Video chipsets/History Lesson?

[Jetboy55]

Im wondering about the recent history(3yrs) of video cards and video chipsets. Can anyone point me to a web site where I can just learn about what has been around the last couple years, and whats out there now? I dont want a bunch of fancy tests, just general info about chipsets/cards history.
Eg.. I know that nVidia makes the Geforce2 GTS with onboard T&L, but what was their big chipset before that(256?)? Ive seen cards with TNT2, is that just a card name, or a name of a GPU/chipset? Whats M64? Please answere some basic history questions, or point me to a place I can learn about it, I am new to high quality video and want to learn badly. Thanks for the great forrum.

[JetBlack69]

Hi Jetboy55, sorry for no one answering you questions, but maybe I can help. You could go to http://www.firingsquad.com and look at their reviews of the videocards you are wondering about. I think they also have an article on FSAA and T&L, but not sure. You could also look at http://www.sharkyextreme.com or http://www.anandtech.com too. Hope this helps.

[padawan]

I'm not sure of a site that would have the history, except maybe the http://www.nvidia.com site. As far as I know the history of NVIDIA goes like this (starting about 1997):

Rive 128 released, but does not compete well with rising Voodoo card.

TNT is released, and fares well. Offers a single card solution for both 2D and 3D graphics. 3dfx counters with the Banshee, which is basically a Voodoo2 with a 2D engine. The Banshee is hampered by the lack of multitexturing, as it must make one pass per texture on a pixel.

TNT2 comes next, sporting the speed we had originally been promised for the TNT. It is fast, and sparks the Voodoo3/TNT2 wars. The TNT2 is released in two speed grades, the TNT2 and TNT2 Ultra. NVIDIA gains a large portion of the vid card market, and attempts to infiltrate the low end with the TNT2 M64. The M64 uses a 64-bit wide data path, effectively cutting its performance in half, but it also costs next to nothing. You still see companies using these M64 cards toay, even in some high-end computers.

The GeForce256 is NVIDIA's first GPU, and they boast about the T&L. Hardly any games support hardware T&L, so it is almost a non-factor. But, the GeForce is fast, and 3dfx fails to deliver a new card due to problems with the VSA-100 chips. NVIDIA incorparates DDR memory into the GeForce, and it makes great speed gains.

Six months later, NVIDIA releases the GeForce2 GTS. Using a higher clocked core, new features like per pixel shading, and faster DDR memory, the GTS is only slowed by its own memory bottleneck. Seeking to grab more low-end market shares, NVIDIA again releases a stripped down card, calling this one the GeForce2 MX. The MX features a lower core speed, and slower memory (166Mhz, comapred to the 333Mhz of the GTS) The MX is still very fast, and sells for about 1/3 the price. 3dfx finally gets the Voodoo5 to the shelf, although it is not nearly as fast in raw performance, it does feature revolutionary new image quality features.

I think it was about 5-6 months after that, and NVIDIA releases the GeForce2 Ultra. It features a faster core, even faster memory, and sells for about $500.

That's about all I know...somebody want to tackle the 3dfx story?

[Jetboy55]

Thanks Padawan, that is exactly the kind of info Im looking for(I will print your post for future reference). I wish you had time to investigate and start a web site with this kind of general timeline/performance comparison information. I would be there alot. Thanks again, anyone else want to help me out? I would appreciate it.

[PeteS99]

Where the hell was this post?! I found a great article a few days ago, and came back to post it... and couldnt find this thread. Thought I was insane... anyway, here's a good one from Tomshardware..:

http://www6.tomshardware.com/guides/graphic.html

~pete

[Jetboy55]

That was a good article, it helped me to get a understanding of the timeline of graphics processors as they came out, especially 2 to 3 yrs ago. I have a built in ATI Rage Pro accelerator in my PC. It works pretty good, but I dont use it with tough games like Unreal, UT, Quake or anything. But it does give me problems with Tiger Woods PGA Tour collection golf game. It gets really jerky when it pans left to right, if I have settings up to best. I was thinking of upgrading to new card (old one can be disabled) but there's no actual AGP slot, its onboard. So i was thinking of a PCI solution. But I wonder if the PCI limitations will leave me with not much improvement, even if I go to a Voodoo3 or 4 pci card. Have any comments? Thanks for the post, Im impressed you remembered my post and were thoughtful enough to come back and find it. I appreciate it alot. Thanks.

[Xayd]

The difference in PCI and AGP speeds can only be seen at 1280 x 1024 and higher. At any lower resolution the speeds are virtually identical. For under 100 bucks, Voodoo3's are a great buy. The Voodoo4 is a waste, you won't see a big performance increase from the 32 megs of RAM it has, and it doesn't have the speed capability for the features it offers.

Xayd

[Jetboy55]

Thanks Xayd. I am under the impression that this ATI Rage PRo which is quite old is a underperformer and I would benefit from the Voodoo3. I wanted to check some of the actual numbers of the Rage Pro chipset but am having trouble finding numbers for it. Im only a occational gamer and dont plan on running over 1024 x 768 at 16 bit, so I think Im going to get a Voodoo 3 and hope for the best. Is this the best PCI solution for my average computer(AMD K6-2 475mhz, 128mb ram)? Or is the TNT2 a better deal or something? Can anyone point me to a place I could find numbers on my ATI Rage Pro chipset? I cant find it at ATI.com or any hardware sites, I guess cause its too old. Thanks again everyone.
PS: I read that the GeForce256 was a great solution when first introduced and has onboard T&L, which games are starting to make use of by now, right? Did they make any GeForce256 cards in PCI? Would that be a good choice too? Is it still expensive? Thanks.

[kraken]

Jetboy check with PeteS99 (PM) about whether he would be prepared to part with his Banshee card. He's just upgraded to a viperII (AGP) and seems to have a spare card. While its not a voodoo3 it would certainly outperform the rage pro thats built into your Mboard.

[Tiretool]

As would the Diamond Monster 3D 2 that I have decided to let go to the first person to offer $50. It's an add-on card, so you'll need to keep a primary card to control all your 2d stuff. This one only renders 3D. It's a 12 meg PCI card. I'll pay shipping anywhere in the US. If out of country, shipping is on you.

Going... going..... amost gone...

[kraken]

PeteS99's viperII will only have cost him $39 after his $20 rebate.

[Tiretool]

And?

........it's an S3 powered card. Not a top knotch quality card in my book. The Voodoo 2 powered card on the other hand...

[kraken]

Tiretool
It would be a no contest. The ViperII would eat the voodoo2 for breakfast. Benchmarking on this card shows that it can keep up and surpass a TNT2 standard card, this is especially so on lower speced PCs (<500MHz), could the Voodoo2 do that. Besides the banshee is a 2D/3D voodoo2 basically. I was merely stating that your price might be a bit high for such an old card.

[Tiretool]

Well you're certainly entitled to your own opinion. I on the other hand would not own an S3 card. I've heard too many people on newsgroups disgusted with the incompatabilities related to S3 products. The drivers for this card were horrid, being cited as "the worst since ATI's". The voodoo line of cards though, is compatible with most all games. Although I have converted over to the NVidia side of the house, I still know that 3DFX makes good stuff, including their older stuff. I'd be willing to go down to $40 and I'd still pay shipping, but that's my low number.



[Edited by Tiretool on 11-17-2000 at 01:32 PM]

[kraken]

Isn't haggling fun!

[Tiretool]

[Jetboy55]

Thanks guys. Im not really interested in a 3d add on card, Im not certain I could disable the onboard cards 3d functions but have it keep handling 2d while Banshee or Diamond Monster 3d 2 handles 3d. If its possible, I wouldnt know how to do it.
By the way, just for my info.. what chipset is that Viper based on?
Also, were most ATI products considered poor until the Radeon?

Also, I read a statement that said "....the Radeon even gives the older GeForce cards a run for their money with its 3d rendering speed"....Is that to say this big, bad, new, fancy, expensive Radeon is just keeping up with a GeForce of 1 or 2 genereations ago?

PS: When did the GeForce 256 come out? Did it ever get made in a PCI card that I might be able to find.

PSS: 3dfx's API was called Glide, right? Does this mean that Voodoo cards wont run games that dont include Glide support? I am thinking that used to be the case but newer 3dfx chipsets/cards do run most games. If this is the case, what version Voodoo started the support of more than just glide?

Thanks a million. You have helped alot. Sorry so many questions, but Im curious as h**l about this stuff.

[Xayd]

ATI considered poor until Radeon...

Yeah, kinda. They've always been a popular brand, because they're cheap and reliable, especially for workstation type stuff where 3d performance aren't a consideration. The Radeon is their first attempt in awhile to break into the gamer market.

Glide, and its applications

Yes, Glide is 3dfx's proprietary API, and can only be used with 3dfx cards. The 3dfx cards do support the other API's as well, starting really with the Voodoo3's. If you play Glide games, you'll see much better performance and visual quality from a 3dfx card. Glide games are most notably the Unreal engine titles (Unreal, Unreal Tournament, Deus Ex, etc.)

Geforce chipsets

The Geforce 256 came out about 9 months ago, maybe a year. No, it was never made in PCI format to my knowledge. It's been replaced by the Geforce2, and the Geforce2 Ultra. The Geforce2 MX is the low end nVIDIA chipset now, designed to compete with the Voodoo4 and Voodoo3.

Radeon claims and speed

Radeon people are claiming "comparable" speed to the Geforce2 and Geforce 256, and also claiming more features than nVIDIA or 3dfx. BUT the features present in the Radeon that ATI would have you belive you absolutely MUST have for the next generation of games are to be taken with a grain of salt IMHO. No video card produced today will be sufficient two years from now. That simply doesn't happen. It hasn't been the case in the past, why should it be the case in the future?

Xayd

[Tiretool]

Just for your info... Most games give you the option to choose which 3d rendering device they use. It's usually in "video options".
The Viper is based on the S3 "Savage 2000". There's a fairly good review of it here.

ATI, up until Radeon, has always been considered the red headed step child of 3D renderers. From what I understand, they have had good "total" packages... but the 3D portion always lagged behind.

I agree with Xayd's comments on the Radeon.

3DFX cards will play games written in all 3 major APIs (Glide, OpenGL, and Direct 3D). It's primary API is Glide so it does a better job on games written in it.. but it does do a good job on all 3. Not sure which version started supporting all 3 but I know the V2 I'm trying to get rid of did an excellent job on OpenGL games, if I selected it to tackle these chores.

In my opinion... if you're on a budget, a Voodoo 3, GeForce 256 with DDR Ram, or even a GeForce 2 MX would probably be your best bets. If you're splurging, go with a GeForce 2 GTS or the Ultra. Both are speed demons and will play any game smoothly.

[Jetboy55]

First, I love honest opinions, so keep them coming. That really helps me to understand the situation. I dont have an AGP slot, my agp video is built in and there's no slot, so much for IBM pc's. I should have expected that, but didnt really know any better at the time I bought the pc. Next time I will build my own.

My only options are a pci card or mobo upgrade, which Im also considering. Ive been thinking about a Asus A7V, TB 900 and GeForce2 GTS, otherwise Im stuck with PCI for upgrade.This would certainly be expensive, like 800$ or so cause I need a case with adequite power and stuff, so its more like a whole computer upgrade.

Im also considering a video capture card instead of just a video card. ATI makes a few all purpose cards like that, but Im sure a capture/video card wont be as good at 3d video as a straight 3d video card. But I cant afford 2 new cards, unless Im doing a whole pc upgrade. Is the Voodoo3 3500 a capture card? I thought I read that the difference between 3000 and 3500 is that the 3500 is a capture card also. I want to capture to MPG2 so I can burn VCD's of home movies so Im looking at that kind of card also. Thanks a million again. Take it easy.

[kraken]

Jetboy
go to http://www.pricewatch.com and plug in
32Mb pci video card
into the search facility and it will bring up a price comparison list for all types of 32 Mb PCI cards.
Found
TNT2
TNT2 M-64
TNT2 Vanta
Voodoo 2 , 3 , 4 , 5
stealth 111 (savage 4) (wouldn't bother)
ATI all in wonders (slow 3D but feature rich)
and some very expensive professional cards.
Plug in
16Mb pci video card
for available 16Mb versions.

Also I have found a PCI gforce card. The CREATIVE 3D BLASTER ANNIHILATOR2 MX PCI. This card has onboard T&L so would help out your average specced system a great deal. This card is retailing (online) for around US$120-130. This is about as good as it gets for the home system at the moment.
http://www.computershowcase.com//pro...&dept%5Fid=331

There is also the ATI RADEON ALL IN WONDER PCI available for approx US$300. This card also boasts T&L and environmental bumpmapping (as seen on the Matrox G400)
http://www.computershowcase.com//fin...ADEON&mscssid=


[Edited by kraken on 11-18-2000 at 11:42 AM]

[Briab Guy]

i thought i was in the wrong section for a sec.
as far as cards go i like the voodoo 5 i have.
i have stuck with voodoo since i started and have had no problems(yet). i have a older pc that has a voodoo 3 pci and it still rocks!
as far as the game, i think i am changing my vote to "RUNE"
this game is is GREAT. to me a good game is when i can't stop! 3am who cares, just 1 more level!
no guns in this one but its none stop.
i usually like flight sim's or first person shooters, so this is a little different. if you "kinda" liked tomb raider, but there wasn't enough action. This is the one for you!

[Tiretool]

From the reviews I've read, the V5 is a good solid card, just barely beaten out by the GeForce 2. The only reason I steered away from it was because 3DFX lost my money when they lagged so far behind in the technology race for such a long time. For a long time the V3 was their top of the heap, even when NVidia had two generations of chip technology over them. Plus 3DFX took so long to implement 32 bit color into their hardware. An option that adds so much to the beauty of most games in my opinion.

Still a good company... but seem to have lost their agressive will to put up a fight in the ongoing video card market.

[Briab Guy]

hey, i AM in the wrong section, i thought this was still the best game of the year.
oh well.
i think its just that they come out with their next card at the same time i have the $ and built a machine. all timeing.
i do agree with you though, they do seem to have lost the edge. i don't pay that much attention to all the current I.T. like i should.