Old Dell HDD dead?

[nzchris]

A couple of questions here-

System: Dell Dimension 4300
Hardware: All original
OS: Windows XP Home edition provided by Dell
No tweaks mods and no software install around this occuring.

Short story is it the system no longer boots and Setup shows the drive as unknown device.
Only one HDD and its unknown. It "was" a 40GB Ultra ATA/100 @7200 rpm I believe.

1. Is it dead? I haven't cracked the case yet- it never has been opened- Is there any chance of recovery?

2. OK If it is gone the way of free lunches- I am thinking of replacing with a Western Digital 80GB / 7200 /Hard Drive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...&Order=REVIEWS

3. Once it's installed, I have Dell's Windows CD- with code- to install the OS. Is there any problem seen there with the hardware change?

Any thoughts on the hard drive issue or it's replacement is appreciated!

[LeftyAce]

Sounds like a dead hdd. You can attempt recovery of your data by attaching the drive to another computer as a slave. It will show up there as the 'E' drive (or another letter further down). If you want to test the harddrive mechanics/electronics, download the ultimate boot cd and run the appropriate harddrive diagnostics....you'll need to open the case to see which company made the drive.
I don't think that will tell you anything that no longer booting hasn't already told you; sounds like the drive is done :-(

That WD drive looks fine....we usually recommend Seagate though, as they have a 5 year warrenty, and reliability such that you rarely need to take advantage of it. Any ATA 100 drive in that size range will do fine. (Once you get up above 250GB some older motherboards have problems, but in the 80GB range, you should be fine).

If what you have is really a windows install CD (that's what dell usually does; HP and emachines do dumb stuff with recovery cds, however) then you are fine to install on a replacement drive using the same license code, etc.

[nzchris]

Placed my order on newegg- will let you know how it goes- thanks!

[glc]

Using the Dell-supplied XP disk needs neither a code or activation. As long as it sees a Dell bios, it just installs with no further action required.

[kev7555]

Another vote for Seagate drives. I've had four Western digital drives fail in the last 12 months, all of them only a year or two old. A 40Gb, an 80, a 120 and a 250.

They were all in different systems and were not used for any real radical writing of data.



-Kev

[nzchris]

The Seagate is here!
But after installing the system still wont boot- screen displays select F1 ro try to reboot (only beeps) or F2 to enter setup.

In setup the drive is "unknown" and the only settings are off an auto.
It is set to auto.

Other info-
Jumper is set to cable select
IDE Drive Interface- auto
Power is connected
Cable is connected

Ideas anyone?

[nzchris]

Maybe all this isnt a hardware issue- could it be caused by an old CMOS battery? The MOBO is 6 years old...

Is this possible?

[PCBrandon]

Click here to download Dell Diagnostics. It'll create a set of floppy diskettes to boot to. Boot to the floppies and run all tests.

[nzchris]

Originally Posted by PCBrandon Click here to download Dell Diagnostics. It'll create a set of floppy diskettes to boot to. Boot to the floppies and run all tests.

Thanks for the try- but there is no way for me to get it to a floppy.
BUT- did find the CD version and am burning the iso now.

Note BIOS doesnt recognize the CD ROM drive either- saying not installed- thats why i was wondering if this is more than a hard drive issue and maybe the battery

[PCBrandon]

The next step would be to reset your BIOS. You can accomplish this either by using the appropriate jumper on your motherboard or by pulling out your CMOS battery for 30 seconds and replacing it.

[nzchris]

Removed the battery.

Invalid configuration information- please run setup program
Performing automatic IDE configuration
Time of day not set etc..

... and the interesting line
alert! System battery voltage is low.

Would you agree?
Maybe it tis the battery- so off to radio shack in the morning.
Thanks for the steps!

[PCBrandon]

Sounds like it. That error can appear because the the battery really isn't providing the full 3 volts it should or if the battery isn't completely in contact with the motherboard. It can also appear if the motherboard is faulty, but it's much cheaper to buy a replacement CMOS battery first.

[glc]

Did you clean out all the dust inside the case? After this amount of time I bet it's filthy in there. I'd do that, then reseat all the cables, you may have some dirty or loose connections.

It's possible the IDE cable or cables are going bad.

[nzchris]

Hmm checked the voltage of the old one and it was Ok.
Tried a new battery anyways and it returned the same info as above.

GLC yeah it was filthy I cleaned out the dust before starting work.

Funny thing was before I cracked open the system CDROM was a known device and after installing the new HDD no devices are known. What might this suggest?

I will do as you say and re-check all connections.
At the moment it says no boot device available - which makes sense as it doesnt see the new HDD or the old CDROM.

After checking connections- any other suggestions?

[LeftyAce]

The harddrive and the cd drive are on the same cable, correct? So if one is unrecognized it's not surprising that the other wouldn't be either. Do you have a spare cable you can try? Also, if you leave the harddrive out, is the CD drive recognized by itself?

[nzchris]

Actually the hard drive and CD are on different cables and branch from different power cables.

I took out the old drive which I had attached as a slave and just have the new seagate.
What happens:
I see the MOBO orange light
another light on the MOBO turns green on boot
BUT I dont hear the new seagate spin- instead there is a clicking or ticking sound.

I then get the error message that no bootable device is found.
ideas?

BTW removing the harddrive it found both CDROMs and assigned them as secondary master and slave

[nzchris]

The CDROM uses the same type of cable.
I unplugged the CD and attached the new HDD to that end.

Result- same clicks as before.

[Kuch]

Maybe the PSU is going bad?

[nzchris]

Battery checked OK.
Pullled out 10 mins and reinserted- no change

CDROM is now recognized.
HDD old or new is not recognized

Switched cables CDROM to HDD and no result- (guess that rules out IDE cable issue)
Removed. cleaned and reseated all cables

Ran Dell Diagnostic CD- Didn't recognize system as a Dell (even though system is 100% Dell with no mods- see first post)

Next steps- old drive is maxtor (say no more) will run ultimatebootcd tools on it and post here.
I can pull a new PSU and try it but is that a likely issue??

What really gets me is the new seagate drive doesnt even spin. I only hear clicks from it. It's a lot bigger than the original 40 GB- think I went with 160Gb- might that be an issue with the BIOS?
HD too big for BIOS?

When I connect the old one at least it spins until you hear it "powering down" until the F1 or F2 message appears- which was the original reason for thinking hard drive.

Last thought- BIOS has never been updates- pretty sure of that- could an update help? How would I do it without a working system? (I can use another system to burn anything to a disk for the working CD ROM)

Yours in "easy fix" frustration...

[LeftyAce]

Ran Dell Diagnostic CD- Didn't recognize system as a Dell

That indicates a BIOS problem.....I apoligize I can't really help you with what to do with that :-( but I'm sure there's others here who can.

[nzchris]

Ran Seatools DOS Boot-

With Seagate hard drive attached- Result HDD not found
With old Maxtor harddrive attached- Result HDD not found.

Not a stellar result by any means.

I note too that if the Primary drive is set to "Auto" in the BIOS then it is an unknown device AND so is the CDROM. If the Primary drive is set to "OFF" then the CDROMs are found and listed as CDROMs.

I'm now at a loss for next steps.
I guess I will slave to another machine the new seagate- prob do the maxtor too- and see if they can be seen or not but cant see what else to do with getting the old system to recognize the hard drives!!!

Anyone wanna place a bet on what the next most likely culprit is if it isn't the hard drive??
MOBO? or PSU as suggested before? or an alien with a "I-just-wanna-F-with-ya-on-a-hot-day-as-ya-fix-a-friends-old-machine" attitude?

LeftyAce- will take a look at your suggestion and see if and how I can update the system

[PCBrandon]

It could be either a BIOS, motherboard or PSU issue. I'd have you flash the BIOS to latest version but I'm not aware of a way to do that without an operating floppy or even a CD-ROM.

I think the easiest next step would be if you had a known good PSU would be to replace it and see if that does anything. I don't have my money on the PSU though.

[nzchris]

I am using the original A02 BIOS.

So given all the above yes it may be a BIOS issue.
An upgrade to version 6 specfically addresses-
11.Fixed 'Unknown device' shown in Setup when a bad hard drive is detected.

Which has started this day of troubleshooting.
From the Dell website the latest in 6.

I created two floppies one of each version selecting the bootable floppy bootable version.
Both were tried in the system.

Version 6- came back not a bootable disk
Version 5- nada- same old hit F1 or F2 to continue.BIOS version didnt upgrade.

What am I missing here?

[Dan Penny]

Your "clicking" situation can also be caused by the drive jumpers (iMaster/Slave etc.) being incorrectly set. Some drives have a "Master with Slave" as well as a Master position.

If you're using CS you should have an 80 conductor/40 pin data cable. Not a 40 conductor/40 pin data cable.

[glc]

New drive is DOA.

[nzchris]

Dan- How can I tell the difference between the data cables?
I know the pin config on the HD is correct at CS- I have also tried as master still no result.

Tried a 3rd known working HDD using a cable from the working system attached to it and put in the old Dell system. (i.e I know both parts work so taking that outta the equation).
Result:
HDD is found.
I get past the F1 F2 error BUT windows comes to screen saying it didnt close down properly last time choose method to reboot etc.
I tried all from Safe Mode to Last Good Config - result Windows fails to load.

Given all that happened I am leaning to:
Original HDD went bad AND
Seagate is bad- cable to Seagate is wrong and/or bad -or Seagate drive is too big for old BIOS

AND

BIOS is corrupt given Dell diagnostics doesn't recognize it even though I know all is OEM.

What do you think?

I have tried to update the BIOS via floppy using the floppy option on the Dell website yet the system returns that its not a bootable disk.

Ideas? Options?

[glc]

RMA the Seagate drive and buy a new 80 wire cable. The bios should handle a drive larger than 137gb fine but if your XP CD has no service packs it's limited to seeing only 137gb. This will translate to 128gb in Windows. Windows will install on a partition that size or smaller, and when you get SP2 installed you can partition the rest of the drive or resize the partition with Partition Magic. You cannot slipstream a Dell CD to the best of my knowledge.

[nzchris]

GLC- agreed will return the Seagate.

Any thoughts on
1. Why Dell diagnostics doesnt recognize the Dell system?
2. The working HDD wouldnt load a working version of Windows even in safe mode on this Dell but does on the system I pulled it from- an old Gateway BTW?

It seems to me that if it's a BIOS issue that needs to be resolved before I can get a working HDD installed-no?

[glc]

The reason the Gateway HDD wouldn't load Windows is because of the different hardware. This is normal with XP due to the differences in the IDE controllers. This is why we tell people they will have to do a repair reinstall of Windows when they move a hard drive to a new system.

Your bios is probably fine - if anything, all you need to do is clear the cmos and reenter the correct parameters.

[nzchris]

Originally Posted by Dan Penny Your "clicking" situation can also be caused by the drive jumpers (iMaster/Slave etc.) being incorrectly set. Some drives have a "Master with Slave" as well as a Master position. If you're using CS you should have an 80 conductor/40 pin data cable. Not a 40 conductor/40 pin data cable.

Agreed. I will try an 80/40 cable before any return.
Great advice.