America, America, land of the free

[Toaster]

Hello folks,
While my previous statement was somewhat misleading as being a "primary" reason, it is a reason none the less. Aiding Isreal was simply the straw that broke the camels back. It still boils down to religious persecution.

At any rate, on my drive to work today, I saw countless Americans waving our flag and proclaiming something the rest of the world cannot: "I am an American"
With this, all offered condolences and a warning:
"When the shock of this cowardly act lessens, America will seek blood, the blood of the terrorists the world over. Leave no stone unturned, leave no doubt in the eyes of the world, America will finnish this fight once and for all."


To this bin laden turd I have only this to say:
Sleep tight in knowing your days are numbered and all those that may follow in your footsteps. Your God forsake you. See you in hell.

[Paul Victorey]

Actually, Toaster, I think the reasons are reversed from what you say. People very often tend to use religion as a justification for their own personal agendas, but the agendas are usually the reason for the act. The anger with the US began FIRST because of the role we played in keeping the Israelis in power, and they used their religion to justify it.

A good analogy would be the Crusades -- in a large part (in fact, almost in entirety) their goal was to increase the power and influence of the Roman Catholic church. The justification was religious.

And, there are really only a few groups of people (a minority of Muslims) which even feel that way. These groups base their ideas on an insanely strict reading of the Koran, and are analagous to the ultra-right wing Christians we have here -- a very vocal but relatively small percentage of the population. Most Muslims have no problems at all with Christians or members of other religions.

[Gintaras]

Begin- former terrorist,
Sharon- suspect and being investigated for war crimes.

If it's ok to support Israel, then...

[WNeill]

I can understand what Paul is saying but vengence is an inherint part of human nature, whether we like to admit it or not. Political astuteness, and political correctness, are thing we humans are still coming to terms with. I think it is essential that the US and others keep a presence in the Middle-East as the aim of Bin-Laden and others is to inflict their warped kind of fundamentalist Ismamic belief on the whole of the area. Imagine Bin-Laden in control of a huge proportion of the world's oil reserves? Let's remember folks although the vast majority of the innocents murdered In New York, Washington DC and Pennsylvania were American citizens there were approx. 200-500 British casualties and many hundreds, if not thousands, from at least 21 other nations. This was definately an attack on the free world and as such I hope the nations of the world get behind the US in dispensing "justice". Let's hope that it is not left to the US and the UK to to actually do all the combata, has happened in the past.

[Paul Victorey]

Originally posted by WNeill I can understand what Paul is saying but vengence is an inherint part of human nature, whether we like to admit it or not. Political astuteness, and political correctness, are thing we humans are still coming to terms with. I think it is essential that the US and others keep a presence in the Middle-East as the aim of Bin-Laden and others is to inflict their warped kind of fundamentalist Ismamic belief on the whole of the area. Imagine Bin-Laden in control of a huge proportion of the world's oil reserves? Let's remember folks although the vast majority of the innocents murdered In New York, Washington DC and Pennsylvania were American citizens there were approx. 200-500 British casualties and many hundreds, if not thousands, from at least 21 other nations. This was definately an attack on the free world and as such I hope the nations of the world get behind the US in dispensing "justice". Let's hope that it is not left to the US and the UK to to actually do all the combata, has happened in the past.

Well, saying vengeance is "human nature" is no excuse. Everyone has violent urges, everyone has dark thoughts or ideas, but we control them, and control ourselves. If we are ruled by our passions we are only animals, and an animal is quite easy for a rational man to manipulate or defeat.

I agree, we should punish the guilty, but we must look at the situation logically, instead of acting without thinking.

And, Bin Laden's goal was to usurp the throne of Saudi Arabia; his new goal is to attack the US because they prevented him from succeeding, which ultimately cost him the majority of his assets (he was worth some $300 million or such once) and got him exiled from his country. Bin Laden himself is not a religious fanatic, he's a power-hungry former resistance fighter. He may recruit religious fanatics, but you'd never see HIM on a suicide mission. He, really, could probably care less about religion, except that it has proved a useful tool to him to get recruits and money. Religion has often been the tool used by powerful men to control their people.

Now, distinctions like this may seem like splitting hairs, but it is critical that we realize the situation as it is, and acknowledge our opponents are human, with human emotions and human logic guiding their actions. Only by understanding the enemy, by understanding their goals, by understanding ther methods, and by understanding their origins can we ever hope to defeat them. If we don't understand a situation, if we don't pay attention to the dynamics and details of a population, we can find ourselves in far worse situations than we're in now.

[WJWheels]

The fact remains that this was an insane barbaric act. It had no hope whatsoever in getting Palestinians what they've always claimed they want, whether it's rightful or not. Palestine claims to want ONLY a land to call their own... a reclamation of what Jews/Zionists took from them. Of course what they want MUST also include a major part of Jerusalem - not negotiable with Israel. In reality the Jews purchased this land from Arabs, who "registered" it as theirs way back when. The Jews then began the removal of Palestinians from their "new" homeland. There's no way blowing up U.S. buildings and killing citizens of the world could in any way serve that end.

The perpetrators also had no reason to believe that this act even tenfold would cause the U.S/Israel (I'm sure the radical Islamic sees us as one) to roll over and play dead. If they've got the brains to execute a deed such as this, then they have the brains to know it would only serve to anger the entire free world and there'd be retribution and then some.

No, it's got nothing to do with religion or territory rights... it's only a game that poor, nothing-else-to-live-for barbarions get a rise out of. I wonder how many Muslims were also killed in this act.

Some of the terrorists were last seen in a Daytona titty bar getting drunk... certainly both activities in direct conflict with their religious teachings. It's plain this was ONLY a crime against humanity and nothing more. These people and those that harbor/support them deserve to and must be exterminated for the good of the entire planet.

[Gintaras]

Originally posted by mairving Troy, you might as well quit your rant against Israel. The US will always be allies with Israel.

Mairving with all the respect to you,

Is this support to terrorists:
Begin is well known terrorist,
Sharon- suspect and being investigated for war crimes.
Make no mistake- September 11th happened because of what you're willing to support.

Not taking this personally, but here in NY 1000's who suffering from Act Of War.

Personally, I'm in NY, about 1hr. from NYC, I worked in NYC, 5 weeks ago I was on the top of WTC.

Do you understand what your support for war criminals and terorrists might mean?

[Paul Victorey]

Originally posted by WJWheels The fact remains that this was an insane barbaric act. It had no hope whatsoever in getting Palestinians what they've always claimed they want, whether it's rightful or not. Palestine claims to want ONLY a land to call their own... a reclamation of what Jews/Zionists took from them. Of course what they want MUST also include a major part of Jerusalem - not negotiable with Israel. In reality the Jews purchased this land from Arabs, who "registered" it as theirs way back when. The Jews then began the removal of Palestinians from their "new" homeland. There's no way blowing up U.S. buildings and killing citizens of the world could in any way serve that end. The perpetrators also had no reason to believe that this act even tenfold would cause the U.S/Israel (I'm sure the radical Islamic sees us as one) to roll over and play dead. If they've got the brains to execute a deed such as this, then they have the brains to know it would only serve to anger the entire free world and there'd be retribution and then some. No, it's got nothing to do with religion or territory rights... it's only a game that poor, nothing-else-to-live-for barbarions get a rise out of. I wonder how many Muslims were also killed in this act. Some of the terrorists were last seen in a Daytona titty bar getting drunk... certainly both activities in direct conflict with their religious teachings. It's plain this was ONLY a crime against humanity and nothing more. These people and those that harbor/support them deserve to and must be exterminated for the good of the entire planet.

Where did you hear the Jews bought Israel?? It's completely untrue.

Pre-WW1, Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire. During WW1, Britain began negotiating with the Arabs (to incite the Arabs against the Turks who had allied with Germany), and afterwards, when the Ottoman Empire fell, they ended up ruling Palestine. The Palestinians rebelled against them (circa 1936-39) but were put down by the British. After WW2, in 1947, the newly formed United Nations ruled that Palestine be partitioned into two parts; the Zionists agree on the idea but not the boundaries, the Palestinians do not recognize the UN's authority to split the country. The UN quickly withdraws, and the US pretty much remains the only nation to support Israel through the 6 or so wars they fight with their neighbors.

And, actually, the terrorists probably WANT us to openly attack them. Right now, the Arab world is far from unified -- many of their leaders are on the verge of conceding peace with Israel, and the popular support for continuing fighting just isn't there. Even the Palestinians in Israel, who have been kept with almost no civil rights for 50 years, are talking about peace. And the rest of the Arab world is as sick of conflict as they. So, those who still want war will try to get the attention of the US, and try to get us to attack them. They feel if we attack them, and kill a lot of innocents in the Arab nations, that the nations will polarize against us, that the governments which support us will be swept away by an uprising of the people.

And, Bin Laden isn't Palestinian, he's a Saudi. Although many of his terrorist organizations fight on behalf of the Palestinians, they themselves aren't Palestinian nor do they necessarily have the same agendas as Palestinian leaders. Most are Saudi, Pakistani, Egyptian, and Afghani, I believe.

[WJWheels]

Originally posted by Paul Victorey Where did you hear the Jews bought Israel?? It's completely untrue.

How did land ownership traditionally work in Palestine and when did it change?

"[The Ottoman Land Code of 1858] required the registration in the name of individual owners of agricultural land, most of which had never previously been registered and which had formerly been treated according to traditional forms of land tenure, in the hill areas of Palestine generally masha'a, or communal usufruct. The new law meant that for the first time a peasant could be deprived not of title to his land, which he had rarely held before, but rather of the right to live on it, cultivate it and pass it on to his heirs, which had formerly been inalienable...Under the provisions of the 1858 law, communal rights of tenure were often ignored...Instead, members of the upper classes, adept at manipulating or circumventing the legal process, registered large areas of land as theirs...The fellahin [peasants] naturally considered the land to be theirs, and often discovered that they had ceased to be the legal owners only when the land was sold to Jewish settlers by an absentee landlord...Not only was the land being purchased; its Arab cultivators were being dispossessed and replaced by foreigners who had overt political objectives in Palestine."

Rashid Khalidi, "Blaming The Victims," ed. Said and Hitchens

But to go on further......

Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present).

The Arab community, as it became increasingly aware of the Zionists' intentions, strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying because it posed a real and imminent danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine. Because of this opposition, the entire Zionist project never could have been realized without the military backing of the British. The vast majority of the population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years)

In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn't matter. The Arabs' opposition to Zionism wasn't based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people.

------------------------------------

As I previously said, who rightfully belongs in Palestine really has nothing to do with this barbaric act. It serves no purpose whatsoever other than the destruction of property and humanity. It's a crime of the highest degree.

[Paul Victorey]

Originally posted by WJWheels How did land ownership traditionally work in Palestine and when did it change? "[The Ottoman Land Code of 1858] required the registration in the name of individual owners of agricultural land, most of which had never previously been registered and which had formerly been treated according to traditional forms of land tenure, in the hill areas of Palestine generally masha'a, or communal usufruct. The new law meant that for the first time a peasant could be deprived not of title to his land, which he had rarely held before, but rather of the right to live on it, cultivate it and pass it on to his heirs, which had formerly been inalienable...Under the provisions of the 1858 law, communal rights of tenure were often ignored...Instead, members of the upper classes, adept at manipulating or circumventing the legal process, registered large areas of land as theirs...The fellahin [peasants] naturally considered the land to be theirs, and often discovered that they had ceased to be the legal owners only when the land was sold to Jewish settlers by an absentee landlord...Not only was the land being purchased; its Arab cultivators were being dispossessed and replaced by foreigners who had overt political objectives in Palestine." Rashid Khalidi, "Blaming The Victims," ed. Said and Hitchens As I previously said, who rightfully belongs in Palestine really has nothing to do with this barbaric act. It serves no purpose whatsoever other than the destruction of property and humanity. It's a crime of the highest degree.

Well, Palestine WAS taken from the Arabs by the British.

At the time of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, there WERE many Jews in the area that would eventually become Israel, and many Jewish landowners, but they did not form Israel themselves; Israel was formed 30some years after all this happened.

As to it being a crime, of course it is, and nobody has the right to kill others, but yet it happens. In all likelihood, the whole attack was designed to provoke us into open warfare with at least one Arab nation, to the benefit of the anti-American radicals.

[WJWheels]

Originally posted by Gintaras Begin is well known terrorist

Kindly expand on your statement Gintaras....

[Gintaras]

Try here:
Jewish Terrorists

[WJWheels]

Well, I see no link there for Menachem Begin, but I assume you're referring to his actions re: Deir Yassin in conjuction with Plan Dalet. Depending on one's perspective, I guess he certainly could be considered a terrorist as well as merely a soldier carrying out an order.

Thanks for the prompt reply...

btw - The site you link to, Jew Watch, is hardly an objective source of information.

[Gintaras]

Originally posted by WJWheels Well, Depending on one's perspective, I guess he certainly could be considered a terrorist as well as merely a soldier carrying out an order. Thanks for the prompt reply...

With respect to you,

don't you feel ashamed before 1000's of killed in an Act Of War with your message?

I would.
Do you have any respect do those who died, to those who lost loved ones?

[Gintaras]

Originally posted by WJWheels Depending on one's perspective, I guess he certainly could be considered a terrorist as well as merely a soldier carrying out an order. Thanks for the prompt reply...

You meant that jewish terrorists different than any others?

Now, you explain this.

[WJWheels]

Originally posted by Gintaras With respect to you, don't you feel ashamed before 1000's of killed in an Act Of War with your message? I would. Do you have any respect do those who died, to those who lost loved ones?

I truly have no idea what you're talking about... nor what you meant in your reply to Mairving.

[WNeill]

Originally posted by Paul Victorey Well, saying vengeance is "human nature" is no excuse. Everyone has violent urges, everyone has dark thoughts or ideas, but we control them, and control ourselves. If we are ruled by our passions we are only animals, and an animal is quite easy for a rational man to manipulate or defeat. I agree, we should punish the guilty, but we must look at the situation logically, instead of acting without thinking. And, Bin Laden's goal was to usurp the throne of Saudi Arabia; his new goal is to attack the US because they prevented him from succeeding, which ultimately cost him the majority of his assets (he was worth some $300 million or such once) and got him exiled from his country. Bin Laden himself is not a religious fanatic, he's a power-hungry former resistance fighter. He may recruit religious fanatics, but you'd never see HIM on a suicide mission. He, really, could probably care less about religion, except that it has proved a useful tool to him to get recruits and money. Religion has often been the tool used by powerful men to control their people. Now, distinctions like this may seem like splitting hairs, but it is critical that we realize the situation as it is, and acknowledge our opponents are human, with human emotions and human logic guiding their actions. Only by understanding the enemy, by understanding their goals, by understanding ther methods, and by understanding their origins can we ever hope to defeat them. If we don't understand a situation, if we don't pay attention to the dynamics and details of a population, we can find ourselves in far worse situations than we're in now.

Please do not mis-understand me, I concur with you that we must fully understand the whole background to these problems in order to even attempt to solve them. But as you already know, and can see from some comments in this posting, it is very difficult to get the opposing sides to agree on any fundamental truths as to the historic and indeed present facts. I would also say that vegeance needs no "excuse" as it is simply "punishment or retribution for a wrong-doing or injury"(Oxford Eng. Dictionary) and I think Tuesday's act fits that criteria. This vengeance must of course be directed at the correct "wrong-doers" that is why I am thankful that the authorities seem to be taking their time in gathering as much evidence as possible before anything is done.

[Jomama]

..and the beatings will continue until morale improves!

[Jade]

Originally posted by Gintaras Bin Laden as/if you know was targeted once in Afganistan. Result of that strike-a few innocent people dead. Outcome of that strike- TUESDAY MORNING!!! Not long ago in NYC were sentenced a few terrorists. Outcome- TUESDAY MORNING!!! Clinton did strike at Iraq/Sadam. Outcome of that strike- TUESDAY MORNING!!!.

if Clinton did nothing you would still be complaining either way...


The fact is we have been at war with the terrorists of the Middle East for a long time... [-modified covered above-]. Every thing else that came later is just an escalation on thier part.

___________
There MUST be VERY PRECISSION INVESTIGATION and VERY PRECISSION PREPARATION to strike at Bin Laden and other MAIN terrorist organizations. If Bin Laden is a dekoy and behind him is foreign goverment- to strike at that country(just not like was done with Iraq). But there have to be VERY PRECISSION(110%) Preparation. It may take months.
___________

I would agree with you here but for different reasons. I would let Bin Laden live and kill everyone around him. Especially the Tailban! Take away his Martyr status if we do kill him hang him upside down naked.

Suppose we pull out of Isreal? what do you think would happen?
[B]

[Jade]

Originally posted by Toaster The reasons "why" the US is disliked by so many in the mid-east is nothing short of fanatical. Thier "primary" reasons are: 1. Our women dress like whores. In thier culture(s), women are treated as animals and are to be fully clad in clothing when in public. No skin, no face, no talking. 2. The US doen`t "bay and howl" towards "Mecca" as they do. The bottom line is quite simple, "religious prosecution". We don't worship or believe in the same fashion that they do and thier aim is to change that. It's the same story told over and over through human history "religious beliefs". However, in the middle east, "thier" God deserves violence, bloodshed, murder. These fanatics need to be treated much as they are, a simple infection in the human race. Slap them down very hard and give them this warning: "Any type of violence directed toward the United States, or it's citizens, either here or abroad, from ANY country that either hires or harbors persons commiting such acts will be delt with in the most harsh mannor imaginable. This includes any American interests of any and all types" "We want blood!" proclaimed by millions of Americans.

Are you sure??? Reruns of Baywatch is pretty popular over there. More popular than news

[Jade]

Originally posted by Smoke24 Had the U.S. not sided with Israel and Saudi that entire region of the world would have ended up under the control of Iran and Iraq who were at the same time being funded and supplied with military hardware by the Soviets. It was almost a given that the U.S. had to befriend those countries and supply them with equal or greater military might. If all there were left to the Soviet Union it would be that they would have controlled about 70% of the worlds oil supplies and your gasoline might cost so much you would even need anything that would burn it. The Soviets would have then become the only economic power in the entire world and their military control would have spread over the world at an unbelievable pace. I agree that every war has begun over cultural differences and it will probably always be that way. We need to do what is required to protect our culture of freedom as we know it. If that means to supply the military of countires like Israel and Saudi, so be it. Another thing to consider is that many of the companies here that build military hardware have sold to those countries with our governments blessing and brought some of that oil money back here and created jobs for our citizens in the process.

Actually we supplied Iraqi with weapons and funding for 11 years. I thought you said you were in the military???

Once again from a military point of view; can't you see Saudi is next to go in a possible civil war? Yet we are going to arm them too? they are also in debt. Do you support funding them as well?

[mairving]

Gintaras, I would try to argue with you but you are sounding a bit too much like Sadaam Hussein in your incoherence. It sounds like you are blaming me or Begin or anyone else but the terrorists for what took place this week. Begin, a terrorist, eh? How many people has he murdered through car bombs, hijacked planes, etc? The answer is 0. It is beside the point anyway. Even if he was a terrorist, doesn't make him one now. We support Arafat now, who has been a terrorist that has murdered innocents.

But getting back to the point. The point is that terrorists attacked our country. They did it without provocation from us. One can try to blame others or bad policies but the same answer is given that we are not to blame, the people that did this are. Bin Laden has said that he took up this campaign against us because we had troops in his country. Well these troops were invited into his country by his countrymen. If we would have said no to defending Saudi Arabia, he probably would have used that as his excuse.

[WNeill]

Originally posted by Jade Actually we supplied Iraqi with weapons and funding for 11 years. I thought you said you were in the military??? Once again from a military point of view; can't you see Saudi is next to go in a possible civil war? Yet we are going to arm them too? they are also in debt. Do you support funding them as well?

When the US supplied Iraq with arms it was in return for oil, Suppling the Saudis with arms is so that the US has a foothold in the area which is drowning in oil too. Let us also remember that every country in the world is in debt and America has one of largest debts outside of the third world countries. That's just the way the world works. Although I would say that the US is owed more money than anybody else. For centuries the dominant country(empire) in the world has armed various countries to fight it's neighbour. The reasons have always been selfish. The Romans done it, Britain done it and now the US does it. America must now show the world that it will not be pushed around. Personally I think America will rise to this challenge and after all is said and done the US will have tightened it's grip on it's place in history and hopefully begin the process of ridding the world of some of the most dangerous factions in the world.

[Jade]

That's great but the point I was making was in light of 'Smokes' point that the Soviet Union was supplying Iran and Iraq to take over Saudi Arabia and Israel. I know what we did and the politics behind it and it probably was right at the time. JUST as it seems right at the time now to arm Saudi and a possible Alliedship with Pakistan.

However just a thought:
If more radical muslims take over Saudi Arabia; that arming 'them' will have meant arming a possible anti-american muslim country. And befriending Pakistan (becoming thier allies) will become "sleeping with the enemy' in India's eyes ( which has nuclear capabilities which I am pretty sure everyone here knows).

I am still for, actually blowing Bin Laden and his buddies out of thier holes but just keep in mind this may cost us allies and even more hard feelings.

[SARGE]

The US of A had Laden as our "CIA boy" in Afghanistan. He also has/had his money in the World Capital Bank in New York. Seems we choose bad friends.