A Statement regarding 9.11.01

[Web Gecko]

I will never forget 9.11.01 as long as I live. In my memory it will be a day of madness and terrible human tragedy. This is what happens when humans let extreme and irrational thinking take hold. Inevitably innocent people get in the way and are killed. It is so sad to see children and very poor people become victims in all this. Anger and desire for revenge are understandable emotions in these circumstances but we need to try and stand back and not let our emotions cloud our objectivity. There is too much at stake !

Every life is precious. One life lost is a great tragedy. I am not ashamed of what my heart tells me. My tears also flowed for the ones lost in the WTC and the Pentagon and their families and the grief they still suffer. We have no choice but to stand against terrorism and the madness which it engenders in it's proponents.

We must also weigh the cost of any actions we decide to take. I will fight for and defend my loved ones, country and home as will any other man. I know that innocent people were targetted and killed on 9.11.01 purposely and that the allies are making every attempt to avoid innocent people in Afghanistan being hurt. We can also try to do more here. Of course I have seen the humanitarian aid and ration packs going into Afghanistan from the US.

I don't know how but we must try, there must be a way. We must try to educate such ignorant people as to the fallacies of so devaluing life. We value and respect life in western countries. Why can't we try some form of education even if it takes years. Would one life saved make it worthwhile ?

I think president Bush made a statement recently along the lines that,
"It's our time to do something about terrorism". I agree, something must be done
in a measured, intelligent, thorough and long term sense.
But can we afford to treat this as another war (it is a very different war I know) ? There is so much at stake. The religious complications alone and the stability of many middle east countries could hinge on the decisions/actions made here. This situation affects the whole world. THere is so much at stake.

It is time to look at how this situation could be turned around to bring all nations together not to drive them apart in further death, destruction, fear and mistrust.

It is our time, to both right wrongs and turn a new page over for all humanity,
a more cooperative, fairer and peaceful world. I know some will say dream on.
But if we do not believe in the future of our race and planet then what do we believe in ? Can we afford to give up and let this thing go sour. No we must always try and never give up ! Life is both short and precious.

yours truly

The Web Gecko

p.s. We have the chance to turn the pages over
we can write what we wanna write
we gotta make ends meet before we get much older

You're the voice try to understand it
make a noise and make it clear
We're not gonna sit in silence
We're not gonna live with fear !

John Farnham The Voice Australian Artist

[LawyerRon]

Web,
Well said. But the bottom line is this: it's us or them. They want to kill you too and everyone in Austrailia since you're all infidels too, ie, non-muslem. They won't tolerate your existence.

PS, We're sending our younger daughter to Mildura for six months as an exchange student.

[dead_eye]

Hey, they want to kill all western muslims too.

[bob]

I will pay for your trip to Iraq, Packistan, or the Afgaine wilds. All I ask is you wear a US or Ausie flag on your teashirt. You can make the flags just 1X1 inch and use all of the rest of the space for your peace messages.

[Gintaras]

I, as human being, was affected on 9/11 same way as our friend Web Gecko,
but...

...I can't understand why everyone wants to avoid roots of what happened on 9/11?

Ignorance?
Lack of education?
Lack of understanding politics?
Brainwashed?

Does something like this happen in let's say Sweden, Australia, France, Austria, too many too mention....

My answer: so-called "friends".

Now,
Do anyone here have "friends" who spy on you?[read: Pollard]
Do anyone here have "friends" who think you're lower class?[gentiles can't even judge "friends", gentiles are as 2nd class people comparing to "friends"- Your, not mine, "friends" thinks so]

Would you like to have "friends" like that? Rise your hands who'd like to have "friends" like that.

United States supports a State of some very well known terrorists too, plus this countries PM is a suspect of War Crimes by murdering 1000's of refugees [is investigated, but not indicted as of yet]. Do you support IT?
-------------------------------------------------------------

Peace can be achieved non-violent way.
Want explanation?
Depends what you choose- try from this:

1)I'm a native Lithuanian and Lithuania gained Independence in 1990. It was a cost[to gain an Independence] of 13 people crushed to death under Soviet Army tanks in a capitol Vilnius near TV Tower]. No one responded to violence with violence-no further violence, no more tears.

2)Chechnya wants an Independence from Russia. I think, I don't need here much explanation about what happens when you respond to violence with violence.
Isn't 1000's[or even 10,000's of] of dead from either side enough any explanation?

Now, my question, which option[1) or 2)] you would choose?

Or here kicks in very well know by me(maybe some others) American Mentality:
Everything happens somewhere else, everything happens with someone else?


Just some my thoughts about PEACE and other things.


"United We Should Stand".
We're not, if you look around carefully enough.

[Gintaras]

Originally posted by bob I will pay for your trip to Iraq, Packistan, or the Afgaine wilds. All I ask is you wear a US or Ausie flag on your teashirt. You can make the flags just 1X1 inch and use all of the rest of the space for your peace messages.

Way too cynical...

...and what about if I pay you for very same trip?

[Gintaras]

Would you mind to think about:

This is from ROYAL HUNT CD album FEAR from 1999[-note this!]:

Faces Of War

Runaway's free, enemy's found
I'm on the plane, but my heart's on the ground
frozen by fear, covered in snow
pounding away in despair but somehow I know
we'll never make it back- where do we go?

On top of the world I'm a king of the hill
I'm riding the wind and horses of steel
I'm one of a kind, just open your door
to one of the faces of war

Senses are dead, reason is gone
Why do i shoot , tell me, what have they done?
Innocent kid covered in blood
hredded to pieces and left in the mud
Now I know- we'll never make it back. Where do we go?

End of the road, back to the wall
I'm kicking the dust on the spot where I'll fall
Final command- crime in disguise
Second of pain and I'm closing my eyes- now you know
We're never coming back- it's time to go
---------------------

ROYAL HUNT:
Andre Andersen
Allan Sorensen
Steen Mogensen
John West
Jacob Kjaer

[Web Gecko]

I have to agree with LawyerRon. This does seem to be the bottom line here in the thinking of more than just one of the parties involved (us or them).
If we are thinking this way then they are probably also as well.

It is hard to understand and come to terms with thinking so extreme that engenders so much hate. And of course the desire to eridicate the other side is some sort of a solution ? I am not particularly concerned as to how I am perceived by others but then again I am no naive member of the Wonder Land peace corps either. There is nothing holy or glorious about war. War, like any other game played or battle fought produces relative winners and real losers.

Any winning outcome from war is bought with great loss of human life usually.
Most of us are fairly intelligent beings. We can use our intelligence to avoid loss of human life where possible. We all have to make choices and decide what is most important to us. I wonder how much we really value human life and what we have learnt from history. Is war more important to us ? How does that old saying go, "You don't know what you've got till it's gone". Perhaps we all need to gain an appreciation for what it means to be alive maybe then we will gain a little respect for the human state wherever it is found. If we have no appreciation of the value of life by now, I wonder how much longer we need.

It is true that the Islamic faith seems to engender extreme thinking but this is true of other systems of thought. Killing because you are jealous or have a grievance is also no solution. In this case the war on Terrorism is a bottom line practicality. We have no choice and we must stand together on this.
We also need to use discretion and intelligence as to the decisions and actions we make. This conflict has the potential for impact on a global scale if the US and it's Allies play their cards the wrong way. We cannot afford to inflame the whole Islamic world and drag everybody else in as well. A little diplomacy will help but we have to weigh priority and opportunity so it is not lost. So far the US administration has handled it's dealings with the Muslim world very intelligently. Not all Muslim people are necessarily as unbalanced in their thinking as the terrorits we are dealing with. Again I have also seen Islamic reaction to this conflict around the world. We need to think very carefully about what we do and how we proceed and how much time we may have.

My message to others who have posted on this thread is that there is always hope
as long as we maintain our perspective and apply our intelligence and resources well. I have hopes and dreams, expectations for the future like anybody else but I am also a realist. This is my bottom line. There is much injustice in this world. There is also good and bad. If there are problems then there are also solutions to be found. All we need to do is use our brains. We are too used to blaming others and putting the onus on them to produce the goods.

With this problem the buck stops with us ! So let's get off our butts, use our brains and cooperate on this. There is an important lesson here to be learnt that could also have global impact. This is a great opportunity for all the nations of the world to work together and learn how to contribute to each others' welfare. There are nations who have a history of contribution and there are others for whom it is high time. If we could motivate all nations to make some form of contribution to the affairs and wellbeing of other nations then how would this affect world affairs ? Would any perceptions change ? Would any barriers be broken down even a little ? Would this be a positive move that we could take forward into the future ? What do we really want to provide to children in third world countries ? Education and food or guns and ammunition ?

Dear Bob, your point about the 1x1 US and Ozzie flags is well taken.
If I went I would make them bigger for easier sighting ! I would also include the flags of other nations including Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan and whoever.
I would also scratch the peace corps messages. These people are not dumb and are not to be underestimated. Maybe we all need to learn a little more respect especially for things and people we don't understand. I submit this suggestion for your scrutiny. Perhaps the little respect we pay others and maybe a small contribution to their welfare may convince them that our motivations are not all bad.

With due respect for all

regards

The Web Gecko

p.s. Note to Lawyer Ron. I have travelled through Mildura (back in the 80s).
It is near the New South Wales , Victorian and South Australian borders
a ways west of the Riverina district (citrus growing area I think).
Adelaide and the Barossa valley nearby (wine growing area) are worth
a visit. Adelaide is a beautiful city with a feel not unlike Perth
(home). Melbourne, Victoria is an interesting place but the weather
is highly variable and generally lousy. Sydney is our big smoke and
where the action is (some beautiful features/spots in NSW).

Queensland, Cairns etc., and the Great Barrier Reef (and islands/resorts
along it's east coast) are said to be paradise like. I have not been there
myself. Then there's beautiful Perth, it's Swan River and the rest of
Western Australia, major gems in the Ozzie crown. Check out our
great South West, Broome up north (Darwin as well), the Kimberley
ranges, Kakadu and Uluru (Aire's Rock) in the Northern Territory
(tropical like Broome).

Any member of your family would be made welcome over here.
We would be happy to show you around Perth etc..
Feel free to get in touch through this forum or via my
email at markeastaugh@yahoo.com.au

chou

[LawyerRon]

Web G,
Thanks for the thoughtful info on Australia as well as your generous offer.

Now back to what this thread is about:

Quote:
"It is hard to understand and come to terms with thinking so extreme that engenders so much hate. And of course the desire to eridicate the other side is some sort of a solution ?"

The reason you, as well as most Americans, find it hard to understand, is because you are being "logical". You are applying logic to a set of facts and the answer is not computing. The problem with this kind of thinking is that our enemy uses "faith based" reasoning, not "logic based" like you and I. Therefore, they can justify anything, even murdering thousands of people, based on their "faith", however misguided this faith is. If you think of all this in those terms, it all makes sense in a twisted way.

[Web Gecko]

LawyerRon ,

Yes, I have to agree. Rational logic does not apply here.

There appear to be many twists and turns in the human psyche.
There are many possibilities when it comes to systems of thought.
Perhaps there is actually a twisted system of irrational logic at work here.

It is still incomprehensible to the mind how any of these terrorists
could consider they have the right to play God (so to speak) and take the
lives of so many. Whether you believe in a God or not and the other place,
they believe they are going to paradise. In reality they may be going straight to hell. At least this is what they leave behind them in their wake (the aftermath).

The whole deal smacks of the irrational and the obscene !

regards

The Web Gecko

United we should stand for the good of all

[bob]

//"Maybe we all need to learn a little more respect especially for things and people we don't understand"//

Perhaps. How do you spell Kum-bli-ah

[Web Gecko]

Yes I must agree that the complexity of the human psyche
tends to produce complicated systems of thought
especially when it comes to religion, emotions and the sometimes convoluted
sense of humour these different systems can produce.

Then again many people rely on a more direct sense of humour
and major in plain English.

Could you expand GAL for us ? Something some people need real bad.

I can recommend some time away from the WAN to GAL.

chou

The Web Gecko

[bob]

GAL - Generic Array Logic. Probably best discussed in the hardware or think tank forums. Just being a PAL

[Web Gecko]

Bob ,

Don't mind me mate. We are all very different even if there are some things we hold in common. People everywhere have different backgrounds, personalities and outlooks on things.

If there is anything in life besides life itself that I value it is my family and all the people in my life. I guess the Internet is kind of like a global community where people can communicate, share ideas and information and collaborate on things. Nomatter what our differences I think it is important to believe in and value people. You also have to be realistic as well and be aware of different belief systems. Naivette doesn't help.

This current sutuation has me fired up a bit I guess but I believe for good reason because the things I value most are threatened ! A sense of humour is a good thing as it can help us to chill out, step back from a tangled mess and put it into perspective. Humour is something we can use to maintain our objectivity and find the solutions we need.

As to GAL (Generic Array Logic), I hadn't heard of that one. Sounds like fairly exotic stuff like Fuzzy Logic or maybe PLA (Politely Ludicrous Announcement).
Yeah I think we should cross post this stuff to hardware or Think Tank.

chou

The Web Gecko

United we should stand for the good of all

[glc]

Let's not crosspost, please - this is a good discussion and let's just keep it in here.

[bob]

[Joke] It was I say [/Joke]
If there was some cross posting that would really be funny

[pcoopers]

This is an old thread, maybe I should let it lie.

But, just a few days after 9-11, maybe the 16th, I was driving through
Virginia, listening to some nameless preacher.

The point of his sermon was, we, as a nation, and as Christians, are crying and
weeping now, for out own. Further, we expect all the world to cry and weep for
us. But, how many tears have we shed for the rest of the world? The most
outrageous atrocities have been commited by Idi Amin Adada, Pol Pot, King
Hussein, involving the deaths of MILLIONS of people. These atrocities make
interesting filler near the bottom of page 25 in our local newspapers, usually
months or years after the fact.

The trade center is unique in two, and only two, respects. 1, it is the largest single calamity ever commited by such a small group of terrorists, and 2, it is the first time that foreign terrorists have launched a completely successful attack on American soil.

But the killing has been going on, is going on, all around us. In our own back
yard, representatives of the Mexican government are pursuing a policy of genocide, with a tribe of native Americans at the sharp end of the stick.
Do we notice?

Who is that dufous redneck, I hear him on the radio from time to time, his
byline is "Wake up Amerrrricaa". The byline is right on target.

[Web Gecko]

Paul Coopers makes some good points above.

I think the whole free world needs to wake up and take an in depth look at what is going on here.

It is human nature for people to focus on what directly affects them first.
If our people are hurt then we feel that first. We need to be more concerned
about the welfare of others and what happens to others due to local or international policy.

There have been many atrocities committed all over the world in the past,
some far worse than 9.11.01 (not to diminish the gravity of this heinous act).
We need to focus on not just the statistics but the cost in human grief and suffering (which has a very high financial cost - medical, family breakdown as well as the capital cost involved).

Yes, look at the Holocaust, Idi Amin, Pol Pot, RWANDA, Israel/Palestine and the list goes on.

I know the dropping of those bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima was necessary to end a war which if prolonged could have killed many more. I only recently got some more detail on the hell suffered by those swallowed up by the nuclear conflagration. I don't want to go into it as the reality is just too horrific.

We focus on 9.11.01 now because this is the history of our time as disturbing as it is. In Australia we reacted with a sense of horror, outrage and disbelief.
If terrorists are confident enough to act this way against the US we know they would have no qualms about doing the same in one of our cities. The whole free world is at risk.

We need to look at what we are doing in the world. Our policies don't only affect our own welfare. Look at the nightmare of Africa as one example a country
where children roam streets and villages with automatic weapons and noone is safe. Where are the arms flowing into Africa coming from and just what is the moral justification here ? Is this supply right, is it good ?

Africans like many other peoples have a history of tribal warfare. At least with
spears and less sophisticated weapons you can't do as much damage so fast as you can with automatic weapons.

Just like in Vietnam (and other conflicts) there will be enemy operatives
blending in with the local people. In Afghanistan, Taliban collaborators and
Alkaida members may be doing the same. But ordinary farmers, poor people are being hurt. It is difficult to target only the right people but we need to think more carefully about what we are doing. Many will see this as part of the necessary cost that must be paid to resolve this conflict.

The problem is that unnecessary hatred is being generated. The seeds of hatred usually bear their terrible fruit in the future. We must seek a solution to this conflict which brings people together, one which does not marginalise,
isolate or divide people or contribute to their impoverishment.

It is good to see some sort of plan being worked out for Afghanistans' future.
If we want to educate others as to the values we hold then the best way may be to demonstrate our respect for the lives and welfare of others by the appropriate actions/contribution. If we take an active role in the welfare
of other nations/peoples then they will see the truth of our stated beliefs through our actions. If we do not consider our course of action nothing will change for the better (fear, mistrust and hatred will go on).

I believe the world is at an important turning point in it's history.
Now is our time and opportunity to make a change for the betterment of all mankind. We need to look at the lessons that history can teach us otherwise we will lose our way. As time goes by our capacity to develop weapons of a more destructive nature grows.

Our attitude seems to be, "We can so we will" as if everything new that lies before us is like some Everest that must be climbed because it's there. Do we ask the question, "Should we do this just because we can ?". Like the cloning debate, people want to rush in because they can see great potential for the technology regardless of the fact that we don't really understand fully what we are doing. This is a tangent I will not dwell on but I think Xeroxing people
tampers with something which intrinsically defines who and what we are. Again it is like cheapening and devaluing an individual human life.

And this is at the heart of the matter. What is important to us ? What do we really believe in ? For me the value of human life is the bottom line.
If we hold a value we must put it into practice to prove it's potency.
This will make a difference.

Mankind is very intelligent, very smart but how wise are we ? We pride ourselves
on being mature, independant, hard working and resourcefull. How mature are we in reality ? How much has our race really progressed or matured when our basic response to conflict is still, "If you hit me, I'll hit you back !" (with something bigger generally). Have we learned what history teaches us ?
If we just react and retaliate this just generates a vicious cycle of retaliation and counter retaliation.

There is a time when negotiations must end and action is taken but there are more options open than just retaliation. We have no choice but to mature as a race and take an active interest in the welfare of others. There is no way of avoiding the necessary contribution. Current events have the potential to spiral out of control if we do not recognise the key indicators here.

Look at the reality of how the world reacts to conflict ! We don't look that wise and mature. We look like a bunch of pissed off school kids with machine guns and nukes.

It is time for mankind to grow up as a race and recognise what we hold in common as opposed to our differences. Life and humanity is common to all.
We all need food, water, shelter, clothing, medical facilities etc..
It is time for us all to take on more responsibility for the welfare of others.
We share a common home, plight and destiny. We also all suffer, cry and bleed.
We don't need that, but it is within our power to do something about it.

To the free world I say, yours is the opportunity now, you have the resources and the balance of power. Learn the lessons and be wise, take the initiative
to change things for the betterment of all humanity before it's too late.

Wake up. It could be now or never !


The Web Gecko

[clydefo]

Web Gecko,

Your statement of the standard historical view,

“I know the dropping of those bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima was necessary to end a war which if prolonged could have killed many more.”

brought to mind a revisionist view that I have read.

I.e., The bombs were dropped to demonstrate to the Soviets that we had the bomb and would use it. Japan was helpless and had been suing for surrender terms for months. The notion that there would be a million casualties in an invasion of Japan was a public cover story to justify dropping the bombs. The actual estimate was closer to fifty thousand if we were to do something so foolish as to actually invade. With no navy or merchant marine, and being bombed to rubble by conventional bombing, Japan could have withstood a classic military siege for only a very short time. Food for thought.

[Web Gecko]

Clydefo

I have not come across this revisionist history no.

Where can I read about this for myself ?


The Web Gecko

[bob]

Web Gecko - do not waste your time reading about the revisionist view, it is bunk.

[Web Gecko]

Hey Bob

You may be right but then you get to a stage in life where human nature no longer surprises you. Even still I like to keep an open mind and like to verify and check things out for myself. Knowing what others think gives you some perspective on how to approach problems where different people are involved.

It seems to me that if the Japanese wanted to surrender in the months before
those bombs were dropped that would be something significant. If it were true it would have been reported in the media somewhere hey (possibly not) ?

I don't go on assumption and I don't take anything on face value. I was born on
4.1.61 so what would I know about the truth of the matter ? It's hard enough getting the real facts about present day events. This applies also to the people
who lived through those events in the 40s.

I guess the question could be asked. Are there people unscrupulous enough
to sacrifice over 100,000 lives to achieve what they believe to be necessary ?
I think the sad answer (knowing human nature) is yes. Look at history. The answers are all there. The Holocaust is one valid example.

But I don't necessarily think there's any truth to the revisionist view. I think the US possibly took the view, it's either 50,000 of our people or it's
their people. Bottom line ? Everybody looks after number one.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Japanese seemed to be very fierce fighters (look at their fuedal past - blood thirsty lot). I think taking Japan would have been very costly. If their supply lines were cut then things could have been difficult for them but then who knows how long they would have held out given a full scale allied invasion.

History tells us you can't fight the whole world on your own and win.
World domination is a delusion.

The only way things will change for the better is if nations back up their words with corresponding actions. Nations can't go on as if the welfare of others does not matter and the sun will just keep shining. Times are a changeing
and if we want less ignorance and hatred in this world we have to take some responsibility for the welfare of others.

John Lennon wrote a song called Imagine. A very idealistic song one many people would describe as ,"Pie in the Sky" or the work of a dreamer. But it could be more than a song. It speaks about something many people would like to see, a better, fairer world. Mankind has the resources to change things for the better
but lacks the will. Human nature, corruption and greed stand in our way. If you want to put it down to delusion or the impossible dream then go ahead.

We do have the power to change things if we want. There is an old saying that a house divided will fall. In these times of the global village we can see how
environment, ecology and economics are interrelated. Policy and human activity have global impacts and implications for all nations. We can no longer afford to conduct ourselves like we did in the past in our seperate nations as if others don't exist or have needs similar to ours. All mankind is related anyway.

I have heard people talk about world government and I'm not suggesting this would be a bad or a good thing. But I can see why it could come into existence.
If you wanted to co-ordinate a world effort to eradicate terrorist cells/networks then the full cooperation of all nations would help. Everybody is concerned about the Big Brother concept but how do you keep terrorism down unless you know everything about everybody ?

This is not something I want to see come about given the loss of privacy/freedom it entails. There may be people who do though.

World government could coordinate other things like the proper distribution of aid, international development projects and many other things. Of course some nations may fight against their loss of sovereignty if this was the case.
World Government is just a concept at the moment but I can see that there could be forces in the world which could drive it into existence. For example we need to change our approach to conflict. In some cases also the United Nations seems to be somewhat of a toothless tiger.

Anyways

chou for now

The Web Gecko

[Gintaras]

Originally posted by clydefo Web Gecko, Your statement of the standard historical view, “I know the dropping of those bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima was necessary to end a war which if prolonged could have killed many more.” brought to mind a revisionist view that I have read. I.e., The bombs were dropped to demonstrate to the Soviets that we had the bomb and would use it. Japan was helpless and had been suing for surrender terms for months. The notion that there would be a million casualties in an invasion of Japan was a public cover story to justify dropping the bombs. The actual estimate was closer to fifty thousand if we were to do something so foolish as to actually invade. With no navy or merchant marine, and being bombed to rubble by conventional bombing, Japan could have withstood a classic military siege for only a very short time. Food for thought.

As sick as it can be:
to show to someone something by killing 100's of 1000's?

What's that? Prozaic stimulated thinking?

If I'm wrong, then maybe Bin Laden wanted to show something to someone?
Maybe some other devil one day will show something to someone too?

[KR0316]

This thread is very interesting learning the points of view from different people about what happened. But while people are talking about this I just wanted to know if anyone has seen this or thinks it is true. I recieved it from a friend today and want to see everyone thinks.



"Terrorist pilot Mohammad Atta blew up a bus in Israel in 1986. The Israelis captured, tried, and imprisoned him. As a part of the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians 1993, Israel had to agree to release so-called politcal prisoners. However, the Israelis would not release any with blood on their hands. The American President at the time, Bill Clinton, and his Secretary of State, Warren Christopher, insisted that all prisoners be released. Thus Mr. Atta was freed and eventually thanked the US by flying an airplane into Tower One of the World Trade Center. This was reported by many of the American TV networks at the time that the terrorists were first identified. It was censored in the US from all later reports."

[Techno Student]

"My message to others who have posted on this thread is that there is always hope
as long as we maintain our perspective and apply our intelligence and resources well."

I spent thirteen years in the United States Army. A car accident ended my career. I were still there, I would gladly volunteer to to fight in Afganistan. you seem to have some sort of idea that America should be fair, or even-handed when dealing with foreign nations. That's just too idealistic for me.

Afganistan is a cesspool of corruption and terrorism. The fact that we are overthrowing the taliban government there can only be a good thing, both for the Afgans, and for the United States. Most of the Arab nations only respect force anyway. If we had not retaliated the way we did, the terrorists would have stepped up their activities. I'm not saying you think this way, but the idea that we should not retaliate because it might somehow anger the terror groups of the world, that is both cowardly and foolish.

Are we really the home of the free and land of the brave? Lets practice what we preach and rid the free world of these animals.

[Gintaras]

Originally posted by Techno Student "My message to others who have posted on this thread is that there is always hope as long as we maintain our perspective and apply our intelligence and resources well." I spent thirteen years in the United States Army. A car accident ended my career. I were still there, I would gladly volunteer to to fight in Afganistan. you seem to have some sort of idea that America should be fair, or even-handed when dealing with foreign nations. That's just too idealistic for me. Afganistan is a cesspool of corruption and terrorism. The fact that we are overthrowing the taliban government there can only be a good thing, both for the Afgans, and for the United States. Most of the Arab nations only respect force anyway. If we had not retaliated the way we did, the terrorists would have stepped up their activities. I'm not saying you think this way, but the idea that we should not retaliate because it might somehow anger the terror groups of the world, that is both cowardly and foolish. Are we really the home of the free and land of the brave? Lets practice what we preach and rid the free world of these animals.

That's a very bad thinking.
One of the reason[s] that closed my perception that US citizens are one's to blame for 9/11

Let me try to explain someting:

In 1980's, CIA and US goverment showered Bin Laden and Co. with $$$"s.
Did anyone opposed that decision?
After 10 or 20 years something happened by someone who were paid in USD's by US goverment. I assume, most supports goverment.
Now, Northern Alliance.
US goverment and CIA once again very supports Northern Alliance[a game of the name or nobody gives a s**T what will happen after 10 or so years?]

Once it will happen again, and someone to blame would be from Northern Alliance, just like Bin Laden now?
Couldn't learn from the past mistakes?
Lack of HISTORY classes in school?
Couldn't remember in which year Bin Laden was supported by US goverment and who were in charge that year?

OK, if you know who did it and who were supported by whom, WHY DO YOU DO IT AGAIN??????????

btw, US supports terrorists too. Someone somewhere(don't ask me where and who - I assume everyone knows-it were in papers about) committed terror act a couple weeks ago[bomb explosion]that 5 people were killed(some children). US didn't do nothing about

Corruption?
Let's not to talk about?
From Foreign policies of view, can anyone tell when last time bought someting "made in israel" besides some old cookies in 99¢ stories?
I guess, everybody isn't stupid like I'am and knows that nothing in this country is done without $$$'s.
I understand Kuwait problem- OIL, but now?

[Techno Student]

Ginteras:

Personally, I don't care as much about the world as I do for this country, and its inhabitants. the point I make is simply this:

If we move to a tough stance on terrorism and protecting out borders, and our interests, then we would be more secure. Look as Russia, nobody picks on them.

The fact that we only do things for money or power is simply human nature. Other countries are no more or less noble than we are, with a couple of exceptions.

You do make a good point about how we fund terror groups when they are on our side, like during the cold war when the fromer Soviet Union invaded Afganastan.

We should stay the he11 out of foreign affairs unless it directly affects our borders, our country. Thats a good philosophy, but not very realistic.

And now that they blew up the world trade towers, all bets are off. The taliban had a chance to turn over Bin Laden, or at least help the U.S. find him.


The are getting what they deserve. Too bad for their people, but what about OUR people, who lost their lives.

Maybe this time the U.S. will do things right and actually help rebuild the nation, like the way we rebuilt japan after we nuked them.

[Gintaras]

[qoute]Maybe this time the U.S. will do things right and actually help rebuild the nation, like the way we rebuilt japan after we nuked them.[/qoute]

US are WE, nobody else will do. Like Germany did in 1933. All germans deceided in elections what someone will do to them.

If we move to a tough stance on terrorism and protecting out borders, and our interests, then we would be more secure. Look as Russia, nobody picks on them.

Russia has deceided that russians, not other religion or nationalities will govern themselves.
I think, it's not too late for americans deceide very same untill it might get too late. > learn from history of Russia anf Germany.
It's not too easy to make everyting right on big country.
It's much easier to make everything right on small country[look: Belgium- 9 mil. people]

And now that they blew up the world trade towers, all bets are off. The taliban had a chance to turn over Bin Laden, or at least help the U.S. find him

US knew pretty much of time where Bin Laden was. How couldn't you know whom you pay big $$$'s and help him?
I think, those who went to elections in 80's, who elected officials who supported Bin Laden at the time- those are to blame for 9/11. + US foreign policy, once again, someone elects those who choose such foreign policy and on whose hands the bloods is.

I'm a such very stupid person who looks more into roots why it happened and because of what reason than who it did directly.
And I think, I'm too stupid enough to care about future generations than to care about myself well being. And safe.

[Techno Student]

You're right, we did know where Bin Laden was, it was either '94 or 95, and Syria of all countries, had some intell on Bin Laden that they wanted to give the CIA. But the Administration at that time forbade the CIA from receiving it.


Reference to your quote about America learning from Russia, or Germany, I have nothing against how this country is governed, although it does get bothersome to see partison politics play out. Still, all things considered, I think we have a pretty good government.

[Techno Student]

Nice talking to ya Gintaras, I have to go to work now.