Looking for help - the age old problem of computer crashing.

[dredg]

Hello everyone,

ive had this problem for a while now and tried diffirent help methods, so i thought id puit it to you. The problem is my computer keeps crashing. Not now and again, regularly. And at random also. Wheteher im surfing the web or playing a game its guaranteed to happen. The whole system locks, no ctl-alt-delete combiantion or power off, i have to reset. Origianlly i thought it was a dodgy windows installation of windows 98. I formatted my drive and reinstalled win98 but it started crashing again. So the next day i went out and bought win2k, installed this but it happened again. So i turned to my hardware. I bought a 128mb stick and replaced the origianl 256mb stickto see if there was a fault here, it crashed again. I installed a new fan to rule out my cpu overheating, it crashed again. So now im at a loss. This is my system spec:

Windows 2000
AMD Duron 1.1 ghz
384 mb SDRAM
SiS graphics, audio, modem drivers.
PC-Chips 810mlr motherboard

If anyone has any ideas on what to do next id love to hear them as this problem is not only costing me alot of money but is also very frustrating. The place i got it from only covers hardware faults and charge 30 quid for testing and that, plus they are ot very helpful, so i turn to you.

Any ideas ?

[Fraughton]

What kind of power supply do you have? A bad quality supply can cause the system to lock up like that.
Or it could be the pcchips motherboard, I havent heard much good about them on this forum in the past.

[mike breck]

It could be Hardware, Software, or Overheating that's causing it.

I would check the software route first before rushing out to buy replacement hardware.

What programs do you have running in the background all the time? Too many or specific programs (MacAfee Anti- Virus) can cause system lockups.

My advice would be to switch off your anti-virus and Ctrl+Alt+Del and "Endtask" EVERYTHING apart from Explorer and Systray. Now run the PC normally and just open programs when you need them.

If the lockups disappear, then you know software is causing it. You can then enable one program at time until lockups occur again and that will tell you the software (or combination of software) that's causing it.

You say you added a new CPU HSF to counteract possible overheating. Go into the BIOS and monitor the CPU temp for about 20-30 mins. What temp does it reach? If it's 50-60c, then you may have an CPU overheating problem.

Also try running your PC with the cover off and a table fan directed onto the mobo. Does that alleviate the lockups? If it does, then overheating may be the culprit if the CPU temp is borderline.

Let us know how you get on.

[Cricket]

Hi dredg,

If the problem is freezes and system lock ups with no error messages, I'd say it's heat related. Have you tried running your system with the case off or open? How big is your case? Mini-towers are terrible as far as cooling goes. Does your system have case fans installed?

What power supply is being used in your system? Is it a good quality one? A poor quality power supply will feed "dirty" power to the motherboard and that can cause problems.

If you're getting lots of error message or BSOD's, I'd look at the RAM first.

Follow mike breck's suggestions for finding software conflicts.

Hope you can find what's causing your problems.

Cricket

[dredg]

@ cricket, mike breck and fraughton.

Hello, thanks for your replys. I will try to answer ur questions. I am using a 300w power supply. The computer is pretty new, however at times, i have noticed the cord which connects to the back of the system makes a cracking noise if at a funny angle, and resets. It hasnt done this in a while though and still my computer crashes on a regular basis.

I am 99% sure it is not software related as i have formatted and installed two differnet operating systems from fresh with no other programs on them and still it crashes. Maybe though there is a problem with the software i need to install that installs my modem audio networking etc drivers, these are from the SiS company.

After doing some research on my motherboard, i am leaning towards it being a problem here, as many others have experienced similar faults. Issues such as the board not supporting AMD Duron 1ghz processors becasue of the 'morgan core' (?!?) However as im not really a techy person i dont trust myself opening the case and exploring here, or 'flashing the BIOS' as someone suggested.

I think i will return it to base and let them test it, as much as i dont want to. Being a student money is tight and im worried im going to have to fork out for a whole new motherboard, my warranty covers hardware not software, but if they cant find a fault they charge me. Chances are they will say they cant find a fault and im in the same posistion as before minus some cash.

Thanks for your help though and any more support on the topic would be valued greatly.

Regards, dredg.

Forgot to add i dont hink its heat related as i have removed the case sides and posistioned a table fan blowing air in yet it still crashed, and my normal cpu temp is around 38-42'C. And there are no error messages either, just a total lock up.

[RenegadeKing]

Do you know what brand the power supply is? And pc-chips mobos are pretty infamous around here. Known for using cheap components and crapping out on people. That could be the source of the crashing.

RenegadeKing

[Cricket]

Hi dredg,

I gotta agree with RenegadeKing, it sounds like a low quality power supply that's feeding "dirty" power to the motherboard. Can you get ahold of another power supply to test with? Try to get a good quality name brand one like Antec, Enermax, Sparkle Power, PowerMan, Hi-Power or PC Power & Cooling.

Cricket

[dredg]

Excuse my thickness, but what exactly do you mean by power supply ?

Do you mean actually inside the case ? Because all i have is black cord from the mains to a 3 pin connection at the back of my PC.

How would i know if the part inside my case is faulty ?

[RenegadeKing]

open up the left side panel of the case. At the rear top you'll see a metal box with many red, yellow, and black wires coming out of it. This is the power supply. These wires will plug into other devices in the computer. Also, this is what the black cable you have plugs into. The power supply plugs right into the wall. It converts the AC to DC. Anyway, try to find a label on it to find a brandname. Then post it here.

RenegadeKing

[RayH]

Crackling? It sounds like the problem is right there. The cable, the power supply, or both.

[dredg]

OK , checked my power supply and all it said was 300atx on the side so i guess this isnt much help.

I think i will send it back to the place i got it, they said they would put it through some benchmarking tests, would these tests cover the power supply?, im scared the damned thing wont crash whilst under tests.

Ill let you know how i got on.

Thanks for the help.

[mike breck]

While not ruling out the PSU, sometimes if you move the case and the Power cable is not straight, you will get reboot or shutdown.

Another thing (which won't cost you anything) to test is Ram. Try one stick at a time and see how this affects the problem. You can also test your Ram by booting into Safe Mode. This will automatically test the Ram. If a stick is faulty you will get an error.

What you could also do is disable onboard audio and then the onboard modem in the BIOS. Just in case there is an IRQ conflict with either of these onboard devices. If the crashing stops, then it would point to one of these devices causing the problem.

These are things you can try yourself and don't cost a penny.

HTH

[dredg]

Hi Mike,

Im prettty sure its not the RAM as i put a new stick in the other day without the original and it still crashed, i also ran memtest for hours without any problems.

I could try disbaling the onboard sound and modem, although i havent got a external modem so id be without the internet for a bit :-(, but if it helps my problem then its definetly worth it.

Thanks for your help, will go try your suggestions. I understand that provlems like these are well hard to diagnose over the internet.

Regards,dredg.

[RayH]

I hope your find your problem. It's something that could be any of or any combination of problems. I just went through one myself.

As for power related problems, the power coming into the computer can be faulty. There may not be constant voltage.

The power supply unit, itself could be producing a stable supply, but one of the wires (or a single contact) coming out of the unit could be faulty. Be sure units of the harnesses are checked.

The heat sink may not be making a good contact with the processor.

If running with the case cover off for extended periods, it may need the cover ON. It effects the air flow venturi.

The RAM may be good. But the motherboard may be picky about the RAM it uses.

Faulty motherboard.

I just went through one of these scenarios with an all-in-one motherboard. After bunking around for a week, I just pulled the motherboard for another better class board. Amazingly, the replacement board was bad. Had I not been using Drive Image, I'd never would have known. The screen did not look right in DOS.

I replace the board with individual hardware board. It third board was overheating. I put the case cover on, monitoring it for 36 hours...actually running it under load for 36 hours. End of problem.

[mike breck]

The reason I suggested disabling the onboard sound and modem is that you seemed to suggest the problem mainly occured when surfing the web (modem) or playing games (sound and graphics).

So what I would suggest is disabling the sound and modem and then playing a game without any sound. If the game plays beyond the time period where you have begun to expect a lockup, then that would suggest a conflict with the sound or modem drivers or IRQs.

If it runs crash-free, you could then enable the onboard sound and see if the system then locksup when playing the same games. Then the modem etc.

You see what I'm getting at? It's systematic approach to isolating the cause of the problem.

It may well be that the onboard elements don't work very well together on this mobo and you may need to add an AGP, Sound Card, or external modem.

As the others have said, trying a new PSU may also be a good option. Consider it an investment. If it works - then problem solved. If it doesn't, then you keep it as a spare for future troubleshooting or builds.

Having spare parts for troubleshooting is imperative for PC buffs; otherwise we would all dpend on PC Shops for problem diagnosis.

Also there is nothing hard about replacing a PSU. You just unplug the old one, pull it out, and plug in the new one. In most instances, there are only four screws attaching it to the case.

Ideally you should get an Enermax PSU but these are very expensive in the UK. If you can't afford an Enermax, then a "reasonable" second, inexpensive second option is "Macron". These seem to be more plentiful in the UK (I assume you're in the UK because you mentioned Quid). You should be able to pick up a 300 or 400Watt Micron for £20-25.

However, if you would rather take the PC to Shop, then find a better and more helpful shop. There are plenty of good, local PC shops around who won't take you for a ride. Ask around locally and find out who has a good reputation.

HTH

[dredg]

Just to let those who are interested know that i fixed my PC the day before it was due to go back for 30 quid. Turns out i had the sdram frequency in my BIOS set to 100 when i use pc133. Can anyone explain this ? Whats the diference in order to make a machine crash or not to crash. ?

Either way im over the moon. :-)

[glc]

Seems to me that this would make it more rather than less stable - just goes to prove that when it comes to PC Chips, anything is possible..........

[Computer Hobbyist]

I hope you did fix the problem, but I doubt it. It is my understanding that PC133 can be used instead of PC100 without any change in the bios.

I suspect you will find that the problem will start up again in a few days. Let us know if it does.

Also I if I am wrong about PC133 ram, would somebody tell me why? I'd really like to know.

CH

[RenegadeKing]

Yea, I've got PC133 RAM running at 100 mhz just fine in a celeron system I built resently. My question is, can I run the CPU FSB at 100 mhz, and the RAM at 133 mhz?

[ATX Fiend]

not sure that's the real solution considering 'backwards compatibility.'

if anything, 133 should be able to run 133 and or 100. 100 should not be running 133 (not well at least).

but if it works it works.

[glc]

RK: It depends on your motherboard. If the bios supports asynchronous ram timing, yes, you can run the ram at "host clock + 33".

[dredg]

Ok, you were all right, and i was being far too optimistic, but the problems has got alot better since doing it.

Ive only had two crashes in 10 hours which for me is a miracle.

I guess this rules out power supply faults ? What the hell can it be, ive tried everything under the sun.

[mike breck]

Well lets go back to Cricket's overheating scenario again. Can you go into the BIOS and find the temp monitor. Monitor the CPU and mobo temps for thirty minutes (just stay in the BIOS and watch the temps) and then report them here.

[dredg]

Hello Mike, thanks for replying.

Been in there a while and the temperature hovered around 45'c.

Never went higher than 46'c.

[RenegadeKing]

Originally posted by dredg OK , checked my power supply and all it said was 300atx on the side so i guess this isnt much help.

No other markings? No brandname?

Did you try disabling the onboard sound or modem?

You could also try going into the bios and loading the defaults. Maybe there is some setting that is set wrong for your hardware and making the computer unstable.

If it's a hardware problem I say it's either the motherboard or power supply. If you can, try replacing one of them to see if it fixes the problem.

HTH

RenegadeKing

[dredg]

Hello RenegadeKing,

No theres no other markings, just that.

Irecently flashed the BIOS to the newest version to see if that wud help, it never.

Ive disabled everything also, even not installed the drivers from the manufacturers CD, to no avail.

I agree with you about either the power supply or mobo, but ive been using this computer allnight without a crash now, a couple of days ago it wud have crashed every twenty minutes, thats why im unsure.

Thanks for your help.

[mike breck]

Does it clearly state that 45c is the CPU temp? What is the mobo or system temp?

If it's not clear, could you list all the temps showing after 30 mins.

Also I think you must try another PSU. It's the only way to eliminate it as the source of the problem.

[RayH]

dredg First, let me say I appreciate your posting back on what you did and apparently what results you are getting. It helps us all.

About backwards compatibilty of RAM, most of the times it is, sometimes it's not. I had an FIC 503+ motherboard that didn't like PC133 SDRAM. It crashed all the time.

[dredg]

Hi Mike,

Today my CPU temp was 41'c-42'c but ithas not been on as long as yesterday.
The system temp was 33'c-36'c.

I want to try another PSU, but the only way is too buy one, and this is risky as im a student and this is only a possible solution. However the place i got it should get this if they test like they say they do.

Thanks for the reply.

@ RayH, I appreciate your comments aswell, posting back my results is the only way too help you techies figure out a solution, even though its a zillion times harder in cyberspace than 'real-life' to diagnose a problem, especially one with so many possiblities. My system is back to crashing all the time so i guess it wasnt what i'd hoped.

Thanks for the reply.

[DickD]

I have been chasing a problem similar to yours for the last month or so.
Turned out that my 4 month old IBM 40 gb hard drive finally failed yesterday.
It finally would not find the drive on bootup. I ran the IBM drive fitness test supplied with the drive on a floppy and it
came up with a code to use for returning the drive.
If you have such a disk that came with your hard drive you might include that in your tests