Weird Power ON - NO GO PROBLEM !!!!

[Web Gecko]

Howdy

My Bro inlaw has been experienceing the same weird no go power on
scenario for about a year now. Most of the time he has no problems
then occasionally he can't power his PC on. He is using an old
Celeron 333 with GA-6BXC mobo, 64MB sdram and Win 981E ( two HDDs
being his boot drive 2.5GB and a smaller 850MB storage drive).

His kids tend to dl a lot of virus ridden crap from the net
(wasn't running NAV but is now). His win install was basically wrecked
by virus code ( and there can be other cumulative hdd image corruption
with the 9X versions ) and windows wouldn't run ( system\iosubsys had
been deleted ). An over the top install has it's merits but given
all the bug activity and considering he had been running for over a year
on that install I decided on a full reload
( which you can't really beat for flushing everything off the drives
with llf, repartition, dos format and reload - the bugs can run but
they can no longer hide).
So we backed his essential files to CDR and did the reload
(which we scanned 1st with NAV2004 live updated before bringing back
in).

( for ref some of the bugs welcomed onboard were :

W32/Bizload.F@dl, W32/Netsky.D@mm, W32/Agent.H@dl,
W32/Jeemp.B (2x infection), W32/Dyfuca.S (well and truly ;O))
and the following backdoor security risks (trojans ???)
- WIN32.EXE
- PREINSTT.EXE
- ALCHEM.EXE
- WSEM300.DLL )

Sweet, system now runs fine with it's clean\efficient new install image.
Generally it powers down and up OK.

BUT occasionally it won't power up at all. By this I mean you
hit the power switch and the system stays dead, no lights on anything,
no fans, nothing. He has his screen, speakers, main PC power lead and a
Uniden wireless phone wart plugged in via a 4x point power board then to
the wall outlet. After I reinstalled his reloaded system it ran fine
until a day later in the evening when there was a surge and they lost
power. Afterwards they couldn't power up the PC again
BUT the screen, speakers and phone still had power from the board.
Only the PC seemed to have no power (soft on uses standby power I guess
to bring the system up).

Not sure how ATX mobos transfer the momentary soft on signal
to the Power On line of the ATX ps i.e. 5V TTL line I think
( soft on takes it high or low (which one ???).

He says there should be no distribution problem
i.e. his wall outlet\power board is not overloaded.
I fixed the problem by unplugging the PC lead and trying another point
on the board which worked. BUT going back to the problem point
it now had power BUT we have no evidence it didn't have power
either (the power board could be fine ).
He knows of course to swap in another board of course
to see how that goes.

Initially he suspected the PC ps ( old one was only around
235W and only 0.8A on the 5VSB line ) so we swapped it
with a better one along with the reload which is 300W
and has better than 5A on the 5VSB line.
BUT with the new supply after the surge we got the same
result. He tells me the power board doesn't need resetting.
Again everything else had power via board except PC
BUT this doesn't necessarily implicate the power board.

Is it possible it could be an APM/STANDBY or wake on issue ?
Have checked the mobo jumper settings and BIOS settings for
all these and can see nothing significant so far
i.e. if a wake on function such as wake on ring\LAN etc
was enabled and ps has too low a 5VSB rating then the system
may not be able to wake\power up ?
If standby was disabled in the BIOS what effect would this
have (how come it powers up most of the time then ?)?
Doesn't soft on require standby or is the ATX
Power On line just taken high or low
( enough power internal to ps to supply this ???).

I did notice that wake on ring will bring his system up with
my 56K Conexant\Rockwell external modem attached when it is
powered on BUT with his Supra 56K external attached
wake on ring don't work !!!

We are dealing with cheap ATX supplies so I may have to recommend
he gets something better. Does anyone know if some
ATX suppies are prone to flipping after say a surge
and just refusing to start until pushed a little ???
The next suspect is maybe a faulty mobo.
Does the GA-6BXC mobo have any known issues here ?

I am interested in hearing from anyone who has had similar
problems with an ATX based mobo\PC system
or who has any ideas\info relating to this.

I have also suggested he just runs his main PC lead
straight to the wall outlet, bypassing the power board to
eliminate that ( or maybe even the next wall outlet along).
I have also seen wall outlets go intermittent
(due to dirt, arcing\damaged or loose wires).
Today they can work but maybe not tomorrow.
BUT it's not a simple case where everything on the
one outlet loses power (just one item, the PC lead
on the power board).

After no joy at power on we of course check that our power
cord is well seated\plugged at both ends. ;O)

My 1st suspect is the board (dirt\damage possible
and maybe intermittent) BUT we need to make it happen again
so we can test our ideas. Of course if we swap boards or
go straight to the wall and it don't happen again we
have our answer. So far I have looked at everything
I can think of with no conclusive answer.
He took it to the PC shop people and they
have NO IDEA (but ideas will be out there).

Help needed. So far has me beat.

Thanks

Web Gecko

[Cricket]

I would swap things in this order...

Try another power switch.

Try another power supply.

Try another motherboard.

Cricket

[piasabird]

Here is a trick I learned for testing the switch. The power switch gets pressed a lot and it might ware out. However you may also have a reset switch. The reset switch works the same way as the power switch, it just goes to a different set of pins on the motherboard. if you disconnect the leads on the power switch and move the lead from the reset switch to the pins on the motherboard where the power on switch is suppose to be you can use that to test it.

Another way is to just disconnect it and use a screwdriver to touch the two pins to complete the circuit. This will tell the power supply to start.

If it still doesnt work it could ge a grounding issue.

What do you do if you put the computer together and then there is no message, no beeps and the screen is blank???

Try a couple of things that I have seen others do that sometimes works.

First disconnect all drives except the floppy. They just get in the way when testing the motherboard. Then remove all PCI cards. You do not need them to test a motherboard.

Reinspect how you installed the motherboard. Make sure it is not grounding out. Sometimes it can ground out just touching the standoff mounts. Try using some little paper washers to avoid this.

Then remount the CPU. Unfortunately you may have to take the CPU cooler off and remount it. Slide the cpu into the socket a few times. This rubs the pins a little. (There should still be Zero Force) Raise and lower the arm a couple times to lock the socket down and this will also rub the pins a little. Take the video card out and put it back in. Reseat the Ram. If you are taking off the board, work on the CPU and the RAM on top of a piece of cardboard, then mount the board back in the case. This keeps you from putting too much pressure on the motherboard. If it bends or bows circuits can be ruined. Make sure the CPU Fan is plugged into the Motherboard if it has a special plug on the Motherboard for it to go (this can cause a no start problem). If there is an option to run the board in jumper-free mode, set the jumper-free mode jumper to that setting. Then start the motherboard up with just the memory, processor, CPU cooler (with fan), video card, and floppy attached. Clear the BIOS also. There is usually a reset to defaults option in the BIOS. This should place all the settings in the BIOS to default and auto. Usually if everything checks out then you will get some beeps. Your motherboard manual should have the beep codes for errors. I like the motherboards that give one line messages on the screen if you can get to that point. If everything stays black it is time to consider a new power supply.

I have found that it is easy to kill a power supply. Sometimes just turning the computer back on kills the power supply. Make sure if you order a new power supply, that the dememsions will fit in your case. Try reconnecting the power supply once. I recommend Antec Power Supplies because they are quiet running and are an extremely high quality product.

If you have an old motherboard you could try putting it back in to test it. If it still has the old CPU in it, that makes it simpler. That would definitely tell you if it is the motherboard or the power supply.

Good Luck.

p.s.
You can also set the motherboard on a piece of cardboard and put in a Video card and start it. To start it up just find in the manual which 2 pins are for the power switch. You short out the power button leads to get it to start. It is better if you have an extra ATX Power Switch. They sell them at www.directron.com/ or www.dalco.com/ . You can always rip one out of an old Junky ATX case. Usually there are just 2 wires that plug into the motherboard. An ATX power switch is not an on/off switch; it just sends a signal to the power supply and the power supply comes on. If you hold the power button in for 4 seconds that normally shuts the power off again. It is called a momentary switch. If the motherboard does not work outside of the case it will not work inside of the case!

[Web Gecko]

Thanks for all the ideas

At the moment we have a system which is running very well.
No problem with it right now. After a full reload
(which rolls the virusses out FLAT !!!) things usually run
quite well. He has NAV 2004 running which will help a lot
( ANTI KID TONIC for the PC ).

This problem is intermittent in nature. Happens very rarely.
One day he powered up and used the system OK.
Next day it won't power up at all.

Usually just unplugging\replugging the power lead
fixes the problem. He knows to check that the power lead wasn't
dislodged somehow or is maybe loose in the PS socket end.

This is not the solution. It could be some weird distribution problem.
I doubt the power switch is it as it's so simple ( but you never can tell).
There is a setting in the BIOS for standby which seems to be
DISABLED ??? I wonder about this..............
(but mostly the system powers up fine).

Possible also that there is either a fault in the ps or the mobo.

Thanks for your help.
In the end I will have to do what Cricket suggests
and maybe even rebuild his system so I'll probably end up
doing everything again. He really needs an upgrade as those
old Celerons are right on the edge performance wise.

cheers

Web Gecko

[diver203_98]

When you say "power board" I assume you are refering to a power strip? If that is the case, and you did indeed receive a "surge" then it is time to buy a new power strip (board) as it will take a surge so it doesn't kill your system, but that same surge will also take out your power strip rendering it inefective. So your no start system is most likely a dead power strip. They are cheap insurance, but must be replaced after a surge. Some have a red light that indicates that it is working ( read your directions for this ) and when that red light no longer is lit, that indicates the strip is dead and needs to be replaced.

[Web Gecko]

Yeah I meant power strip.

Fact is the system is still running fine on the same power strip.
All 4 points seem to be working fine ( PC , screen, speakers and wireless phone all AOK ) now BUT it does make sense to swap the strip with a new
one.

This problem has not just occurred after surges. It just happens from time to time. It could be the strip but then there are other possibilities.

If a new strip don't work we will try going sraight to a wall outlet.

If that doesn't help ( my bro in law is an electrician and he tells me there should be nothing wrong distribution wise) then that would seem to implicate
maybe the PC ps unit, the mobo or even the power switch ( even though a very simple device).

Funny thing is EVERYTHING works fine for weeks or months on end.
Then it just happens out of the blue again.
First thing I check is that everything else has power ( which it does
i.e. all other points on the strip - so there is power from wall outlet to strip)
and that the PC power lead is seated right at both ends.
I haven't found a loose fitted cable yet or anything else for that matter.

I just unplugged\replugged the strip end and hey presto we had power again and could start\boot. Before you push the button and all is quiet.
( no signs of life).

In the end it will probably turn out to be something very simple
( I hope). He needs a new system anyway. I haven't ever experienced problems like that.

He is also a little stuck in his ways (old dog) and not always open to suggestions.

But we'll keep at it.

Thanks again.

cheers

Web Gecko