In need of some Help plz

[lynisha]

Ok bear with me becuase this is a bit of mess. /sigh where to start...

I will try to give as much info as I can while still remaining relatively brief.

The PC in question was:

Homebuilt (by me)
Intel P4 2.4Ghz
Abit BE7 (raid) motherboard
512mb pc2100 ddr
GeForce4 128mb 8x AGP graphic
Soudblaster Audigy
2 60gb IBM hdd (raid striped)
all in a generic case with 400w Haikong power supply

All was well and good, have had the PC for almost 2yrs so its not super new but it was working perfectly untill one day I went to turn it on (after it had previously had a perfectly normal shutdown) and All that would happen was it would power up, lights on the mobo come on, HDD spin up, fans spinning but nothing else! No POST beeps of any kind, nothing. Just sitting and spinning as it were. heehee

So in a hasty assesment of the situation I just assumed my mobo had died since power seemed good but there was no POST. I ran out and bought a Shuttle AS45GTR plugged it in and expected all to be well. Now things get even better becuase what I got was this, the lights on the mobo are on and power looks good but when I push the ON button it gets a little surge of power (like just enuf to spin the CPU fan one turn) then it stops and sits there in silence. (still no POST)

Again I assess the situation and make another assumption, hmm, it looks like a power problem cuz it cant even spin up the fans. So I run out and get a new case equiped with a generic 500w power supply (label reads: SWITCHING POWER SUPPLY Model: ATX-500w P4) I plug all in with the new mobo and the old componants and the SAME thing happens, lights are on but when power applied just a small surge that spins the fan once and then it sits there like a dud.

Now Im just confused and lost. I plug it into every outlet in my house thinking it may be something electrical. But then realize that is dumb because Im sitting here on my other computer in the same room typing this right now.

So I strip the PC down to bare bones, one stick of ram, CPU, graphics card and plug it in. Same response, small power surge that gives the CPU fan a little spin then dud time.

I start to read on the internet for similar problems and discovered a post on someone who had a graphics card die and that led to the computer just sitting there spinning and no POST. So what the heck, I got a new graphics card (GeForce FX5700 256mb) plugged it into the barbones system. Same thing little power surge then dud. So I took that setup and put it in the OLD case and again the same!! This time not even sitting and spinning but just that same little surge and then dud.

So basically I have bought like half a new system to fix some unknown problem only to be left with a room full of parts and the problem even worse now than when I started!

I beg of ANYONE that can give my ANY ideas what to do next to please help. Just reading this I cant believe how stupid it sounds but Im totally at my wits end!

Lyni

[Web Gecko]

Hey there Lynisha

Can understand the frustration. I have worked on\built a lot of systems
and the curve balls (you don't see coming) keep coming.
I have a different kind of power on problem on this forum
(don't think it would be related but you never know).
You haven't done anything dumb that I can see.

Your purchases will give you some backup parts BUT I would
try to get an answer on why you have problems with one set
before you go get more. There is enough to confuse anyone
there with one set of parts.

I have seen the problem you describe on more than one system.
THe cause can be VERY simple and can also be a little more
subtle\complicated. Like if your power switch has a physical
problem ( sticks [plastic drag or misaligned] or say if
the switch gets stuck ON) and you have 4 second delay
to power off set in the BIOS settings then you switch on
and as the switch kind of "sticks" or holds in
then a few seconds later the power supply shuts down.
The power switch is a simple momentary contact type
usually and the plastic part which pushes the switch on
can be broken or just not fit right or the push switch
itself may be damaged in some way ( shorted closed say).
People in the PC shop may be able to help there.

That's on the simple side. The other side is that
with a Windows system even though you shut down
successfully this doesn't guarantee that your
binary OS\apps image on your hard drives have not
changed or been corrupted by any number of
things happening. RAID cannot guarantee this will not
happen. You are using stripe mode and I will leave it to
others to comment on specifics of this RAID mode.
Mirror mode as you can imagine mirrors every write
to one drive to the other as well. This says to
me that corruption on one drive may then be
written to the other drive as well
(others will let me know if they think this idea holds).

Anyway, from boot up to power down etc etc
session to session windows settings\data and
BIOS data can change. Interrupt settings
can also change without which things will fail
to work right. I built a new system with an
MSI K7T Turbo (AMD based system), Win 981E
and a 20GB 7200rpm WD HDD.
The system didn't like the interrupt assignments
relating to the video card so powered up,
set the mobo status LEDs and then halted,
essentially a power down
(on for short duration).

How did I solve that ?
I checked my mobo manual and the status
indicated a video card startup\interrupt problem.
I tried another PCI slot for my SVGA card.
Next power on was a success.
This time the card was allocated an interrupt and the
system could proceed to POST as it had
an active video device to work with.

Try checking any documentation that came with your AGP card
rekating to interrupt setup.
Go into your BIOS\setup and check any settings relating
to AGP setup and\or interrupt assignments.
Maybe you have a similar problem
(your card may not be getting an interrupt so can't
be started). Try a cheap PCI SVGA card to get the
system going. Add AGP after it's working.

Also with any similar problems take your mobo back to the store and let
their techs diagnose it. You have warranty so let them earn your
business. Computers can drive the best of us crazeee sometimes
( they have made no tangible contribution to my sanity level over the years).
If you have no joy, switch off, leave the room (take deep breaths)
make some java and put on a good DVD (or maybe take nice long walk).

A solution will come your way. Time, patience and perseverance
usually win out.

Hope something here helps.

cheers

Web Gecko

[HyperTF]

Although Web Gecko gave a pretty comprehensive reply, I will put my 2 cents worth in just on the off chance! I think it is interesting that you don't even get the POST, and get no error beeps, at least then you could locate the problem... all I can think of is going back to some of the basics...

Is the motherboard grounded with at least 3 screws to the case? (not all plastic clips)

Are all those little annoying power/led jumper connectors in their correct positions on the mobo? (one of those suckers out of place can leave the PC useless!)

even though you have tried different power out lets in your house are you going through a power board with surge arrestor or plugged straight in? if you are going through a surge arrestor, make sure it has not been tripped, needing resetting.

Check that AGP card doesn't have a secondary clip to fasten the board in place as well as the case slot.

Try another RAM card (you probably have already)

will try to think of more but I am going to bed now... it is 3:20am here... getting bags on bags under my eyes!

Good luck... hope you find the solution and save your sanity!

[Web Gecko]

Hey HyperTF

That's good advice you gave. Worth more than 2 cents.

I only thought about maybe bad ddr after and possibly one or more sticks
aren't seated right ???

Some of the new mobos are using dual channel ddr (not sure if Lynishas
shuttle is using dual channel ddr ???) so you may have to install a minimum of two matched sticks or ddr to start with (maybe dual channel can be disabled\enabled in BIOS ???).

Yeah , check your mobo manual and cross check any jumpers and where they are set ( important ).

Have always wondered about post grounding on a mobo HyperTF ???
How come the mobo kits come with those washers ? I thought that was
to make sure the mobo was isolated from the chassis (static hitting the chassis could hit the mobo\cmos chips ???). I have tried using them but they are a hassle generally (probably just for protection under the screw ?).

Not really sure about grounding (have to find out) but what you said makes
a lot of sense.

Loss of sleep, sanity and baggy eyes. Now there's some things I know
a lot about (yawn). Sack time.

cheers

Web Gecko

[lynisha]

ooh! some very very interesting ideas there my friends. Worthy of note are the following:

1) as fare as little jumper wires I have only been plugging in PowerSW, PowerLED, Speaker, and HDD LED. So perhaps I should plug in the remainder of them and Im not sure I have the pos/neg oriented the correct way. I have the writing on the cable terminal facing towards the writing on the board but maybe that is backwards?

2) It is DDR memory and I have been doing all tests with only one stick in so perhaps I need an actual pair?

3) Bothe video cards are AGP so perhaps a PCI card might render something new.

4) The system does not POST at all in any configuration I have tried so far since the first problem.

5) Total parts in my possesion to use as testors are 2 cases w/power supplies, 2 AGP graphics cards, 3 sticks of DDR mem, 4 hdd, 2 P4 motherboards, 1 p4 processor.

Ok friends Lyni is off to give some serious effort to the input recieved thus far and I will update you on my findings. Thank you again for the help!

Lyni

PS
On the topic of grounding, I have been conducting the tests with the mobo OUT of the case laying on the static proof bag it arrived in. Could this be a contributing factor?

[Cricket]

lynisha: Did you remove the motherboard from the case while troubleshooting? If not, try it and let us know what happens.

Also, you may want to try different RAM if you have any spares available.

And you might want to get a good quality power supply instead of using a generic one. Get a name brand one with at least 350 watts. Antec, Enermax, Enlight, Fortron Source, HEC, PC Power & Cooling, Sparkle Power, Thermaltake or Verax are all good brands to look for.

Cricket

[Cricket]

Originally Posted by lynisha PS On the topic of grounding, I have been conducting the tests with the mobo OUT of the case laying on the static proof bag it arrived in. Could this be a contributing factor?

No, don't lay the motherboard on the antistatic bag...the out side is conductive and will short out the motherboard. Lay the motherboard on some cardboard or wood.

Cricket

[lynisha]

ah very intriguing Cricket. Since I did test them both outside on the bag is it possible that I killed both Motherboards? =(

Lyni

[Cricket]

No, the motherboards should be fine...all that happened was the motherboards were grounded to the bags and that kept them from booting up.

I would try another power supply from the list I provided. Generic power supplies can be the cause of lots of problems.

Cricket

[piasabird]

This is a typical condition you might see if it was a power supply issue. Power supply problems can be hard to spot. If just the 5v or 3.3v goes out the fans might still spin or all the drive lights might come on. If you have an old 300w power supply you could test it outside of the case.

[lynisha]

sadness. I have tried with the mobo firmly grounded in the case with all leads attached, with 2 sticks of DDR but still the same result. Push the power button, the fan jumps a turn or two then silence.

The case I just bought is brand new with a 500w power supply what could be the odds that it was a power supply problem and then I bought a new case with a bad power supply in it? This would seem to stretch the reaches of probability but stranger things have happend.

So far the symptom remains the same in all confirgurations. Power is applied, the fan indicates a slight surge in power and then all is quite. =(

I would love to hear from somone who has had these exact indications every before?

Lyni

[Yuanji]

bad PSUs, no matter how big will blow out if its from a bad company. good companies are antec, sparkle, enlight, and thermaltake.

[Cricket]

What brand is the new power supply?

Did you remember to plug in the extra 4 pin 12v power connector?

Cricket

[HyperTF]

How good are you with a voltage multimeter? it could put some of these PSU unit concerns to rest. If you don't have one maybe a friend has.

Oh and a motherboard MUST be grounded using screws (at least 3 on the risers moulded in the casing, this will ensure the motherboard is grounded by the PSU.

The only other things I can really think of are that maybe there is some compatibility problem between CPU and Motherboard or any of its other major components, or RAM speed is not matching, but most of these would give you beeps I would have thought when you power up.

I have quickly found this site for specs, but maybe a bit of research on your motherboard might uncover the culprit... if this is even your mobo!

Review:
http://www.pchardware.ro/Reviews/review.php?id=180
Specs:
http://www.pchardware.ro/Reviews/review.php?id=180&p=2

[Cricket]

Originally Posted by HyperTF Oh and a motherboard MUST be grounded using screws (at least 3 on the risers moulded in the casing, this will ensure the motherboard is grounded by the PSU.

That's not true. The motherboard is grounded through the PSU via the motherboard power connection and the wall outlet. The standoffs only hold the motherboard above the mounting tray. You can run a computer outside a case perfectly fine while the motherboard is just sitting on a cardboard box...I've done this many times.

Cricket

[Yuanji]

sometimes, you need all of the standoffs in their proper place to run the motherboard. i couldn't get mine to boot till i screwed in the last standoff in the middle (didnt see it at firsT)

[HyperTF]

Originally Posted by Cricket That's not true. The motherboard is grounded through the PSU via the motherboard power connection and the wall outlet. The standoffs only hold the motherboard above the mounting tray. You can run a computer outside a case perfectly fine while the motherboard is just sitting on a cardboard box...I've done this many times. Cricket

He he, I am not saying it wont work, just that if you want to ensure a proper grounding of the mobo 'it is in your best interests' to ground it to the case. Just trying to give sound advice... take it or leave it

[Cricket]

The metal rings around the motherboard mounting holes aren't there for grounding purposes. They're only there to protect the PCB from getting damaged by the screw heads. The metal rings aren't connected to anything, so all the metal standoffs and screws are doing is holding down the motherboard securely in the case...they don't help to ground the motherboard at all.

Cricket

[HyperTF]

Originally Posted by Cricket The metal rings around the motherboard mounting holes aren't there for grounding purposes. They're only there to protect the PCB from getting damaged by the screw heads. The metal rings aren't connected to anything, so all the metal standoffs and screws are doing is holding down the motherboard securely in the case...they don't help to ground the motherboard at all. Cricket

hrmm, we might have to agree to disagree, yes the metal rings do provide some protection for the fastening of the mobo, but I am also sure they ensure grounding through the case.
If you are so sure, my A Plus Hardware training has indeed mislead me!

[Panama Red]

I'm with Cricket on this one. I've run too many systems without a case, parts laying on the table, to think that the case provides any grounding at all. Some systems even use plastic standoffs and non-conductive fasteners to secure the mobo to the case. There can't be any grounding effect in that configuration.

Looking over the parts swapping that's been tried, I'd rule out an attempt with a PCI video card. Two mobo's and two AGP cards can't be the problem. I'm leaning toward the Power Supplies too, but it seems unlikely that two would exhibit the same syptoms. If you've tried other memory modules and hard drives, that only leaves two components used in every attempt (maybe). The cpu and possibly the power cord. If you've used the same power cord on both cases, try the new one that came with the new case. If that's not it, I'd try that cpu in another system without any of the parts from the current system.

[HyperTF]

Just repeating and clarifying... I didn't say the mobo would not work outside of the case. In some instances it is important to mount the motherboard with screws (at least 3) cos in some cases it may not work without em! sure it can go the other way, if the screws are too large or there are no risers in place you can risk grounding your motherboard in the wrong place if you are not careful.
With respect, I don't believe I am talking out of my arse, and I am not saying you are wrong, but you don't need to assume I am wrong.

[lynisha]

Hmm some interest debates on grounding here. I wish I could say anything positive either way but Im pretty much a novice. This is what I do know,

1) I have tried both the mobos in both the cases both inside and outside and the same result always.


2) I have used 2 seperat power cords in just about every outlet in my house lol.

3) The common componants to all configuration are the same CPU and RAM the rest is unique.

This is so very perplexing. It is perplexing how the puter stoped working to begin with. There was no hard shutdown or power spikes (not that it would matter becuase it was plugged into a UPS) It just stopped working. And now both configurations have identical symptoms in all configurations.

This is almost pointing to the only two common componants, the CPU or the RAM but it has always been my understanding that the board would still POST but with error beeps? Or is that wrong? Perplexed.

Lyni

[Panama Red]

Sometimes with memory failure you'll get no beeps or other indication of trouble. Try testing your memory with Memtest86+. Download it and make a boot floppy, then make sure your bios boot order has the floppy before the hard drive, insert the boot disk and let it run a couple full passes. See if it reports any memory errors. At least you'll eliminate one more component.

http://www.memtest.org/

[HyperTF]

That link didn't work for me Panama

Lyni, don't forget when handling memory sticks... (well I should say anything in your PC for that matter) that you are at least wearing a anti-static wrist strap or touching the case or something so you don't send an unhealthy 30,000 volts of memory frying static through them!

Can you resort to 'phone a friend'?

[Panama Red]

Sorry 'bout dat! Link is fixed now.

[lynisha]

heehee! Panama I would love to use that program to test my memory but the computer wont boot up and this one that Im typing on right now uses SDRAM not DDR. =(

Lyni

[Web Gecko]

Hey again Lynisha

Looks like plenty of good advice above. The grounding issue can be confusing
at best. I think the main grounding for the mobo is supplied via the ATX ps connector to the supply and onto earth via the wall outlet (via any intervening equipment). Grounding to the chassis via the mobo standoff posts could only be achieved IF each screw\mounting point is also a ground land on the mobo pcb ( ground to chassis screw to land to metal post to chassis contact [assuming chassis is grounded - in some cases this may indeed be a [dangerous ???] assumption ?]).

If the chassis is grounded then this is why you can discharge any static charge on your body by touching case metal BEFORE you handle anything sensitive like the chips\pcb traces on the mobo, PCI and AGP cards and
the controller cards on drives ( cmos chips can be gutted by static discharge). Handle cards\mobos by card edge in general.
Hence my confusion over insulating washers provided with many mobo
screw\post kits. I think these washers and the round lands around mobo screw points are mosy likely to protect the mobo from the screw at top and
underneath from the standoff post ( pressure\friction exerted by screw and mobo at each point [mobo being the meat in the sandwich so to speak]).

I HAVE observed exactly the symptoms you describe Lynisha with a
MSI K7T Turbo mobo and AMD Duron 800 CPU ( had 128MB SDRAM )
( don't mean I have all the answers or your exact solution though !!???).
All I have is ideas like the other folks here. The MSI mobo had status LEDs
which helped a lot to diagnose a problem when the system wouldn't start.
In my case a SVGA PCI card wasn't being assigned an interrupt number so the system could not start it and had NO usable video device.

The fact there are NO beeps at all means we are not sure if the CPU and BIOS is being run at all !!!???? Do you see any LEDs on your floppy drive or anything else ? Can anyone also tell us whether memory is tested BEFORE the video device is started ? What I am getting at is much of your POST process needs a video display (using a basic text mode driver\display)
i.e. BIOS, video BIOS signon memory count\check etc etc etc..

1. Read your mobo manual carefully and make sure any jumpers are set
right. Also check out your Power management, standby and wake on
function settings in the BIOS as something here could be stopping
your system coming up normally. You are paying good money for
new componentry so make sure you get some service\tech support from
your supplier.

2. Debugging a mobo config outside the case is a good idea
( you have heaps of room\good access for a start ) if you are
carefull. You can run a mob on a good insulating surface
BUT make sure there is some airflow under the mobo as
your mobo chips etc draw planty of power and get quite hot
( the standoff posts serve three functions, keep the mobo
shorting with case, provide some airflow underneath
and possibly grounding ).
I am not a trained electronics technician. My preference
would be to keep stray charge away from mobo power rails as well
as other signal lines. Static to positive power rail can be fatal
for cmos chips. To negative rail\ground is OK IF the system is
grounded BUT if power lead not plugged in both ends
system IS NOT grounded !!![ so static to negative rail
could also cause damage ???]

3. Check the specs for your mobo. You should only need to
install matched pairs of DDR memory IF your mobo
uses a dual channel memory controller !!!!

Are your DDR sticks correctly and firmly seated in their slots ????

4. I know you will have checked for correct CPU orientation\mounting
in it's socket.

5. There are different types of AGP card and slot voltages supported
( by the mobos AGP slot). Check with your supplier
( also mobo manual and AGP card manual) that you are using the
correct AGP card for your mobos AGP slot !!!!!

If your AGP card needs a certain voltage to work and the mobo
provides an AGP slot voltage incompatible with your card
it won't work ( could damage both card and\or mobo slot
if your card needs a lower voltage).

6. It could be your power supply.

7. My main suspicion is a problem with your AGP card.
You could try another card ( and hope no damage has already
been done). Problem is plugging in a good card could damage that also.

This is why I suggested trying a SVGA PCI video card.
This could at least demonstrate that your system is working
and then it may proceed to boot normally.

If this happens then it's a good chance the problem was your
AGP card. Getting a properly matched AGP card later will
get your system back to what you want.

The PCI video is just an interim troubleshooting aid.

8. I have another idea. Your CMOS memory backup battery may have
gone flat and this could be affecting system startup
( on the old mobo but maybe not on the new one).
CMOS memory could also be damaged and this could foil
a normal startup via POST, boot etc..

At this stage there is probably sufficient doubt about so many things
that you may need to take each component back to the supplier and them
tested to verify if in fact they are still viable\usable. If something has been damaged they should be able to ID that fact at least.

The you can start with a good set of components and try again.
Can't think of anything more right now.

Good luck with it. Let us know how you went.

cheers

Web Gecko

[Web Gecko]

I may have been a little unclear above about handleing.

DON'T touch the chips\signal pins or metal traces on your mobo, expansion cards
or drive controllers period !!! [ static loves to kill sensitive electronics]

I always touch case metal to discharge myself each time before I work with a card
, drive or other internal PC component. You can also use an anti stat wrist strap.
Some people go to extra lengths ( anti stat floor mats and special clothing)
but this would be overkill here ( OK for electronics clean room work).

As regards operating mobos outside the case. I usually attach standoff
posts so the mob sits up off my work surface which provides good
isolation\insulation and good airflow. I once blew up an old junk mobo
( P1 I think ) I had sitting on some card board and I believe it may have
overheated (no airflow). Went off like a CRACKER in my face ( BIG BANG).
It was just old discarded equip I was learning with back in 2001
(so was no loss). But I learnt something usefull from that.

cheers

Web Gecko

[Karnevil9]

The one time I had a start up problem where there were no beeps at all and no post beeps it was one bad ram. The fact that it is one of the compnents that has not been unique points to it more. Try booting with one stick only, and keep swapping the sticks one by one and see if there is any change. Even dual channel mobos will let you run on one stick I believe. it just has to be in the "master" ram slot. Check the Mobo book, it should tell you if that's the case.

[Web Gecko]

PLZ ignore my mention above regarding BIOS settings as if you can't even get to POST then of course you can't even get into the BIOS \ setup
( although as we don't really know if your CPU is even running i.e.
if it is it may be running some of the BIOS EEPROM (flash)
before it gets to the POST part and it may be crashing out before then.
The BIOS settings could still affect your mobos startup although you can't view or change these the way things are).

I wonder if it's possible you could have had any virus activity on the original
mobo before your last shutdown. Some of todays' virusses can even flash
( destroy basically) the EEPROM BIOS chip which will render your mobo unbootable. So if you can't boot you can't even use any saved version of your flash BIOS i.e. reload from floppy or CDR. = you cain't do ZIPPO.
They can recover a mobo by reflashing the eeprom chip with a special device at the factory but cost says that is impractical so the best route would be another mobo.

Your system starts and runs for a second or so SO my bet is your CPU runs your BIOS for a short time at least. My bet is your AGP card is incompatible with your mobo. I'm hoping nothing has been damaged.

If so either get an AGP card matched to your mobo requirements
OR remove the AGP card, get a cheap SVGA PCI video card and see if you can boot with that ( remove the AGP card first).
If you can boot this would prove my point
(here's hoping).

Also on testing a mobo outside the case, install standoff posts so your mobo sits up off your work surface AND allows airflow under the mobo as well
( quite important ). The standoff posts as used in a case stop the solder connections etc underneath the mobo from shorting with the case.

I also thought antistat materials like the mobo bag are actually
anti static in the sense that they act as an insulator to keep static
isolated from electronics and are NOT actually conducting as someone implied above i.e. a mobo can be grounded by just sitting on it's antistat bag ??? Doesn't sound right. Sitting on the bag the mobo will be isolated from static but not grounded by the bag as it is not a conductor ???

I think maybe Cricket mentioned this. Maybe he could add to this as I find that a little confusing also.

Also many mobos in the past used all plastic posts and standoffs.
So what's with this idea that a mobo has to be grounded ?
It is grounded via the AT or ATX power connector to the supply anyway !
So why does the mobo need to be grounded to the case ?
What purpose does that serve ? I don't think the screw\mounting points
and round lands on the mobo pcb are connected to the ground rail on the mobo anyway ! So how could it ever be grounded via the standoff posts ?
(interested in ideas here).


Have you had any joy with your investigations yet ?
Let us kow how you go.

cheers

Web Gecko