John Walker

[KR0316]

I am just curious what everyone thinks about John Walker. What should we do with him?

[bosco]

He should have died in Afghanistan!

[freptide]

I dont know maybe we should ask how an American goes about joining an army
of people who according to the media hate Americans and want to eradicate them from the earth. I thought the intelligence agencies were only equipped
and capable of that sort of thing. Maybe the whole story in the press is just cover for a possible foiled infiltration of the Taliban. Why are they making a big deal of it? Is he an example? There must be a reason they are covering
it so much. No new facts just the same stuff, over and over. Try him and put him in jail and go on to the next newsflash.

[KR0316]

Maybe your right Freptide, but one thing people are concerned about is once you serve in a foreign army you are no longer a citizen of the United States. We are treating him like a citizen by taking him to a trial by jury instead of war tribunals like he should have. He was captured during an uprising that killed an American and some people think he didn't do anything wrong because to them all he was doing was learning a different culture like a learning experience. His parents said he loves America but on his own he said he participated in a Bin Laden Training camp and shook hands with the man. His parents lawyer says he was denied legal counsel for 52 days when in reality he didn't want counsel. So the liberal media in America sometimes thrives on things America does wrong in my opinion so there is so much media coverage because they are just waiting to find something that we did wrong in this situation. I belive we should have killed him in the prison uprising just like he was one of them because he was at that time. He only all of the sudden became a law biding American since his parents and liberal lawyer got involved.

[doctorgonzo]

KR0316, I don't buy that he was serving in a "foreign army." The U.S. has never recognized the Taliban as a legitimate government, so for us to turn around and say that he was serving in a "foreign" army. More like a rag-tag bunch of poor saps.

Nevertheless, if you are going to rebel against somebody and you don't win, you can't really complain about what happens. Thus, life in prison is just fine. It's ridiculous, but those are the rules of the silly games people play.

Not that it matters much in the end anyway.

[KR0316]

Doctor I agree about the Taliban just being a ragtag bunch of bullies using religion as an excuse to put their sorry beliefs on the other people of Afghanistan. But if we are out risking service men and women lives going after Taliban and Bin Ladens forces wouldn't they be classified as an army of sorts by default because the Bin Laden Boys have declared war on the US and will kill every American and westerner it sees?

Your right though it doesn't make a difference in the end but I don't buy the fact when his parents go on the TV and explain to reporters how much John Walker loves America, He was denied legal counsel for 52 days, and he didn't mean to hurt anyone because he was just there learning a new language and culture. By his own statement he was trained by a Bin Laden training camp. So he should lose his "Americanhood" and be treated no differently than those scumbags in Guantanamo Bay Cuba who are still saying they are going to kill any American they can get their hands on even now while they are in custody. To answer Freptide the American media feeds off of controversy although they say the same thing day in and day out and everyone gets sick of it but they just feed off of it.

[doctorgonzo]

KR0316, just because Americans are risking their lives doesn't mean that those who want to kill us are foreign armies. Police officers risk their lives every day protecting us from organized crime and dealers who don't care whom they kill, but that does not mean criminals lose their citizenship. Legally, there are very specific ways citizenship can be lost, and I don't think it is worth the trouble to try to find some way to justify taking away Lindh's citizenship. We do still have a rule of law here, last time I checked (although who knows for how much longer...), and if we start arbitrarily interpreting laws for some unknown reason, what does that make us?

[Jason Padgett]

Am I the only one who thinks the pretzel story was BS? Think about it...actually try it...sit on the couch and pretend to pass out. How do you hit the floor with such velocity so as to get a raspberry like Bush did? You just kind of slump over... And how the hell to you choke to the point of passing out on a pretzel? I've gotten a little bit that went down the wrong way before...but not to the point of impairing my respiration enough so that I pass out.

Now, you COULD get an injury on the face like that if, say...you were tackled to the ground by a bunch of Sercret Service agents trying to protect you from...????


Conspiracy Theorists Unite!

[KR0316]

Originally posted by doctorgonzo We do still have a rule of law here, last time I checked (although who knows for how much longer...), and if we start arbitrarily interpreting laws for some unknown reason, what does that make us?

Your absolutely right Doc and I would not want that to happen. But by the same token would you want someone to go to a terrorist country participate and kill innocents and come and go to and from the US as they please because they are legal citizens? I am not saying Lindh has participated in terrorist activities because he hasn't actually been found guilty of anything. For all I know he was a victim of circumstance.

[doctorgonzo]

I just think it is interesting that people are so up in arms about one poor kid who didn't even do anything. I don't recall hearing anybody say that McVeigh should have lost his citizenship. Or how about the anthrax mailings? Most people think that some unknown domestic source caused that. What about all the other nutballs with their own crazy causes that kill Americans in our country? I don't know how "making an example" out of John Walker Lindh will accomplish much of anything, except to make the large group of armchair terrorist-fighters feel good about themselves. He's very useful for investigation into Al-Qaida, so use him for that. If he's guilty of any crimes, put him in prison. But he is unworthy of all of the attention.

[Colb]

Well, he should either be locked up for life or get the death penalty. No other option should be brought up.

[Gintaras]

Originally posted by KR0316 I am just curious what everyone thinks about John Walker. What should we do with him?

Ask his lawyer.

And everyone do ALL the "truth" know- from media ONLY- now...and the MEDIA is what for????..... judge for yourself

[BaldEagle]

Unbelievable!
He is an adult, not a child. If you treat young adults like children and absolve all their actions as young "mistakes", you create EXACTLY the kind of environment that produces these types of useful idiots. I knew before they even went on television that his parents were the typical Marin County, Kumbaya-singing, pass-the-bong, find-your-own truth types that they turned out to be.

As for not doing anything, I guess participating in a prisoner uprising that killed a REAL american doesn't matter. After all, he was a CIA agent and we all know how evil they are.

Who needs Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia as enemies when we have our own "blame America for everything" crowd right at home.
Simply amazing!

[Kubie]

Now that he's here, give him the fairest trial possible, then hang the sucker at sunrise.
Carl

[Edave]

My thoughts are this:
He was Not a soldier of any army.He IS a Terrorist.
He joined a group thats sole purpose is to KILL American men,women,and children.
My first wish would be for a Tomahawk missle to bust him,but since that will never happen,I can only wish for Really BAD things happen to him in Prison.
He knew the United States was coming.If he loved this country so much,he could have left that place when those scum bags attacked the World Trade Towers.I think he was probably dancing in the streets on Sept.11th.
I can go on and on,but I will stop now.
Just my 2 cents.

[KR0316]

Doctor, McVeigh did lose his citizenship (so to speak) by way of lethal injection. What the people that feel sorry for him, the people who think he was misled, the people who think he didn't do anything wrong, and the people that say deep down inside he really loves America don't seem to think of is he joined an organization that's sole purpose in life is to kill everyone who isn't muslim "all in the name of Islam" including the people who feel sorry for him. The Taliban vowed to "kill every American they see and drag them through the streets like in Somalia in celebration". By joining that organization he is guilty by association. Whether the CIA agent actually died by Walker hand or not he was there and he participated. I understand what you are saying about the US has laws and in no way do I want anyone to rewrite them at their own whims but when John Walker Lindh became involved with "TERRORISTS",terrorists who conspired to kill thousands in New York and everywhere else in the world, he should have lost his rights. I don't think he should "get the needle" to be made an example of but because he deserves it along with the rest of those killers including the anthrax mailer and all of the other nut jobs who want to rid the world of westerners including Americans. Your right he doesn't deserve all of the attention he belongs in Guantanamo Bay being interrogated for his valuable information and if he is found innocent of any wrong doing then send him back to the Middle East. He is just lucky he was caprtured and not killed. But when his parents and his Marin County high dollar lawyer comes on the TV and says he loves America, don't give that crap. It is funny how all of the sudden he loves America when he is being threatened with prison time and may go to a facility the houses very violent people who do love America and probably don't like him.

But thanks Doc for the debate and I agree he doesn't deserve all of this attention. I just wanted to put in my 2 cents (more than once)

[doctorgonzo]

Marin County, Kumbaya-singing, pass-the-bong, find-your-own truth types

Not all "find-your-own truth types" are as clueless as his parents. I am one of them. However, put yourself in his parents shoes. Parents always want to believe the best about their children. This is not anything new. Whether it is a parent refusing to believe that his or her child stole something from a store to refusing to believe that the kid is a murderer, parents often rationalize these things. That's what they do. You would probably do the same thing. So just ignore it.

[BFD Deadeye]

To quote a popular movie: "Burn the witch!" No excuse as far as I see it. I'm tired of the bleeding hearts and liberals blaming everything and everybody but the true source of blame. BTW, have you guys heard of that movement in Boston Mass. trying to do away with the term "minority"? They say it is deragatory, and insulting. Political correctiveness is getting way out of hand.

[doctorgonzo]

BFD, there is one excuse: if you win. The winners write the history books, the losers don't. We won the Revolutionary War, and so Washington is a hero. Had Great Britain put down our rebellios traitors, don't you think Washington would have been treated as John Walker Lindh is being treated now? And what is wrong with doing away with the word "minority?" I don't think there are minorities, and I am mainly an Objectivist. Everybody is human. The only minority is a minority of one: yourself.

[BFD Deadeye]

Minority is just a descriptive word. I just think it is silly, especially when you consider what has happened in this country since September. It trivializes bigger problems.

[jarhead6153]

Ok, all you armchair generals, a few things must be mentioned first. If john walker is convicted at trial he will go to jail and lose his ability to vote which is pretty much the standard that matters to us most. Secondly, Im with baldeagle and kr0136...it doesnt matter if he considered a 'soldier, or not', as far as he is concerend, by the law of war,(which governs our u.s. military forces) anyone who has a wepeon in thier hands is a combatant, it could be a child, a women or an old man. Put a rifle in thier hand and by the above mentioned rule, I as an active duty Marine can exterminate them, no warning shots, nothing. drgonzo, I feel you are alone on this subject, even though I respect your opinion. I have been in the Marine Corps for 17 yrs now and have a memerial to attend to hohor two fellow Marines from my unit who died in a crash last week in afganistan. How would you like to tell the widow and parents of these brave Marines that john walker was just 'a victum of circumsatnce', the hell with him and his group hug, hand holding parents. As history has proved time and again, he will not make it thru prison, even the hardest of the criminals have their own mores...So Im sure he will have his day in court, I just hope it is fair and that all his lawyers realize above all else he should not get out of this on some technicality, ie being on a ship at sea for 50+ days, I guess we should have chartered a big 747 just to bring him home, right?

just my .02 worth...

The oxen is slow...but the earth is patient

[doctorgonzo]

jarhead, I don't think Lindh was "a victim of circumstance." My point is this: when you get right down to it, this is a fight over metaphysics, and that is THE dumbest reason to every get into a fight.

Bin Laden says God is on his side; Dubya says God is on our side. Bin Laden, Lindh, and their allies think their way of life is the "best" way and that this is what God wants; many people in this country also blindly believe that somehow this county has God's "special favour" and is the best in the world. It is all nonsense. Metaphysics can never be proven; that is why it is called metaphysics. It is beyond the physical world, it is beyond quantification. God may be on bin Laden's side; She may be on our side, He may be on nobody's side. It's pointless.

Having a metaphysical belief system is a fine game to play, but it is just that: a game. Nobody knows if anything happens when we die, and we won't know until we die. For anybody to start a war because A) they think they are sure that a God exists and B) they think they are sure that they know what God wants, is utterly ridiculous.

John Walker Lindh is a person who has his own metaphysics, and he thinks that America is corrupt and decadent. Other people's metaphysics say nearly the opposite. Some people have a metaphysics that tells them they are doing God's work to kill government agents, doctors who perform abortions, and so on. My metaphysics consists of the belief that consciousness is an analog to the way gravity warps space-time in Einstein's General Relativity. Who knows whose, if anybody's, is the right one?

Sure, John Walker Lindh is getting a lot of press because he is an easy target. However, no matter what is done with him, it will not serve anything if the root causes that started this war are not addressed. And the root cause is this: people keep taking their metaphysics, which is arbitrary and unprovable, and using that as a basis for living in the physical world. Until both sides stop taking about having "God on our side," this will continue long into the future.

[KR0316]

Originally posted by doctorgonzo For anybody to start a war because A) they think they are sure that a God exists and B) they think they are sure that they know what God wants, is utterly ridiculous. Until both sides stop taking about having "God on our side," this will continue long into the future.

I agree on a couple points. If people are going to start wars because God told them to is utterly ridiculous. I think that our enemy is taking the "in the name of Islam" too far. There are plenty of muslims in the US that are completely innocent and don't hate the US. I think there is a different motive for waging a terrorist war against us and they are using the "god on our side" as a smoke screen for a different motive and to get muslim support for their barbaric actions.

[doubledragon5]

Just shoolt him and get it over with!!!!!

[freptide]

The Ragheads that flew into the buildings were
thugs. Above them are people who planned and
recruited them for the purpose of destroying the US economy.
They went to alot of trouble to get noticed. Its obvious that
the people who planned this wanted the blame to rest entirely
on the evil doer Taliban baddies. Does anyone see a pattern
here? Slowly we are moving down from country to country.
Seizing control because we have to stop terrorism. Terrorism
is becoming a broad term more and more each passing day.
Someday we may find food drops in the US. He who controls the
food supply controls the people. There is alot more going on
in the world besides Johnny Walker. Hes nothing more than a
distraction from other things going on in the world. If they can
concentrate the focus on Walker they can stay away from
the important stuff and we can keep traveling down the dead end road
the news media is driving us towards, that rarely has any solutions.

[doctorgonzo]

Just shoolt (sic) him and get it over with!!!!! The Ragheads that flew into the buildings were thugs.

Sometimes I am so proud to be an American, what with my ignorant paranoid compatriots and all. It is nice living here, where people have the freedom to wish that fellow citizens be summarily shot without trial. Or they can use derogatory, racist terms to demonize enemies. Or subscribe to the current issue of "Conspiracy Theory Monthly." Some of the things I hear from other people defies all logic and makes me ill.

[freptide]

Sometimes people are just gullible, and Its not their fault. Theyve been trained from birth to believe one way. They cant snap out of the mold that they and many other like them have been taught, in school and on their national
news. You can be a proud American but at the same time you don't have to be
ignorant of the facts and believe everything. You should research for yourself and come to a conclusion based upon facts from many sources. Does this sound like consppiracy paranoia? Politically correct zombies make me sick.....

[doctorgonzo]

Well, freptide, which is more likely: some small group of people "conspired" to wreck the economy, or the economy is in a recession due to the bubble burst in the tech sector, the increasing amount of consumer debt, the decreasing amount of equity in homes, excess manufacturing capacity, excess inventory, and so on. And who really "destroyed the economy" after September 11th? Terrorists, or politicians bent on instituting ridiculous laws to look "tough on terrorism?"

If you have evidence to back up any of your statements, let's hear it. But your tone, and your use of words like "raghead" imply that you simply don't know what you are talking about.

[freptide]

DocGOnz after I read your earlier posts I realize you are nothing but an Atheist. Now being that this country was founded on a belief in God, you dont really have any valid point in any issue as far as Im concerned. Your 'Bubble burst' excuses are laughable and beside the point. The point is the capital of world trade was reduced to rubble on the 11th. Maybe you should stop watching CNN and read British news because its alot more accurate! Myself and plenty of others aren't as Politically-correct as you. Get used to that fact.

[hotwire]

I know this is only my first post, but, I have to say that the term "raghead"is a little offensive to me, being that my mother is from Afghanistan. Not trying to start anything but that term is a little irritating to me.

Jason