CNN Arab footage fake??

[Paul Victorey]

I've seen an (unconfirmed) report from a news source which stated that the widely shown footage of Arabs celebrating in the streets was actually stock footage taken during the Gulf War, and was originally aired a decade ago.

I'm not sure WHAT to think about this -- if CNN *is* in fact lying about the footage they're presenting (or if whatever source gave CNN the footage lied about it) then I'm quite upset that people would be trying to manipulate the news... yet more reasons why you can't believe all that you see on TV, I guess.

[dan3223]

Yup, I've been hearing all over the place that it was indeed footage taken back in 1991.

[archie]

No doubt that there will be false information provided ... no matter the circumtances. If indeed this fact were true, it would be a reason to be very concerned. Time will tell. I trust that the footage was shot before the collapse of the two buildings.

[troysvihl]

it certainly wouldn't be the first time that the major media has deliberatly falsified it's reporting.

I remember, right before Dessert Shield, that idiot Dem. Senator Wellstone held a rally on the U of Minn campus to show that people didn't want Pres Bush to go after Iraq. The Minneapolis Star Tribune's coverage of it said that there was a few thousand people in attendance. Well I was walking past that rally several times during that day, and maybe at the height of it, there was about 25 people there in support of Wellstone's position. (There were several hundred students off to the side heckeling and jeering them though. But even combined, there was no more than a few hundred.) The newspaper deliberatly falsified the number of people there and didn't even mention that there was way more people protesting the protest. (Then when Sen Wellstone and Sen Kerry from Mass. had their little tempertantrum on the Senate floor during the begging of Desert Storm, they pointed to that article and claimed that thousands of their constituents showed up in support for not attacking Iraq)

My supervisor at 3M said that when he was attending the U of Minn back during the Vietnam war, there was a anti-War protest held on the campus, and there was maybe 50 people protesting the war. But the newspaper and nightly news reported that there were 15,000 people protesting!

[Paul Victorey]

Actually, the footage almost MUST be fake.

* The second plane hit the WTC at 9:03 AM. This is the first indication that this is part of a terrorist attack, and so this is the first chance anyone has to see the news on TV.

* 9:03 AM in New York works out to be 6:03 PM in some of the Middle East, and 5:03 PM in other parts.

* If the footage was taken at the same longitude as Islamabad, it would be approximately 12 minutes until sunset when the second plane hit. If the footage was taken at the same longitude as Jerusalem, it would be about 2.5 hours until sunset when the second plane hit.

* I am not sure when the broadcasting of the tragedy on CNN began, but it is reasonable to assume that CNN takes at least a little time to get news on the air, and that it also takes a large group of people a certain amount of time for this information to become known by a large number of people. And, the early reports of the tragedy were inaccurate, it was only when multiple crashes happened that it even began being considered terrorism. So any celebration would probably occur, at soonest, an hour after the second plane hits -- that gives CNN the time to broadcast to the world that there's been a terrorist attack, and gives the Arabs the time to hear about it.

So, the footage, if genuine, would HAVE to be in the very late evening, even assuming that the footage was far enough west, and people responded quickly enough to get their cheering done in the 1 hour time frame that would be between the news of the attack and sunset. The footage appears to be midday, which would mean it MUST have been taken before the planes hit the WTC at all. The footage could not possibly have been from Afghanistan nor any of the eastern parts of the Middle East, and even assuming it was from the west leaves only the narrowest window of opportunity, and the lighting of the footage appears not to be consistent with the time window that it could have been shot in.

[WJWheels]

I very much hope it is fake. That disturbed me very much that innocent children could be taught to hate so much that they celebrate ruthless murder of innocent people of all faiths and nationalities - even some of their own.

[archie]

You bring forth some interesting points [in reference to the timezone] there Paul. What a disapointment it would be if this was some type of propaganda. Would the lighting in that country be as it was at the time that it was shown?

[archie]

If shadows are shown and the location of the buildings in the background is known, it would be one way to confirm this.

[archie]

http://www.worldtimeserver.com/
Pakistan from the left frame.
Let's get to the facts.
at about 10:00 a.m. here, what time is it there?

[WJWheels]

10am NYC = 5pm Jerusalem - Today's sunset.

[bob]

About 4-5pm in Israel. (9-10am in NY) In summer the sun is still quite high in the sky at that time. Shadows of people could give two possible times without knowing direction - Am or Pm time.
Seems possible but actually hope it is fake.

[archie]

From the facts provided thus far, it appears to be accurate ... kids being out of school et all.

[Floppyman]

Hmmm I don't know. I actually saw a pic in the paper the day after of people celebrating, so I don't really know, maybe that picture was fake too?. But I agree with you, you can't believe everything you see on TV.

[Paul Victorey]

Originally posted by bob About 4-5pm in Israel. (9-10am in NY) In summer the sun is still quite high in the sky at that time. Shadows of people could give two possible times without knowing direction - Am or Pm time. Seems possible but actually hope it is fake.

Well, sunset is at 6:45ish PM in Israel, at the moment. So 4-5 PM is an hour to 2.75 hours from sunset, as mentioned. The sun would be pretty much as it is here 1-2.75 hours pre-sunset, albeit slightly higher in the sky due to the more southern latitude. And the 2.75 hours would require the celebration take place simultaneous with the second crash, so it's much more reasonable to assume there would only be a 2 hour window, tops.

At the time the footage first aired in the US, it was past sunset in all the Mideast. The facts about sunset and the local times in Jerusalem and Islamabad (which I used as my western and eastern bounds for calculations) were taken from www.timeanddate.com .

And Floppy, are you sure the pic you saw wasn't just a frame out of the video? I mean, it's obvious that it wasn't a film picture, simply because you can't develop film and get it overseas in that time, especially with planes not running into the US. So it was either a frame out of the video, or it was a pic taken on a digital camera and sent through some communications channel to the paper. Given that the medcia loves to use each others' footage, you may well have been looking at a picture taken from the same video now being called into suspicion.

[Jade]

Quite possible it wasn't fake as another reporter interviewed a man whose house was just bombed by the Israelies and he said he wished there was more carnage in the states. Although there was another man who jumped in from the side and debated with him.

[Toaster]

Hi folks,
Wow, consider the implications of such a scam. The United States going to war over footage thats 10 years old.
Iv'e seen many a "glorified" reporting style but this has far reaching implications. I'm fairly sure that is in fact it WERE fake, our Government would have caught onto it and informed us and CNN would be hung by thier collective "buster Browns". To enrage the American peoples for press "grandure" would be the immediate demise of CNN.

[SARGE]

Me being a conspiracy freak, I'd believe it. Think about it - EVERYTHING you see and hear on the boob box is controlled by someone who SELECTS what they want YOU to see/hear. Control the media, you control folk's thoughts and opinions.

[Toaster]

Hello folks,
Just think, Sarge was sent to PC-Mech by a covert government organization to help enforce our feelings on the matter by having Sarge suggest the footage is a hoax.
Now, we Americans cannot discern whats accurate and whats not.
This covert organization is using Sarge to aide in the destruction of CNN for giving Saddam INDEPTH strike information during "desert storm".
Now, Americas enemies would have to use other news media agencies for targeting and strike confirmation.

(hows that for a conspiracy Sarge?)

PS. Obviously you are paid well for your governmental deeds. Would you mind giving me a timeline when the organization will focus its efforts on Micky$oft?

[WJWheels]

Originally posted by SARGE Me being a conspiracy freak, I'd believe it. Think about it - EVERYTHING you see and hear on the boob box is controlled by someone who SELECTS what they want YOU to see/hear. Control the media, you control folk's thoughts and opinions.

Aha!! You show you're in Texas Sarge, but just tell me... what time is it where you are????

[mairving]

It may have been fake or misinformation. There has been a great deal of misinformation this week. You know you hear how 5 firemen were pulled from a Volvo, er, Chevy Suburban on all the news stations. Then breaking word that 10 policemen are trapped under the rubble. One is in contact with his wife. On that fateful Tuesday, we heard that the state dept was carbombed. We hear that ten people were arrested in NYC with boxcutters, etc. Then you see Afghanistan under attack. The reporter there incorrectly indentifies cruise missles. I also heard on Tuesday that several other planes had been hijacked out of Cleveland and that one was still on the ground. I have begun not to believe anything that has been reported until it has been verfied and 12 hours have gone by. I really doubt that CNN would deliberately show false pictures. I haven't seen any sources at all that could verify any of the fake claims. It could be an attempt for the Palestians to save some face. I had heard that when the people were celebrating in the streets that Palestians were trying to stop the cameramen from filming. Of course, some Palestians did indeed celebrate as reported by the AP.

[Paul Victorey]

Originally posted by Toaster Hello folks, Just think, Sarge was sent to PC-Mech by a covert government organization to help enforce our feelings on the matter by having Sarge suggest the footage is a hoax. Now, we Americans cannot discern whats accurate and whats not. This covert organization is using Sarge to aide in the destruction of CNN for giving Saddam INDEPTH strike information during "desert storm". Now, Americas enemies would have to use other news media agencies for targeting and strike confirmation. (hows that for a conspiracy Sarge?) PS. Obviously you are paid well for your governmental deeds. Would you mind giving me a timeline when the organization will focus its efforts on Micky$oft?

Hehe, funny you should mention CNN during the Gulf War, Toaster, because CNN worked *with* the US government to deliberately give false reports on attacks, because Saddam was using CNN as one means of gathering intelligence. CNN gave strike details, but in many cases, they deliberately mislead the enemy by giving incorrect reports.

Now, on one hand, that's all well and good to feed misinformation to the enemy, but on the other, how are WE supposed to trust the news that is directed at US is accurate?

[Paul Victorey]

Originally posted by SARGE Me being a conspiracy freak, I'd believe it. Think about it - EVERYTHING you see and hear on the boob box is controlled by someone who SELECTS what they want YOU to see/hear. Control the media, you control folk's thoughts and opinions.

Yes, this IS a real danger, and it's made worse by the fact that there IS no way to stop bias in media.

Every entity, be they an individual or a collection of individuals, has SOME opinions and preconceived ideas. Those people/organizations involved in distributing media will, by necessity, color their stories in the light of their opinions. And *every* possible form of communication has this, not just what we'd consider "media". Every post by every person in this forum, and in all others, are colored by the poster's ideas. Every radio show, TV show, web site, etc. is ALL, to varying degrees, biased in some way.

Also, nobody can report ALL news, or even all news that pertains to one event. Even without falsifying ANYTHING, by selecting which parts of the story they report, and which they ignore, colors the story and biases it. The language they use to describe the event biases it. There are a million kinds of bias that can happen even with only reporting "facts".

I guess it is our duty as consumers of information, that we must always remain slightly skeptical about what we hear, and seek to understand how the information may be biased. This is one reason I always like to read about the same events from multiple points of view, rather than trust any single news source. For example, I like to listen to both a liberal and conservative point of view on an event, because the real truth of the matter usually lies between them.

Of course, even looking at multiple points of view won't help if all the sources are biased in the same direction, so it's often hard to get to ANY "truth of the matter" from media sources.

[SARGE]

Paul, very well written. I seem to get right to the point, but you say it better.

[Frey Grimrod]

Im glad I found some intelligent discussion on this topic. I can very easily believe that there was indeed celebration in many areas across the globe when we got hit. However the footage I saw of palestinians celebrating seemed to have something wrong with it right when I saw it Im not completly sure if it is false or not but I do question it. My favorite part is thinking about how it really could have been filmed at any time even right after a peace doctorin was sighned and all the media has to do is manipulate it to there whims and so many believe it without question. Also I found it hysterical that the footage I personally viewed was cut short right after two fingers forming what I know as a "Peace Sighn" came into view of the camera. The announcer immediatly states something along the lines of, "There we even see a V for Victory sighn being made." For some reason I doubt that a random young palestinian knows the english language well enough to make a V for Victory but I may be wrong.

[kraken]

When I saw the second plane crash into the second tower I was alarmed.

I saw the second tower fall (live), We had heard of father mike over here.

It is not just Americans that fell in this attack, the Australians have invoked the ANZUS treaty in support (we Have lost at least 90 people).

In fact there are very few corners of this world that have not suffered a loss.

The WTC was the WORLD Trade Centre and the people in it were definately the world.

Support your local muslim community as they are not the enemy.

Radicals are.

Ferarri's black nose cones and their lack of aqdvertising is a great honour.

I also feel for Alex Zenardi, a great driver and one who I hope will become greater than his accident.

Don't bomb for the hell of it but target those responsible. Colateral damage is not an option, after all the WTC could be seen as such in the right eyes.

Kill Bin Laden but do not hurt innocents.

You picked the prez, God help us all.

[WJWheels]

Originally posted by kraken Kill Bin Laden but do not hurt innocents. You picked the prez, God help us all.

hmmm... who would you prefer - a Clinton clone or cronie, who DID bomb innocents 3 years ago on the very day Monica was testifying re: zippergate? It was called a re-run of "Wag the Dog" at the time.

No - IMO, this strong president and his very experienced administration seems a much better choice to lead the U.S. in a matter such as this.

[troysvihl]

hmmm... who would you prefer - a Clinton clone or cronie, who DID bomb innocents 3 years ago on the very day Monica was testifying re: zippergate? It was called a re-run of "Wag the Dog" at the time.

Yeah, that attack was an attempt at distracting the public and it was painfully obvious. The facility was in fact an asprin factory, and the owners and survivors sued and won in US Fed Ct. We all got to foot the bill for that "was the dog."

[WJWheels]

http://www.snopes2.com/inboxer/outrage/cnn.htm

[kraken]

I didn't mention Bill.

[WJWheels]

No, I mentioned Bill, as an illustration (his crony) of the only other choice we had besides George. You did mention this however....

Originally posted by kraken Don't bomb for the hell of it but target those responsible. Colateral damage is not an option, after all the WTC could be seen as such in the right eyes. Kill Bin Laden but do not hurt innocents.

1. How could anything be seen as "colateral damage" in the WTC? What was the purpose of the strike other than murder of civilians? Was there "someone" they were after... therefore all other lives were "colateral damage"? Was there a military, political, or even retributive purpose?

2. Who are the innocents that the U.S. or allies may possibly hurt?