Intel or AMD

[GangstaAngel]

Regardless, I always root for the under dog and I just quite frankly love my AMD setup. Period!

Hey I agree with you....my abit machien is bad to the steel. Also Hal, I don't think I would ever put Linux on an AMD machine. The only machine that has any linux system on it is a Dual celeron machine. It has mandrake. I am not to sure how linux and AMD would work together. All three of my AMD machines have 2000.

[Michael]

LOL....good point. The operant word is "root"....I use M$....but have a copy of linux just itchying to be installed (it's all my brother will use). I may use MS, but I would love to see Linux take a decent market share away from Bill, et.al.

[HAL9000]

Just making a point, and AMD will run Linux too. The "underdog" approach quickly turns one into a hypocrit (no offense intended). I also see on other places the "underdog" approach, yet some of these same people won't touch an ATI video card either. Well, ATI makes just a fine of a product like AMD and Intel, they are the underdog to Nvidia, where does "always root for the underdog" come into play? While we're rooting for the underdog, let's go out and buy PC-Chips motherboards and Austin or Deer power supplies

[Michael]

My Bro is totally AMD....he's a tech and I don't think has ever owned, built or recommended an Intel (it's just his way of thinking....I'm not saying it's right or wrong...he just does not like Intel based on the days when it was such a monopoly). He runs Linux exclusively on AMD/VIA platforms with no problem.

[Michael]

I doubt PC-CHIPS would ever make it into the superbowl of motherboards. By underdog I mean a product that has proved itself in some way, shape or form, is competetive and SHOWS PROMISE....is COMPETENT, etc, etc. C'mon Hal, your nit picking me away here. The 69 mets.........perfect example of what I meant. They proved they were for real after years of being laggards. So, if semantic accuracy is to be maintained....no, I do not ALWAYS root for the under dog....only the ones that are are capable of proving their newfound worth.

[Toaster]

Howdy folks,
Lets address a few items folks posted, one at a time.

First up, Michael:
You stated that you would put your K6-III up against a similarily clocked Intel system. Well pal, I want a piece of that action!
The system I would use is a lowly Celeron 300a @ 450/500mhz on a BX class system board. All else being the same, I would make you eat your words and have your K6-III beg for a quick mercifull death.
Can you say the following?
I can install *any* vidcard without compatability?
I can install *any* soundcard without incompatability?
I can use most any power supply?
I can overclock 100%?

You sir are using the MVP chipset. The BX class system board is documented to have nearly 50% faster memory moves, 33% faster PCI/AGP transfer rates.
The BX class chipset based system boards have *no* compatability issues, what-so-ever....period.
So...wrap that puppy up, you are going to have a real bad hair day!


Next issue:
The "underdog" theory.
Give me a break Micky$oft lovers!
Say "underdog" when using a closed O/S such as Win-Tendo. (Micky$oft Winderz to you "underdog" lovers.)
Say "underdog" when you start your Micky$oft O/S that has designed in prejedice to "other" browsers.
Say "underdog" when AMD decides to do away with another platform such as slotA.
Say "underdog" when AMD licenses the following from Intel:
PCI
AGP
ATX
and others....
Say "underdog" when a certain vid card or sound card won't work in your AMD.
Say "underdog" when your heatsink/fan fails and you smell smoke.
Say "underdog" when VIA offers another patched chipset.
Say "underdog" when you "say" approved this and that.
Say "underdog" when your disk I/O is below the capabilities of the PCI bus which VIA can't seem to fully utilize.
Say "underdog" when you fork out $100.00+ for a Micky$oft O/S.
Say "underdog" when you re-install that O/S because of conflicts.
Say "underdog" when AMD must resort to the "PR" rating of their processors to boost sales because they can't break the 2ghz mark.
Say "underdog" when AMD can't even build a decent chipset for their own processors.


"Why" won't I do AMD?.....reread the above until you understand why "underdog" doesn't cut it with me and many other folks who see right through this bullsheet.


I have found most AMD folks to have simple misplaced loyalties and unfounded claims. That claim "this" when they never had "that".
Know of what you speak. Speak of what you know.

[GangstaAngel]

While we're rooting for the underdog, let's go out and buy PC-Chips motherboards and Austin or Deer power supplies

Hal I never wanna hear you say that again. And I am no underdog person....I just Liked AMD the same way I have liked GeForce from the beginning. I have my preferences.

[Michael]

O.k. this has now turned into a free for all take no prisoners thread that is unbecoming of PcMech. If you re-read my statements about my K6/3 I said nothing about speed performance, o.c'ing, etc, etc. I made my statement soley based on stability. Only I can judge the merits there because I am the one that ran that system hard day in and day out and it's reliability was superb. I compared my AMD system to that of Intel in terms of stability and only stability. As for the "underdog" tirade all I can say is..........whatever. Geez.

[GangstaAngel]

You know what I got to say...since all of this is gettin out of hand. Has anyone read about the new Cyrix chip? C3 933 MHZ!!!! Yeah baby now taht is overclocking chips. CYRIX 4 LIFE. It is made by Via and via doesn't even make a board for it. who does?

[HAL9000]

First of all, I have to admit, I was looking to stir the pot a bit and I succeeded Apologies to anyone offended.

I do believe that the Cyrix chips do have support on some VIA chipset based boards. I know I have seen some QDI, but can't remember off hand any others.

[GangstaAngel]

I will put a bet up with anyone. I will buy a C3 933 chip and OC it 3 ghz and i want all you intel and amd dorks to come out and battle. I will even put out my machien against it.

[HAL9000]

I would be impressed if you can get a Cyrix 933 overclocked to 934Mhz without it going up in flames.

[Toaster]

Howdy folks,
I guess I was out of line and I too must apologize.
You folks caught me on a strange day and on such days I tend to "let the fur fly".
At any rate, sorry.

(Now go get an Intel)

[GangstaAngel]

The cyrix from back in the day could be over clocked bicely...why not the new one's? they are cooler.

[Computer Hobbyist]

Originally posted by GangstaAngel I don't think I would ever put Linux on an AMD machine.

Why?

CH

[GangstaAngel]

I am not sure how things would work out....

[RayH]

An AMD with VIA chipset runs BETTER with Linnux than Windows. I have a friend who has a whole house full of them, dual booting. His Windows boot doesn't work worth beans. But he doesn't care, as he is a Linnux guy that just keeps the Windows around for the "just in case" few files he has to read!

Because there is nothing different in the hardware, he is fully convinced that the problem is Windows! He's the guy who can't make his SCSI burner run decently with Windows. It will burn two discs and shutdown as if it were a heat problem. He uses command line under Linnux and burns all day long! Go figure!

[glc]

Gangsta - I may be nitpicking here but I do have to take issue with something you said - you compared all the iterations of Pentium from 1 to 4 with just the Athlon - that is not a fair comparison. During the lifespan of the Pentium line, AMD marketed the following chips, all decent except as noted:

5x86 (really a 486)
K5 (a very poor effort, used a phony PR-rating)
K6 (arithmetic unit? What's that?)
K6-2 (First decent AMD effort since the 486)
K6-3
K6-2+
K6-3+
Athlon Classic
Athlon T-Bird
Duron
Athlon XP

As a side note - I am running an AMD K6-2 processor on an Intel TX chipset - so there!

[HAL9000]

And lets not forget the MP versions GLC.

[GangstaAngel]

But they weren't athlons They were "K's"

[mc2phat]

originally posted by Toaster

"Say "underdog" when AMD decides to do away with another platform such as slotA."

Intel played this game too. SECC SECC2 Socket 370 Socket 423/478

P.S. I typed this with one hand, cut the left index finger with a knife and burned the left index/badfinger on Mr. Foreman's grill. One of my social experiments on stupidity with me as the control group. Chicken turned out damn skippy at least.

[HAL9000]

Yea, but when Intel did it, they were called stupid, when AMD did the same thing, they were called innovative.

[mc2phat]

Well, for AMD it was innovative. The SlotA platform lacked on-die L2 cache, and sucked IMO. They've stuck with Socket A for a reasonable amount of time.

[GangstaAngel]

Yea, but when Intel did it, they were called stupid, when AMD did the same thing, they were called innovative

I like that one.....Well I am gonna be building a pentium machine in the nxt couple months to go right next to my athlon....I don't care....

[HAL9000]

Originally posted by mc2phat Well, for AMD it was innovative.

Hardly, it was AMD playing puppy dog sniffing Intel's butt. The slot was physically the same, gee, wonder where the whole idea came from

[tritium]

I can see the big picture now...

Intel vs AMD
Coke vs Pepsi
Ford vs Chevy
The chicken vs the egg

To each His/Her own!!!!


By the way, did anyone see the new review about the just released Athlon xp 2000+ vs the new P4 core @ 2 and 2.2 Ghz. Check it out at active-hardware.
That Athlon it`s an amazing processor.

[Alfie]

Pentium Pro=socket
Pentium II=slot
Pentium III=socket
PentiumIV=socket,but which one?Isn't there 4 different types!

AMD K6= socket
Athlon=slot
Thunderbird and Duron=Socket A
XP=socket A
mp=socket A
mpx=socket A
The reason both companies switched to socket,it was cheaper and produced a faster cpu.
Gripes all the way around for both companies,but in the long run a better cpu has emerged from both companies.
Many of AMD's designs have been described as innovative.
3D Now was innovative.
K6 III's design was innovative(borrowed from Sun,I think)L1,L2,L3 cache led to a hungry cpu!
Guess what,one of Intel's new cpus will also boast L1,L2.L3 cache,but on the chip!
I wonder how they thought that up?
The Athlon and it's predeccesors are innovative(how about great)
Going from slot to socket was not innovative,but practical!
Did you know AMD'S 386 or 486 cpu still holds the overclocking crown!
Could easily double it's rated mhz!
All this ranting and raving is boring!
As I've said both cpus are great,competition is good.
Mindless statements and fault finding isn't.
I've used both systems and like both.
I feel many of the faults found with either system can be laid out at users feet and OS'S feet.
As Via gains more support,they seem to be improving.
As far as us AMD users,it's the best we can use.
It would be nice if Intel built a chipset for AMD,but that could be counterproductive as to their wallets!
It's a shame Intel locked their cpus it would be fun to see how far you could stretch them using multipliers and fsb,but...
As far as Athlons reaching their end,I don't think so.
Well that's enough said for now.

[padawan]

OK, odds are I am one of the few people here that has actually spoken to Intel and AMD people (at E3). Just want to clear up the SlotA issue. Why did AMD use an identical slot? Very simple. The Athlon was new, and they were not sure if any mobo manufacturers would jump on the AMD bandwagon. In order to make things as easy as possible, they built their CPU to run in the exact same slot (although the pin-outs are different). Thus, a mobo maker could use the same plastic slot piece for either platform.

It seems to me there are a few Intel drones here that won't even pause for a moment to say 'Yes, AMD has created a kick ass chip. It is faster, but Intel is making a comeback'. Face it, even with the new Northwood, the XP 2000+ is equal to the 2.0GHz P4. Is the P4 fast? Yes. Is the XP faster? Yes. Is Intel winning the Ghz race? Yes. Does the public understand the architecture of the P4, and the reason it is slower than the XP (long pipelines with missed predictions)? Absolutely not. But wait, we are not allowed to use benchmarks to compare the CPUs. For that K6-2 versus Celeron challenge, just how do you propose we compare the chips, if benchmarks lie and the systems are like apple and oranges? AMD's new rating is dumb, but if the average person knew a Tbird from a P4, we wouldn't need it. From what I saw today, the new Northwood at 2.5GHz beats the 1.67GHz XP. Boo Hoo. AMD has new CPUs in the pipe, just like AMD. The XP core is at the end of it's life cycle, the same as the P3 was.

I also have a theory about the boards being plauged with AMD people. More people are buying AMD CPUs to do homebuilds, and these people are more likely to come here for tech support. Intel owns the business market, and the server market, but odds are not too many of us are here asking for tech support on the box in our office. Business and government buy waaaay more computers than we do, and that is why Intel is in the lead in market share. There is a saying 'Nobody ever got fired for buying Intel'. Maybe not, but an AMD workstation is just as good.

This whole heat issue is over-rated, too. My CPU runs at 38-46' C, overclocked to 1.85V. If I drop the voltage to normal range, it hovers in the 35-42 range. Considering it can get close to 90'C before it dies, I am certain it is fine. The people who have the HSF pop-off problems are the guys (like myself) that are changing heatsinks excessively, and wearing out the cleats. I seem to recall a fix for this posted many years ago when we were smashing socket 370 boards for the sake of reviews.

VIA isn't as bad as you guys are making it out to seems. One sound card caused them some trouble (Live! cards), and there was an issue with some AGP slots not working, but that was attributed to the motherboards, not the VIA chipset. Let's face it, installing some 4-in-1 drivers is not a huge, massive, show stopping problem. It takes about 1 minute if you include the reboot. Big deal. Should we fault a video card for needing drivers? How about a poll, who has built an AMD system that has worked just fine from day one? I can account for three here alone.

AMD can build chipsets. They built the excellent 760 chipset for their DDR boards. They have said time and again that they do not want to be in the chipset business. I cannot see how not wanting to be in that market makes them a bad company. Get your facts "straight" before you make "claims". If you read through this entire thread, there are a couple of Intel folks that are so combative, that it really takes the fun out of the debate. Then again, we can't use benchmarks, because all websites lie. Screw it, I'm just going to throw my AMD system away and buy Intel because "AMD just sucks".

As for the MS thing, we should all give them at least a little credit. Without Windows, your grandma and my dad would not have a computer, and we would not be in this debate, or we'd all have I-Macs. I can't see too many non-geeks using the command line, and I'd kick myself in the nuts before I'd buy a Mac.

[Alfie]

padawan,
I'm in complete agreement,some people seem to get a little combative.
No need!
I've also got a total of three AMD systems,no major problems,at least no more than an Intel system!
The K6 III cpu was always one of my favorites,if I recall benchmarks killed it!Its fpu wasn't as good as Intel's!Yet,if you looked at it from a business sense rather than a gaming sense,it was one heck of a cpu.
It worked like a champ as a server,all that cache,that cpu was hungry for work!Easily beat any Intel cpu at the same rating!
So now the same benchmarks that won the battle for Intel shouldn't be used!Though many of them have been optimized for Intel!
They're now,unreliable,must be lying,etc.
I believe AMD will be coming out with some newer cpus,but late as usual!
You're right about MS,I've always been a defender.
Why do you suppose they have no competition?
Let's consider the undertaking of designing an OS.
The way some people act it's the same as a word processor program!
When I fault it,it's in its early lack of support for Via.(Yet I understand there's no way they could offer support for every chipset,when Intel ruled 93%of chipsets used)
Support didn't start to show until Win98SE,but now,XP offers full support,making the 4in1 a little obsolete.
The confusion surronding Via's 4in1 is yet another point worth discussing,most of the 4in1 drivers are not needed for later chipsets and OS'S and yet people will install them all and then gripe when their systems are problematic.
The Via busmastering drive can definitley mess up a system,if one where to read Via's faq's about their drivers,the info is rather interesting.
Do you need the usb patch?
If you're using Win98se and above,NO!
Do you need the busmastering drive?
Once again Win98 and above,NO!
The agp drive is really the only one you need in 98,98se,ME and in XP it's no longer needed.(When used in conjunction with Via's newer chipsets)
That's all for now!

[Computer Hobbyist]

padawan

Very well reasoned argument. I applaud it, and you for your knowledge and passion.

I have two sons who are auto mechanics. They both have college degrees. They both work at the same dealership. My younger son is passionate about GM. He hates Ford and Chrysler. He has one of those stickers with the little boy "peeing" on the word Ford. He can tell you in great detail why Ford is terrible, and why he hates working on his Grandmother's Lincoln. His arguments are reasoned and difficult to dispute.

My older son is just that--older. He has a wife, two kids, a mortgage payment and two car payments. He's been working with the local community college by tutoring advanced automotive students and I am told next semester he will be teaching at nights. He is just as passionate as his younger brother about GM, but he doesn't have a sticker of the little boy. I don't know if he loves working on his Grandmother's Lincoln, or his minister's Plymouth, but he needs the money, so he smiles a lot. Instead of talking Ford down, he talks GM up, giving his father lectures about the merits of the Northstar system, or GM's antilock break system. He is especially proud of the computers on board every new vehicle. It seems that to be a service tech today, you have to know a lot about computers.

In any event, this entire thread reminds me of my younger son, and the sticker of the little boy "peeing" on the word Ford. I just wish the thread could turn into something my older son would feel comfortable with. Each side talking up the merits of their respective manufacturer.

Please don't think I am aiming this post at you. I am aiming it at everybody, myself included, who has let passion lead him or her to tear down the other side.

CH