GeForce 3 on older system

[Cricket]

Hi all,

Ran into something I'm not too familiar with. I was asked by a co-worker to install a PNY GeForce 3 TI 200 AGP into his friend's HP Pavillion 8050. The owner tried to install it himself, but didn't know to the disable on-board video first so there were lots of problems after and he gave up. Out of desperation, the system was brought to me .

The HP is a PIII 500MHz on a ASUS P2B-VE (BX chipset) with on-board ATI graphics (forget which one), 320MB PC100 RAM, some weird soundcard/modem combo card that connected via cable to another card that had A/V input/outputs on it, Win98SE (HP version) and not much software applications installed (just MS Works and Quicken).

I disabled on-board graphics, installed the GeForce and cleared up some IRQ conflicts the system had (although the modem and soundcard kept sharing IRQ's no matter what I tried...guess it's a HP thing). I installed the latest Nvidia Reference drivers and DirectX. Went into Device Manager while in Safe Mode and there are no duplicate entries for any device.

The GeForce came bundled with Empire Earth and some other 3D game (sorry, I'm not a gamer and am not familiar with what's out there...it's some kind of shooter). Both games installed fine and I can start the games up and go into setup to set options and such...but as soon as I try to go into the actual game, the whole system freezes. This happens for both games. The system works fine in 2D applications like Works...it's only when the 3D game engine is engaged that the problem appears.

From what I understand, the system could run Unreal Tournament with the on-board graphics, but the kids wanted something better so Dad bought the GeForce 3. Now Unreal Tournament will lock up as soon as the 3D game starts with the GeForce 3.

Do you think this older system is having a hard time with the GeForce 3? Now, I don't know much about the latest video cards or gaming related issues (haha...my idea of a really good video card is the Matrox G200) and don't quite understand 3D engines and terms like Glide, T/L, Open GL, etc..., but something is definitely going on here.

I've already returned the system to the owner as school is starting up again and the kids need the PC to do reports. But any insight into this issue will be much appreciated.

Cricket

[Prew]

Some of the older mobo's don't supply enough voltage to run a Geforce card. I have an older Asus/HP mobo that has the same problem on (exact same symptoms as yours, however, my mobo doesn't have onboard video or audio, and my TNT card works fine with it). If this is the problem, you might be able to increase the i/o voltage in the mobo bios. Check the HP support site to see if this a problem from your friend's computer.

BTW- I just checked the HP support site and don't see your friends model of computer listed-- is 8050 correct?

[Cricket]

Hi Prew,

Thanks for the response. I thought I had read somewhere about voltage issues when using newer video cards on older motherboards (he said a sales rep at CompUSA told him the GeForce would work fine, no problem...even told him he didn't have to remove or disable the existing video...ugh), your response confirms it. I'll forward the information to the owner.

I did look around in the BIOS...very skimpy, only 4 different setup screens. The only video option I found was a choice between AGP or PCI video...whoopee .

Sorry about the HP model number error (my memory was never any good ). I think it might have been the 8580, but I'm not positive. It did have a PIII 500MHz, an ASUS P2B-?? motherboard, on-board graphics and a weird sound/modem combo card. I'll have to check with my co-worker to get the exact model number.

I guess if this guy really wants to make use of that GeForce, he'll have to upgrade the rest of the system around it . I think he actually does want to upgrade, but his financial situation may say otherwise.

Thanks again!

Cricket

[mike breck]

Hi Cricket,

According to this link the "mobo" does support the Geoforce. But it doesn't say whether this is Geoforce 256, Geoforce 2, or Geoforce 3.

http://www.g256.com/guides/geforcecomp.shtml

I'm not disagreeing with Prew in general about voltages but there seem to be many exceptions to the rule.

As far as I know the voltage problem was more apparent in the original Geoforce 256 which drew too much power from certain mobos. I believe the 2 and 3 use a lower voltage which eliminated this problem.

I have a Geoforce 256 in a BX mobo and it works well. But it seems to be just your luck whether an older mobo can run any Geoforce. Another factor in the equation is whether the AGP slot is AGP 1.0 or AGP 2.0.

Most manufacturers recommend AGP 2.0 for the Geoforce 3. However, many have managed to get a Geoforce 3 working on AGP 1.0 - albeit at a slower rate of 1x or 2x as opposed to 4x. Again it's just your luck.

Apart from increasing the i/o voltage as Prew suggested, some have reported that increasing the PSU on older mobos to 300Watts has helped to get a GF2 or GF3 to work. These cards need more power. Again it's a lottery whether it will work.

I know you don't want to play around with this system too much but the fact you got the Geoforce 3 TO WORK AT ALL is a positive sign. In most cases where the voltage is a problem, or the mobo is not compatible, you would not get boot-up. I would be tempted to try completely uninstall the NVidia and ATI drivers

http://forum.pcmech.com/showthread.p...threadid=18832

and try it again with a 300 Watt PSU.

Also, just in case there is a hardware conflict hidden somewhere, I would disable all other hardware in Device Manager ("Disable in this Hardware Profile") and try that. Again because it's worth trying because you got the card to boot.

If nothing works then it could still be worthwhile to try a Geoforce 256 in the mobo. I beieve Elsa still make AGP cards based on the original Geoforce 256. If it works on mine then there is a good chance it will work on his.

Another option is to try a TNT11 32mb or TNT11 64mb. Good cards which are compatible with the BX board - at least they were with mine and produced good performance. From the same era as the mobo.

Perhaps even a Kyro or Radeon.
Just get him to buy from a shop with a good return policy - so if it doesn't work, he can take it back.

I really think he'll get one of these good cards working with that system and save some money instead of upgrading the whole system.

HTH

[Prew]

The Geforce that will not work on my P2B (not sure which version) is a Geforce DDR- 2D ok, but locks up on 3D. TNT card works fine.

That reminds me, my Geforce DDR card had a similar problem on another computer Abit BX6 2.0 (BX chipset)- 2D ok but no 3D- turned out that the card was broken and replacing the card fixed that problem. Can you install the card in another computer to see if it works?

Concerning the AGP, I believe the Asus P2B is AGP version 2.

Other forums have posted similar threads concerning a similar problem, however, no definitive answers are given. Concerning Voltage, some of the earlier P2B's had voltage limitations that made overclocking difficult. However, some P2B's had jumper settings to change the voltage. Not sure if this would effect the voltage available for a video card though.

Checked the HP site-- not helpful.

I agree with Mike Beck that maybe you should return the card (if its an incompatibility problem that can't be fixed) and get something less expensive that will work-- wonder if a Geforce 2 GTS will work? My DDR worked ok in my Abit KT7 but I needed to increase the i/o voltage when I installed a G3.

[Cricket]

Hi mike and Prew!

Thanks for the help and insight into this problem.

I don't have the PC with me anymore, but from what my co-worker is telling me, his friend only uses it to play games on. I offered a few options and my co-worker will be getting in touch with his friend to see what he wants to do.

From what I can see, going with a high end video card from around 3 years back would be a good bet. But since I was never much into gaming I had no idea what those would have been. I'll tell my co-worker about the TNT II video cards (are these still readily available?). Any others we should be looking at?

Since this PC is in a mini HP tower, putting in a new 300 watt PS would mean a big time hack job. The current PS is only 175 watts! And it's some odd shaped thing made to fit in a really tight spot.

I outlined what kind of upgrade is possible with a new case, motherboard, CPU, etc...just in case he decides to go for it.

Also suggested looking at the X-Box since their main PC use is only games. They don't even go on-line from what I understand. No phone.

Anyway, thanks so much for the information, very enlightening for this non-gamer...I'll be sure to pass the info on to the owner of the HP.

Oh, my co-worker just told me his friend wants to go with a system upgrade. So looks like we'll be looking for a new motherboard, CPU, soundcard and case.

Thanks again for all the info guys!

Cricket

[mike breck]

Sorry Prew, I didn't know you had the same Asus mobo. Mind you, I find it is still strange the G3 even booted. Curious.

Yes Cricket, the TNT11's are still available - but tell him not to get the VANTA - it's poor. The Creative TNT11 Ultra was one of the best. My boys use it on the Duron 600 and it's still able to cope with the latest FPS games.

However, if your co-worker's kids are not at the "want to impress their friends with the specs of their PC stage", then the Xbox or a PS2 would be very viable alternatives. The games are more expensive though. But it's really swings and round-a-bouts when comparing consoles with PCs for gaming. Anyway, all kids like consoles - so he can't lose.

It's funny we should have a similar problem at the same time Cricket. I posted in the Hardware forum (because I think it's a mobo problem) about my Epox 8KTA/Duron 600 not booting with two different Geoforce 2 mx's. That mobo's only a couple of years old and should work with the Geoforce. Epox emailed to strip the mobo out of the case and try to boot-up. Now there's a new idea.

I will, of course. But I need to wait until the boys are back to school on Monday before I dare interrupting their holiday gaming again.

Such is life.

[NickLuto]

It seems that I am having the exact same problem (freezing the instant that anything 3d intensive is on screen) but I noticed that I had 5 devices on the same IRQ slot. How do I get them off? I tried messing around iwth them (disabling onboard sound, reinstalling the netgear network card, etc) and I got just the video card on it and still getting lockup in the same place every time.

Cricket, you said that you messed around with the IRQ arrangement..how did you do this? Every time the bootup right after I install my network card again it goes from IRQ 7 to IRQ 11 (with my GeForce2 ..

I have no idea what to do except sit in a corner and cry! =P~~~

I think Im going to take back the Geforce 2 and get the exact same graphics card as some of the other forum members using Dragon Plus! mobos...if that doesnt work Im sending back my mobo and getting an Asus

Nick

[Cricket]

Thanks again Prew and mike.

Well, it definitely looks as if the owner of the HP wants to go the upgrade route instead of hanging on to the HP. He doesn't want to go with the latest and greatest stuff, said a T-Bird on a KT133A motherboard would more than make him happy. Do you think the SOYO K7VTA-PRO KT133A would have a problem with the GeForce 3 TI200? I'm hoping it's new enough to handle the demands of the GeForce. Is there a website I can check for GeForce compatibility? I did go to the website that mike posted, but they only listed an older SOYO and I'm not sure what to look for anyway.

Mike: Yeah, I saw your post earlier and noticed it was similar to what I was going through. Tell you the truth, I didn't really follow most of it since I don't follow video card technology too closely anymore (man, never thought I'd see video cards going for $500 +...I see there's a Elsa Gloria III that costs $720 at Newegg.com...yikes ). Only card maker I'm familiar with is Matrox .

Prew: Thanks for the help and information. I didn't install the card in another PC because it didn't dawn on me that the GeForce might be broken . I'll tell the owner he may want to take the card back to CompUSA and have them check it to see if it's defective or not. He decided he wanted to upgrade his system instead of messy around with the old HP any longer. For a gamer (sort of) I think he made the right choice.

Thanks again to both of you for your time and help, I really appreciate it. Looks like I'll be getting a PIII 500MHz soon .

Cricket

[mike breck]

Hi NickLuto,

A couple of simple ways to do it first.

If you're not using the Serial (Comm) ports for anything, then disable them in the bios. That will free up two IRQs and may entice some of the devices to use them.

Once you've freed up some IRQs then you can try moving the PCI cards around until you find a slot for the Network card that doesn't have it sharing IRQ 11.
Remember to to keep PCI slot 1 (usually the one nearest the AGP slot) free as it shares resources with the AGP slot.

If any of this doesn't work, then it starts getting more complicated as you have to start reserving IRQs in the bios to jiggle things around. But I won't go into that just yet. See if these simple steps work first.

HTH

[mike breck]

I'm sure the Soyo would be compatible Cricket.

However, the problem is with XP, new chipsets, and new cards flying around at the moment, you begin to lose track of what works with which. Each blames the other for not working and what works on one system doesn't work on another.

Oh to have the simplicity and solidity of the the KT133a chipset back again!

Hopefully, one the Soyo owners can give you a definite answer.

[Cricket]

Originally posted by mike breck Oh to have the simplicity and solidity of the the KT133a chipset back again!

Haha...yeah, I sort of stopped following the latest CPU's and chipsets last year...too tiring to keep up. Give me the Intel BX chipset and a Pentium II/III Slot 1 anyday .

Thanks for all your input into this Mike, I really appreciate your help.

Cricket

[mike breck]

Gotta agree with you on that. I'm typing on my trusty old P2450 BX at this very moment.

[Prew]

Originally posted by Cricket Do you think the SOYO K7VTA-PRO KT133A would have a problem with the GeForce 3 TI200?

Should work. I'm using a G3 TI200 on an Abit KT7 which uses a KT133 chipset (however, remember that I had to increase the I/O voltage to get the card to work correctly). So to be on the safe side, your friend should make sure that the mobo he buys has options in the bios to allow for this if needed. The Abit has the Softmenu in the bios that makes this type of adjustment a piece of cake.

175 watt power supply? Good chance that this was the problem.

Your friend might consider keeping the HP, then he can set up a LAN and play multiplayer games. This add a whole new deminsion to gaming.

[Cricket]

Hi Prew,

Thanks for the additional info. The owner of the HP hasn't committed to any plans yet, but will probably upgrade using some of the parts out of the HP (financial limitations are in play here).

I'm going to be doing a little more research into the GeForce 3/motherboard compatibility thing before we decide on a motherboard. Don't want more problems later on.

Yeah, the HP had a 175 watt PS and it was designed for the mini-ATX case the HP uses, so there was no way to switch it out with a standard sized 300 watt PS. The HP owner is going to be picking up a Antec SX830 so power shouldn't be an issue next time.

The LAN idea sounds good, but then I wouldn't get the PIII 500MHz in return for services rendered . We still have some things to discuss before I actually start the new build.

Thanks again.

Cricket

[Horsepwr]

I had the same prob Cricket. It is the AGP revision prob GF3 needs revision 2.0 Thats direct from nvidia support

[Cricket]

Thanks for the info Horsepwr. I don't have the HP with me anymore but the owner has decided to upgrade the system. I'll be sure to check that the motherboard we decide to go with will support AGP 2.0.

Cricket