow. I guess I'll step up to Vista or 7 if I absolutely have to. As far as the display goes, I've had a beautiful 20 inch Dell CRT monitor (its basically a Trinitron) for years but I decided not to use it in a cabinet. If you're familiar with arcade monitors, you know that the dot pitch is way too fine, and its not able to display the 15kHz native resolutions of most older games. However, the problem with real arcade monitors is that digital multi-syncs are no longer being made. Even if I found one, it would cost more to buy one than the actual PC. That's why I'm trying to use a Sony WEGA Trinitron KV27-FS120 27 inch television. If you can get it to display games in their native resolutions, you can achieve an arcade monitor quality picture. After all, it basically is a 15kHz monitor. To get these resolutions from the PC the video signal must output from the VGA port, run through a transcoder (combining horizontal and vertical sync to composite sync, and translating colorspace from RGB to component), and finally enter the component input on the TV. The trade-off here is that interlacing is needed for resolutions with over 280 vertical lines, but the same is true for a non-digital tri-mode arcade monitor which is set to 15kHz. As for the special graphics card that is needed, an ArcadeVGA is a user-friendly option, but is ultimately quite limited. An ArcadeVGA is actually based on a Radeon 9200 (older version was 7000) which has been slightly modified to output 15kHz. The problem is that the firmware can't be further modified to add custom resolutions, or even make much adjustment with the ones that are provided as its not compatible with Powerstrip. Using a program called Soft15kHz with a compatible graphics card and Powerstrip gives you a lot more flexibility than an ArcadeVGA at a fraction of the cost. Last edited by rCadeGaming; 10-21-2011 at 12:05 AM. |
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10-21-2011, 07:10 AM
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#8 |
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Member (8 bit)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Newfoundland
Posts: 245
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I would stick to Asus for a motherboard. If you want a cheaper board I would look at Biostar or Gigabyte.
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10-21-2011, 09:21 AM
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#9 |
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Forum Administrator
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Join Date: May 2000
Location: Joplin MO
Posts: 37,771
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400 watts is plenty, it's usually the video card that sucks power, and yours has relatively low power requirements. I'd go with that Seasonic fanless.
I know it's more costly, but I'd recommend this motherboard instead: Newegg.com - ASUS Maximus IV Gene-Z LGA 1155 Intel Z68 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard Asrock may review well, but they are not noted for reliability! XP 64 drivers *ARE* available for this board. Last edited by glc; 10-21-2011 at 09:23 AM. |
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10-21-2011, 10:05 AM
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#10 |
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Mondsreitersmann
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Skingrad
Posts: 8,781
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Which MAME are you gonna run? I've had issues with my emulators and Windows 7.
__________________
Darum still, füg' ich mich, wie Gott es will. Nun, so will ich wacker streiten, und sollt' ich den Tod erleiden, stirbt ein braver Reitersmann. |
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10-21-2011, 10:36 AM
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#11 |
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Member (5 bit)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 16
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glc, I had actually looked at that mobo already, its pretty light on PCIe slots. Is there something about it that will unlock the full potential of the processor? Keep in mind that I will not be overclocking. What advantages does it offer? Not that I'm counting it out, but otherwise it's down to these three:
Newegg.com - ASUS P8Z68-V LE LGA 1155 Intel Z68 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard with UEFI BIOS Newegg.com - GIGABYTE GA-Z68MA-D2H-B3 LGA 1155 Intel Z68 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard Newegg.com - GIGABYTE GA-Z68M-D2H LGA 1155 Intel Z68 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX Intel Motherboard After your advice, I looked into ASRock. Apparently they're owned by ASUS, but I don't think the mobos are actually produced by them; and as you guys have warned, they're not known for quality. It's not that I want a cheaper board just to save money, I just don't want to spend extra on overclocking capability or other features I won't use. Regardless, I'll stay away from ASRock. Between the first and second option above (first is the one recommended by you, Sourtop), the only difference I can see for the bigger, more expensive ASUS is more PCI slots. Again, is there something about it that will unlock the full potential of the processor, or some other advantage, keeping in mind that I will not be overclocking? If I was to go with one of the Gigabyte boards, I think the only difference between those two is that the first one has USB 3.0. What will I need this for? Is it worth the extra $20? Nuclear, right now I'm using MAMEUI132 (will need to make that MAMEUI64), but I have the rom updates to get up to 143 when if I want to. I compile starting with vanilla MAMEUI, adding hiscore.diff, and making a few changes to the source code to eliminate/modify the save state messages. I'm running XP non-64 right now so I don't know how it will react with Vista/7, but I'm resisting changing OS if at all possible (except to XP64 obviously). Last edited by rCadeGaming; 10-21-2011 at 11:09 AM. |
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10-21-2011, 10:46 AM
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#12 |
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Forum Administrator
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Join Date: May 2000
Location: Joplin MO
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The reason I recommended the Gene board is it's micro-ATX, and the less expensive micro-ATX Asus Z68 has some pretty mixed reviews. If you will accept a standard ATX, the LE board is a good board.
Really, the only differences between all the Asus Z68 boards are features. There shouldn't be any performance differences. |
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10-21-2011, 11:27 AM
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#13 |
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Member (5 bit)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 16
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Yeah, if needed I'll go with the standard-ATX Asus LE, but what do you guys think of those Gigabyte boards?
As for the power supply I don't know if I want to go fanless. This system is essentially going to be mounted in a small wooden box once it goes into the cabinet, so I think I'm going to need some case fans pumping air out the back anyway. |
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10-21-2011, 12:03 PM
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#14 |
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Forum Administrator
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Join Date: May 2000
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I have mixed feelings on Gigabyte boards.
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10-21-2011, 04:58 PM
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#15 |
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Member (5 bit)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 16
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Ok, many updates.
I've decided to bite bullet and go with an nLited Windows 7 x64, instead of XP. Looks like there was a major rewrite to a few things in MAME around version 136, and 7 x64 is supposed to be the fastest system to run it. This, combined with the problems of newer parts supporting XP and having to buy a floppy drive just to install, have forced my hand. Newegg.com - Scythe SY1225SL12L 120mm "Slipstream" Case Fan These fans look like the answer to my cooling concerns. 40 CFM at only 10.7 dBA. Would about four of these on the back of the cabinet be adequate? I could also stick with the fanless power supply, and put one of these behind it to move a little air. Newegg.com - Seasonic SS-460FL Active PFC F3, 460W Fanless ATX12V Fanless 80Plus Gold Certified, Modular Power Supply Same PSU as recommended earlier, but with an extra 60W for $15 more. Is the extra buffer worth the change, or is 400W overkill already? How many watts do you guys really think I'll use? Newegg.com - Seagate Barracuda ST31000524AS 1TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive Newegg.com - ASUS 24X DVD Burner - Bulk 24X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 12X DVD+R DL 24X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-R 32X CD-RW 48X CD-ROM Black SATA Model DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS - CD / DVD Burners Still haven't made up my mind on the motherboard. glc, can you be more specific? Sourtop? jdeb? |
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10-21-2011, 06:47 PM
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#16 |
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Techphile.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Francisco Bay
Posts: 5,959
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A PSU with a 140mm fan that is not being pushed to anywhere near its maximum power output is also going to be very quiet. The better PSU's step their fan speeds according to power output. You won't hear a PSU like this unless you put your ear up to it.
Hard drives also make noise. I would suggest a WD Green. You don't need super high read/write times or a 6GB/sec pipeline for what you are using your computer for. Quieter drives also create less heat which means you can run your case fans at an even lower speed. Speaking of case fan speeds, you will want a controller for this so they are not running 100% all the time. With a controller you will be able to create a balance between noise and your cases internal temperature. Make sure whichever CPU cooler you get has a 120mm or larger fan and 4 pin motherboard connector so you get better control over its speed and subsequent noise level. There is also acoustic absorption and isolation material you can buy that could go inside of your arcade cabinet. That sounds like a fun project. 
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Asus P8P67 WS Revolution | Intel 2600K @ 4.7 GHz | Win 7 Pro 64 |8 gigs Corsair 1600 | Two Diamond 6990's in Crossfire| Corsair AX1200 | Thermalright Silver Arrow | Western Digital Black 2TB 64 meg cache | Lian-Li PC-A71B | Logitec Z-5500 | Three Asus 26" VW266H monitors running under Eyefinity | Last edited by David M; 10-21-2011 at 07:17 PM. |
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10-21-2011, 08:02 PM
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#17 |
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Forum Administrator
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I don't trust the reliability of Seagate drives - what you need is a WD AV-GP drive. They are very quiet and cool running, and designed for HTPC's that run 24/7.
Newegg.com - Western Digital AV-GP WD5000AVDS 500GB 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal AV Hard Drive -Bare Drive I REALLY like those Seasonic fanless PSU's. With that said, all a system with a 7300GS needs is a 350 watt unit with at least 20 amps on the +12v rail or rails. The SS-400FL has 33 amps, so it's more than what you need. There's a rebate on the 400 so the end cost is more than a $15 savings. Motherboard? Honestly, I'd go with the Gene board to get the X-Fi onboard audio if sound is important in this machine you are building. |
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10-21-2011, 10:43 PM
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#18 |
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Member (5 bit)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 16
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When you're managing a large rom set, you do need fast read and write speed. When I do a view refresh for available roms in MAMEUI, it has to scan and verify a 50 gig rom set. This takes about 5 minutes on my current PC. When actually playing, games with very large roms/chds can currently take 15 to 30 seconds to load, so I would definitely like that to be faster. I also picked the Seagate because it has tons of reviews saying that it's pretty quiet as well. I can't find any many reviews of the WD AV, so I'll try the Seagate. I have a Seagate HDD that's about 6 or 7 years old and has stood up well to heavy use.
glc, I looked up the "SupremeFX X-Fi 2" onboard sound, and its really just a Realtek chipset using SoundBlaster emulation. When I start evaluating sound, I'll probably get a dedicated PCIe card. That board is out. Can you be more specific about your mixed feelings about the Gigabyte boards? Do you guys think I'll need an aftermarket CPU cooler? Again, I won't be overclocking. |
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10-22-2011, 12:03 AM
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#19 |
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Forum Administrator
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Premium Member
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Joplin MO
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Again, don't buy the Seagate. If you have to have a fast drive, get a SSD. Those are totally silent.
Newegg.com - Intel 510 Series (Elm Crest) SSDSC2MH120A2K5 2.5" 120GB SATA III MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) Newegg.com - Intel 510 Series (Elm Crest) SSDSC2MH250A2K5 2.5" 250GB SATA III MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) If not, at least get a WD Black. Amazon.com: Western Digital Caviar Black 750 GB SATA III 7200 RPM 64 MB Bulk/OEM Internal Desktop Hard Drive - WD7502AAEX: Electronics I just don't feel that Gigabyte boards have the same quality and reliability as Asus. |
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10-22-2011, 10:49 AM
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#20 |
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Member (8 bit)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Newfoundland
Posts: 245
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Also, for case fans the bigger the better. Larger fans make less noise as they require fewer cycles to push or pull a given volume of air in or out of your system. I know the Coolermaster high air flow 200 mm fans are dead silent.
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10-22-2011, 11:07 AM
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#21 |
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Techphile.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Francisco Bay
Posts: 5,959
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I dunno...the WD Blacks that I have make quite a bit of noise. The 2TB WD AV I have makes virtually no noise.
Last edited by David M; 10-22-2011 at 11:11 AM. |
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10-22-2011, 11:11 AM
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#22 |
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Forum Administrator
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I have that exact Black drive as my primary drive in this box, and I can't hear it.
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10-22-2011, 11:51 AM
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#23 |
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Member (5 bit)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 16
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Ok, I'll reconsider the HDD again. What do you guys think about the power supply (question in post #15)?
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10-22-2011, 01:08 PM
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#24 |
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Forum Administrator
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Answer in post #17.
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10-22-2011, 02:24 PM
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#25 | |
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Member (5 bit)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 16
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Quote:
How about getting an aftermarket CPU cooler and putting one of the silent fans I posted? Sourtop, 200mm is probably too wide for the width of the space it will be mounted in, but I'll look at going bigger than 120. |
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10-22-2011, 03:27 PM
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#26 |
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Forum Administrator
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I don't know if any aftermarket CPU coolers are any quieter than the OEM one. They may also have clearance issues with the heatsinks on that ram. For COOLING purposes, the OEM cooler is more than adequate.
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10-26-2011, 11:19 AM
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#27 |
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Member (5 bit)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 16
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Quick update: Thanks, to everyone for helping me figure out this build. Money is tight at the moment, and I'm busy with other work, but the plan is to actually have this PC running by Christmas. I'll let you guys know if the build is successful, and how well it fulfills its purpose powering the MAME cabinet soon, and I might have some more questions putting the PC together. Thanks!
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05-26-2012, 11:11 AM
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#28 |
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Member (5 bit)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 16
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Thread resurrection!
Last week, I finally got the funds and motivation together and built a PC based on the discussion here. Thanks again for the advice. It's working pretty well, but I do have one question about it: Can I use onboard graphics while other graphics card is plugged in? |
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05-26-2012, 11:52 AM
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#29 |
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Forum Administrator
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Thread closed.
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